DAlter01

Asbril, if Z-wave was fairly fast it would make my life pretty easy. Maybe I should get a few components and check it out again. My history with Z-wave for lighting is going on 10 years ago. Things have hopefully evolved for the better. I know there is Z-wave Plus. Maybe that helped the speed and the scene/group commands. And, maybe the lZ-wave switch gear I selected 10 years ago to sample wasn't the best. Do you have any devices that are not 100% reliable to a on/off command or that phantom on? How big are some of your group scenes. Do you have 50-75 devices in your lighitng groups that need to respond together and do within 1-2 seconds?

Great info, thank you!

Simplextech, Brilliant on putting in two systems and having them tied together. I think I am getting somewhere. I don't mind the $650 class. I do mind the $210 dimmers, $600 keypads, etc. But, if able to go with Caseta or RA2 Select or finding a way to get wholesle price on the full RA2, there may be a reasonably priced option. But if I read your post correctly, I can have two Caseta/RA2 Select systems and they will essentially operate as "one" under the overall control of an ISY or some other control mechanism similar to how Insteon devices would work? Does the ISY need a Polisy to make the link to the Lutron system(s)? I looked at the chart you sent and for function, I think the Caseta or RA2 Select offers sufficient capability for my needs. I could use the ISY as the if/then/else controller for the logic needs. This, assumes, that Caseta and RA2 Select doesn't allow me to have the abilty to have programmed logic. Is that a true assumption on not having much logic capabilities in Caseta and RA2 select? Also, if do the companion switches/dimmers count toward the device limit or just the load device?

Thanks Mr Bill. If Lutron, with companion switches, I'd have about 150 devices and that pretty much rules out Caseta. I'm not sure about the Caseta Pro, that's the first I've heard of a "Pro" line. RadioRA may also work as it has a higher device number capability. Although, I think it is limited on the number of repeaters and its a big house. More research is in my future to figure all of that out. I agree with Z-wave. Too much effort to put in a system to have the lag and popcorn effect for lighting. I would forever want to figure out how to fix that. My prior house was also all Insteon and was pretty happy with it. I had some Z-wave door locks, a nice Z-wave fan controller, and a Z-wave plug in switch. They all worked reliably but I made a game of guessing how long it would take for the Z-wave devices to respond to the command. I didn't mind it with the items they controlled but it would not have been acceptable for lighting. I just went to the Smarthome site earlier this morning. Guess how many wall dimmers and receptacles they had available for me to buy...... Zero. That's right. The backbone of any system and they don't have any. Wow. They had receptacles in white but with this new house I need Light Almond. I've heard they are thinning out their SKU's but not having switches and receptacles, hmm.... If it were my company, when I run out, rather than cause concern in my customer's mind, I would put up a reponse that said (Due to COVID 19 or Due to unusually high demand, we are temporarily running low on this item. We have orders in production and expect to have new supply within X days/weeks. We appoligize for this inconvenience but rest assured the company is healthy and we are doing everything we can to restock our inventory during this unusual period") But, no, they only tell you they are out of stock of this item and many others. It lets the mind make assumptions.....

Oberkc, that is a low bar, but, yes I suppose it shows the patient has a pulse. If they do intend to stick around, it sure isn't helping them by being so quiet. I'm sure I'm not the only person hesitent to buy many, many thousands of dollars on equipment on Insteon because of their current business decisions.

To all the power users on this forum, you all helped me figure out how to successfully set up a 200 device Insteon house some years ago through this forum. I've since sold the house. My new one has an existing 15 year old Lutron Wireless Homeworks system. It seems the processor, dimmers, keypads, and repeaters don't like LED or alexa integration and have other issues. It seems to make the house function correctly in 2020 it needs a new processor, 6 keypads, three repeaters and about 106 dimmers to the tune of about $30k in parts alone, plus programming. I'm thinking about converting it to Insteon (I do like the Insteon switches better). But, with Insteon being quiet on their product, I'm concerned I'd be throwing money and time at a technology that is about to be abandoned. Are any of you seeing signs of life that may lead one to believe there is about to be a second wind for this company and that it has a future?

