DAlter01

Or more, many, many, more

Contrary to my opinion of a few weeks ago, I don't think Smartlabs is going to discontinue the PLM. I say that because of the reason you state above, but also: 1. They have redesigned the PLM and it is much more robust. They haven't released it yet, but they haven't released any of the products the redesigned at roughly the same time. In the FCC filings, they show approximatly 5 new devices they have redsigned and the PLM is one of them. 2. It is likely their chip shortage is real, and I'm sure they have need to begin releasing their new devices and this is probably diverting resources away from fulfilling orders for lower selling products. And, while important, I'm sure the PLM is not a high selling device. 3. In my recent communication with Smarthome, they actually said the device was on backorder but they expected to have them again. 4. It seems Smartlabs actually has some financial horsepower behind them based on their partnership with Nokia. While they have been frustratingly quiet these last few years causing people like me to suspect they were dying, there was actually a lot going on behind the scenes. I've got to believe the legacy Insteon devices are still profitable and the PLM has to exist or there would be a measurable percentage of sales lost on their profitable Insteon devices.

I've dabled with Z-wave devices and have a dozen or so in my setup. They are working fairly well but are still fairly inferior, in my experience, to Insteon. And, they are limited. For example, I wanted to control the lights in my range hood and bought a z-wave mini inline switch. And, of course, it didn't work being surrounded by a bunch of stainless steel. I finally got my hands on an Insteon mini dimmer and with it's powerline communications it works perfectly. Z-wave may have its day someday as they seem to keep improving it, but it isn't there yet for me. And, maybe with Insteon now having a new lease on life, the dual band protocol and other great features of Insteon will live on with some improvements/refinements. I saw in the FCC filings they intend to release a new MS in the new system. And, the new PLM, if released, has some nice improvements from the specs I've seen. The more I research the new system by Smartlabs, the more I am encouraged.

Maybe someone with some actual customer service experience/training has finally become involved in customer service. I sent a query about the 2413s PLM and got the following response: "Thank you for contacting Smarthome Support. Our apologies for the inconvenience caused. We understand that you would like to know about the availability of our products, we would be happy to assist you further! Unfortunately, we are sorry to inform you that the Insteon PLM (Item # 2413S) is out of stock (backorder) due to component shortages, and currently, we do not have an ETA on when the Insteon PLM (Item # 2413S) will be back in stock, but we are hoping it will be soon. Again we apologize for the inconvenience caused." This is an entirely different response than what I've received before which is "that product has been discontinued due to low sales" or something to that effect. Not warm and fuzzy's like the above statement. Is Smartlabs finally on a better path and one that we can see?

Teken, probably a naive perspective, but I heard somewhere the All-On events were tied to the first gen MS in a low battery condition. True or not, I don't know. I had those events happen a number of times at my old house (it opened the garage door a few times) and it really bothered me. At my new install I only have hard wired second generation MS's and at the five month mark have not had a single All-On event. Problem solved? I hope so.

Yep, agree with all your points. I'm hoping the new devices will work on a prior Insteon system. That would be the best outcome I think anyone can hope for. People like us couldn't imagine living without a good HA system. However, most everyone else is happy with nothing or just controlling a few items. It's hard to put on that other hat and think a company should go in the direction of appealing to a buyer only wanting to control a few items but there is probably a lot of money (probably more money) to be made doing that.

Lock down the topic? NEVER! Seriously though, you make some good points. I do believe this means Smartlabs has the financial horsepower and a strong business plan to take the technology into the next decade or two. Execution, of course, is critical. There are mines along the way that can blow up their business plan, but it can't be denied that the technology has a new lease on life with more money and what seems to be a good vision and partner behind it. However, I'm not convinced there is anything released so far indicating Smartlabs will share its technology. I'm sure Nokia has it and has a clear understanding of it, but that doesn't mean it will be an open platform for anyone other than their partnership to use. One would hope they developed their plan to open it up and extract a fee from anyone wanting to use the technology (true scalability). But, nothing I've seen points in that direction. And, based on how Michel reported his conversations with Rob, there is some evidence it will not be open. Now that the new product has been launched, hopefully that launch will include a process to allow open integration. The next 6-12 months will be interesting. One thing I disagree with, this does not mean the continuation of Insteon. Compared to a month ago when the company hadn't released a press release for three years, ran out of stock of nearly every item, and has stated they will no longer sell a key integration component (2413s) due to low sales, am I encouraged, yes, almost estatic. But, all of the new information is about a different system which borrows heavily on the technology used by Inston, that's it. The new brand may, or may not, work well, with Insteon. So, good for Smartlabs. For Insteon, it is to early to say it will be a viable platform for the next 5+ years. The recent history of fewer and fewer SKU's has already reduced one's ability to build a functional system. If that history continues, which it may, with even just a few more SKU's cancelled, Insteon will quickly become an unworkable platform for "old school" enthusiasts like many on this forum as there simply will not be enough hardware other than dimmers, kaypads, and lamplincs for one to contemplate its continued use, or a new install. If the two techs mesh together, fantastic, but something deep in my head is telling me that a seemless/workable coexistance on the same install seems unlikely. I hope for the best.