Thank you both. I've got some thinking to do....

Ah, I didn't realize everything else can control Lutron. So, it sounds like I can control RadioRA 2 hardware with an ISY to get the higher communications reliability of the Lutron hardware on a programming platform I can understand? Alternatively, if I go the route of the Caseta Pro, is it's LIP similar to the ISY for programming difficulty? Also, is the LIP programming unlocked so that I can bring programmers in and out of the process if I need assistance on that aspect without them "owning" the coding?

I programmed my existing house myself 90+ devices, dozens of scenes and except for one minor issue that I didn't devote enough brain power towards, the programming is pretty good. But, it isn't 100% reliable on responding all the time (the landscape lights will stay on, a light doesn't go out when the "sleep" scene is triggered) etc. It doesn't happen often, maybe a couple times a week I need to push a button twice. On the programming, for the big programmed scenes with 50+ devices, I have the ISY do the scene redundantly a couple seconds apart and and that mostly solves the problem. I think its the proliferation of LED lights causing too much noise.

Thanks Larryllix. That is my concern about the programming turning into a monster with an "if you want to do that, we have to start from scratch...." Or the olddie but goodie "the guy that wrote that code is no longer with the company and we had to spend 8 hours (on your time) figuring out how to accomplish the little change you want to make..."

It would be a radio system, not wired. It's an existing house that I don't want to tear open.

Lilyoyo1 and Simplextech, that all makes sense. So if I were to actually go with an integrator and have them install a Radio RA2 or Control4 system to get that 100% reliablity I'd like to have (and possibly better programming than I can provide), is there a significant disadvantage or advantage of one over the other? I'm not talking about Ford vs Chevy differences but some signficant difference? Are those the two best options for a rock solid system? I probably wouldn't mind having someone else build the major programming systems. It would save me from a lot of mistakes. But, I don't really want to hire a programmer to do everything and have to marry a specific integrator that owns the coding of my house and I can never get away from if/when the service quality drops or triples in price. I enjoy tinkering with the system to a degree. Is there a measurable price difference between the two or is that just contractor specific on how they view/bid the project?

lilyoyo1, So, if I stay with Insteon/Z-wave, rather than the sensor being linked to a responder (insteon method), I would use the ISY as the translator to recognize a Z-wave event and then trigger an Insteon responder? If going that route, is the Z-wave sensor running through the ISY fast enough to use that motion sensor to turn on lights in one part of a house without there being a signficant lag?

Simplextech, Thank you for the detailed and helpful answers. Budget is secondary to reliability but is still a major consideration. Does the RadioRA 2 offer better communications reliability than Insteon likely solving my 1-2% non-responsive issue or do you occasionally still see that with Lutron's system? The 75 device limit of Ceseta Pro is a deal killer as every decision to add devices then has to be weighed against that cap. It becomes a future proofing issue. Funny how Lutron likely signficantly cuts their sales by excluding someone like me who will buy 100 devices. It drives people to Insteon and Z-wave. But.....maybe it helps integrators like yourself? When you say a big cost difference between Lutron and Insteon, is that 30%, 100%, 250%? If 30%-50%, not an issue. More than that..... and the decision gets harder. On the programming, after the half day class am I able to purchase and program the RadioRA 2 equipment? Or, is the RadioRA2 equipment and programming confined to just "real" integrators? Does Lutron integrate with door locks or would I need to control that via a separate Z-wave network? If Lutron doesn't integrate with motions sensors, is there a workaround equipment and logic for turning on a house's lighting and operations only when someone is around? A door sensor doesn't seem appropriate but I'm sure you have thought about this limitation before. Thanks