I was a bidder on it up to $50 as a back-up to my back-up, I too was shocked at $142 and I bet it goes up another $25 bucks or more. I'd say there are at least two people that really need an PLM now. I know a guy in my area that is currently doing a big install. He had one in inventory so Ok on the PLM but once you are committed to the system, the price of the PLM becomes inconsequential even at $250. That same guy is desperate for a microdimmer, none on ebay at present. I've got a spare. Should I offer it to him for $1,000? (I wouldn't do that but if the old equipment starts going up a bunch, its fun to think of taking out my Insteon and using the proceeds to fullly pay for a new Lutron Homeworks system)

Well don't flood the market, if you do it, release them slowly..... No nead to crash your market price.

Yeah, I have a new backup unit, its tempting to sell it for a few hundered. But, I might need it more than anyone else at some point in the future. I know you say they will have them again to sell but the word from Smarthome (last I heard) is they have discontinued it. I doubt that is accurate and just made by a low level customer service flunky, but it is a warning of what could, or may have, happend.

There is an older used 2413S PLM on ebay right now with the high bid at $142 with a day left so it should go higher, maybe a lot. If Smartlabs has not abondoned the serial PLM it seems they could be making a few dollars selling them. I know, chip shortage.....

I don't see any reference to the Bridge having a serial port and I somehwat doubt it does. Hopefully they have not abondoned the serial modem in their future plans, though it seems to be looking that way. Those used serial PLM's are going to skyrocket in value, I suspect.

All good points though. Of course Smartlabs should not stay still. They have to improve or the company dies. I was hoping incremental improvement that would support the old tech. That may be what they are doing or intend to do. Or, it could be a signficant upgrade (it sounds somewhat signficant), and old tech may not mesh well. Like I suggested, the next 6-12 months should be interesting. Hopefully my Insteon investment doesn't get orphaned soon. It will, of course, someday. But, hopefully not within a couple years. If it does, life moves one. The system does everything I want it to do as of right now. Someday I'll probalby feel like it was unbelievably poor tech. I get that it is old, but the marriage of Insteon and the ISY works unbelievably well, even if it has been around a while.

Yep, I was reflecting back on that. He was pretty clear that UDI and Smartlabs are going down different paths. And, if I read his statements correctly, he wasn't planning on reverse engineering on how to get UDI equipment working with new Insteon gear(again). I can't say as I blame him. If UDI doesn't need Insteon why not pursue easier paths to success. Hopefully, Smartlabs was just trying to keep things quiet until they were ready to launch and now they will open up their tech. But, from what Michel was saying, it sounded like Rob wasn't inclined to have an open system that integrated.

I wasn't complaining or saying there IS a problem. This is a forum where we get to talk and banter, and that is what I'm doing. I could just sit here and read posts but no, I prefer to talk, speculate, read other posts such as yours and possibly learn from you and others or see another perspective, modify my views, etc. Hopefully, these posts help you see other's perspectives also, and view it the same or similarly I didn't put in a large Insteon system and spend oodles of time creating a lot of slick programming, that I'm rather proud of, only to have it become an orphan system within a year. If the C-suite at Insteon decides to orphan it that is not a positive step for something I spent a lot of time and effort to build. I don't think they intend to do that....yet. But, its pretty clear that after the announcement today that the focus of the company is not Insteon. So, when push comes to shove, if difficulties emerge, and a tough decision needs to be made, Insteon gets the axe. I think that is pretty obvious. Do my devices instantly stop working, no. But, that isn't the only point. Having a dead system where new parts are not availabe, IF that happens within a few years, isn't a positive development. With regards to lifespan, in certain catagories of houses having a slick, functioning, and supported lighting/logic system is expected. Having an orphan system means the next buyer will have to spend $150k+ for a Lutron or other system (parts, install and programming). Yes, of course I expect the system to be orphaned someday. I hope that it doesn't occur soon. I'd like the lifespan to be 10 years. Why is that hard to understand? Why would I have spent all the time and money on my equipement and programming if I didn't expect it to have value and last for 10+ years. Maybe some people dont' care, but that isn't me or people like me. That investment of time and money should have a lifespan, or that is the hope. When it doesn't happen, it is a disappointment. This isn't a cell phone or a TV which are standalone devcies. The system is an integral part of the function and value of the structure.