My existing house has about 90 insteon devices and several z-wave mostly for Schlage door locks and one fan controller and an ISY. BUT, I'm selling it and planning for installing HA at the new house. Being 7 years after I did the mostly Insteon install, I'd like to get some input on the direction to go. Basics: This will be mostly lighting control, door locks, ceiling fans, and a couple of occupancy sensors. It will be a +/- 100 device install controlled by an ISY. Likely not included will be the HVAC control which will likley be through Honeywell's proprietary system and their thermostats, which are excellent. The security alarm will be intergrated into the HA system if that is possible or it will be a standalone application. Currently it is standalone and I haven't looked to see if it can be integrated. The video cameras will likely be Blue Iris and I don't want to integrate any home theater or distributed audio into the HA system. Issues with current system: The Insteon system is 98-99% reliable. Occasionally a light doesn't respond to a command. This typically occurs when the command is an ISY triggered command. However, sometimes a button controlled command will have a device not respond if there are a large number of responders to the button. I've installed noise filters everywhere. I use a handheld radio set to the Insteon frequency to track down noisy electronics that cause interference and I can't seem to get the system to 100% reliability. Maybe that is an unreachable goal considering the many hundreds of responses that occur daily. The Z-wave system seems to be reliable but is only the Schlage locks and one fan controller so it is a very small sample size with limited equipment. And, it seems the Z-wave locks and fan are very slow to respond to commands. It is several seconds. Questions: Is Z-wave viable for lighting control? Does it respond more reliably than Insteon if all other conditions are the same (robust mesh, similar distances and devices)? Does it respond fast enough to be comparable to Insteon or is there a noticeable lag that would make its use unacceptable for lighting for someone accustomed to the speed of Insteon? If you were doing a new full install today for mostly lighting, fan control and door locks, what would you install if money was secondary to reliability (assuming I don't want to turn over all of the programming and set up a Crestron/Control 4 integrator). Is there another system that should be considered? I've never contemplated a Zigbee install. Is it viable for my contemplated uses? Will Lutron's Caseta system solve the reliability issue? I understand Caseta is fast like Insteon but I'd have to figure out how to control it which seems to be a propriety Lutron controller which requires obtaining a license, etc. to install a large system. There is a lot of HA brain power out there. I'm open to ideas. Thanks!

Makes sense, I can see how it would reduce links. Thanks

Did you find that programs provide for a more reliable outcome of device performance vs scenes?

Ok, thanks. I'll keep plugging away with it and see if I can get closer to that 100% reliability goal. I was pretty much there with Houselinc and am pretty close now with just a few more issues that need to be cleaned up here and there. Houselinc had its flaws, most of which could be worked around. Getting rid of it sure has caused me, and I'm sure a lot of others, a lot of work.... The only issue I was having with Houselinc was a random device turning on in the middle of the night for no apparent reason. I suppose that should tell me I have a noise issue lurking out there somewhere...

Teken, You think I'm overloading the communications ability of the system with that my devices firing at once? It seems to work well except for just a couple of spotty devices that seem to be the same ones repeatedly. If I inadvertently press the wrong button and then quickly press the correct one it does get all confused with the scene not being correct. I have to wait 20-30 seconds and start over on the big scenes if I do an inadvertent double tap. In essence, it seems that it has to go through and fire off all the devices and then check their status. If I don't give it time to go through this "process" it will not get the scene correct after doing an inadvertent double tap. Those problem devices might be affected by noise, etc. but I would think I have a pretty strong mesh network at this point as most of the devices are dual band. I haven't yet started the noise elimination/signal sucker process. I wasn't having this issue when I was using Houselinc with the HUB as a PLM so I was thinking my issue wasn't a signal issue and was likely a hardware (PLM) or programming problem.