Yes, looking forward to moving over my 145 devices, sounds cheap and fun...... And, in a few years you state, that's not generous for products that should function for 10-15 years. For some reason, I'm not looking to tear apart my system that is working perfectly and that I've got lots of money and my precious time invested in setting up. My situation doesn't mean anything to the C-suite at Smartlabs but it does to me. I don't care about what is right for Smartlabs and they don't care about what is right for me. But, my wants are for my system to be operable and fixable for 10+ years.

Yep, that is my take. Though, if Smartlabs make the two tech's able to work together, they may find themselves with more exposure and some people will want more customizable devices/features, and then there could be more demand for the tried and true Insteon making Smartlabs motivated to spend time/money on it and bring it back from the bottom shelf to the middle shelf.... Nah, nevermind, that isn't going to happen. I suspect it will go the way of X10 with a slow decline until one has to ask "Can you still buy that stuff anymore?"

Us current heavy users have lots of hopes they will keep the Insteon brand in a healthy operating condition to service our needs going forward. While I expect they will do that, there are no guarantees. And, the new tech may be conceived as able to interface with Insteon, that may prove to be a challenge. We all have seen companies make decisions that are hard to figure out. I too hope this works out well, but, as I mentioned, the next 6-12 months should be interesting as some of the unknowns become known.

I see it that way also. I do, however, expect them to put all their effort towards the new line given they have largely ignored the Insteon brand of the technology for a number of years. I think their silence towards the Insteon brand shows their focus and direction. The Insteon line may stay on the shelf for those that want to buy it but I don't expect any new products or updates coming. If the new line of equipment proves to be backward compatible with the core insteon products such as dimmers, motions, and keypads, then it may prove to be a good sequence for the current customer base. I'm not sure if there is a path for Smartlabs, but many companies attempt to force an existing customer base into an update/upgrade with new tech incrementally for obvious reasons. I suspect the C-Suite at Smartlabs has thought long on hard on how to do this to all of us. There may or may not be such a path for them. The next 6-12 months should be interesting.

I was encouraged to see in the paddle switch specs that the product could have its software/firmware updated. Maybe the new line has some security features, etc. No info in the press releases thus far on the above topics. Details are scant.

My take: Nokia isn't driving the buss on this. They are putting out their good name in order to make the product appeal to the masses as this new product is designed to be a simple consumer oriented line. And, for that, they get a piece of the action. Nokia will be making few, very few, decisions. This is just my opinion but I've been around the block a few times and believe that is how a structure like this is likely configured.

Well, the cat is out of the bag. Smartlabs has finally released their NextGen product cobranded with Nokia. They do say some Insteon devices will work with the new hardware, though not a first launch. I guess we now know where their focus has been. Below should be a link to an article/release. But, if it doesn't work, just search Insteon and Nokia and a bunch of articles on the lauch will pull up. Nokia Teams with Smartlabs to Launch Nokia Smart Lighting - CE Pro So, is Insteon dead, my opinion, not yet. They will milk it for years to come as long as it is profitable. But, I doubt they spend another dime of R&D or updates on that brand. The end is coming, but not here yet. Now we know why Rob and company have been so quiet. And, we know where all the chips have been going. They have been diverted to building their new Nokia line of hardward.

Being only an ISY user, am I to understand that a Polisy can now replace/emulate the ISY as a next gen version of the ISY? I do need Z-wave on my ISY and I believe I read in a post above it does not yet support Z-wave through the ISY emulation? Sorry if these are rudimentary questions, I've mostly not paid attention to discussion on the Polisy as the ISY has been able to do everything I've attempted to accomplish and I also read Polisy was not able to incorporate the ISY functions and migrate programming so it didn't draw me in. Sounds like it is time to start looking at it as an ISY replacement/upgrade?

I guess that ends the fun in speculating in that bit of hope I, and others, had. That being said, UDI does seem to be a quality operation and the talent creating that operation would likely do a fantastic job with the Insteon brand.

From my end I don't see where they spent even $1 of that additional money. Nothing at the end user level changed, it only went downhill.