I've got four different scenes that do that. 1. A 1 am in the morning sweep that goes through and turns everything off, makes sure that all my buttons are off, etc. This is the biggest scene, probably 135+ devices. It is triggered via ISY timer. 2. I have an "all interior lights on" scene that I use when the house cleaners are at the house and I want all the lights in the house on (or any other reason I want all lights on). This scene is controlled via button on 6 button. This one has 90+ devices. 3. A Sleep scene that turns most interior and exterior lights off when I'm going to bed but leaves a couple of lights on that are handy in case I need to go back down the hall, to the kitchen, etc. This scene is controlled via button on a 6 button. This one has probably 130+ devices. 4. A 10:30 pm most lights off scene that turns off the exterior site lighting, pool lighting, most of the interior lights, etc. This one has 90+ devices. Its a big place, lots of site lighting, lots of accent lights on wall art, etc. The house has a ton of solar panels so running the lights in the evening doesn't cost anything.

Well, there you go, guess my system was still doing something. It just came back with a counts of 712 twice in a row. It sounds like I don't have a PLM database issue. Probably a comm issue. Would the scene size be causing the problem? With a 90 device scene is that more than I can safely shove into one scene?

My PLM is a 2413S. It is less than a month old. I've converted a large 148 device existing HA system from Houselinc to ISY. For the most part I've used the same scene architecture from Houslinc for the ISY install. However, with the Houselinc install I was using a Hub gen 1 as my PLM. It didn't seem to have a similar issue with devices not responding to scenes so maybe it has a different link limit than a 2413S PLM. I'm rerunning the device link table a couple extra times to confirm the count as I'm writing this. However, I know I ran the count last week and I don't recall the count but it was roughly 1,500 and this morning when I ran it I had 1,640 and since I've developed the system more since that last count it is consistent. I did the count this morning with the system quiet. I don't think there were any scene trigger events while the count was running.

My PLM Links table has 1,640 links. I believe I've read that it needs to be less than 900 to work reliably. At present I have some communication issues where the ISY is not reporting back the correct status of a few devices. I'm able to reach those devices from within ISY with low hops and I have no problem reaching those devices and controlling them manually from the ISY administrative console, but they are non-responsive within a few scenes. I suspect that my overly large link table is causing the problem. What strategies are there to reduce the PLM links? If I put a scene within a scene will that reduce the links (vs redundantly listing devices individually within two somewhat similar scenes) I am using a fair number of 6 button controllers with those buttons activating large scenes (90+ devices). I suspect a fair number of my links are coming from those controllers. If that is the case is there a known strategy to reduce those links?

Good point, I hadn't made the leap yet that each condition is also a trigger....something to learn every day. I'll have to think about that as I'm writing the code. Thanks... I'll stand by waiting for more nuggets

oberkc, oh, I didn't realize I could refer to a quickstart guide to program my ISY. That would make things sooo much easier. I have spent many hours studying the sources you mentioned and have had a 140+ device install for many years that I previously programmed in Houselinc. Now that I am converting it to ISY I've put in my time relearing the new programming system. In doing that work and putting in those hours I still have not uncovered what I believe to be a comprehensive source for determining what the function of the isy programming words are or where they can be used. Granted I can search around on the forum for explanations and pose questions. That, unfortunately, requires a huge investment of time not just on my part but on those forum readers that have already been down the road and learned similarly. I don't seen anything in the ISY User's guide or their website that I would call anything near comprehensive. For instance, just the word "status". One might think "status" is just a query to determine current state. It is a passive word and taken alone does not imply that within the program the word can initiate action like the word Control. But, it turns out that "status" is actually a word that exhibits control but only when there has been a change of state. Otherwise, it is a passive command that can be queried to see what the current status of the device is to see if it meets a condition. Such a distinction is immensely powerful when programming. I certainly didn't find that in a quickstart guide, the users manual, etc. I could point to several more similar instances of functionality where the programming word such as "status", "control" etc. requires more than one word of explanation as to what the word can do within a program. Maybe there is more comprehensive material out there but I haven't seen it within the quickstart guide, the user guide, the many, many wiki pages I've read through, etc. The forum has provided a lot of color in to what the programming words can do but with going that route it is hard to figure out what I'm missing.