DAlter01

Oh, I don't fault them one bit. I would do the exact same thing. Lutron, C4 and the integrators all have businesses to run profitably and for the reasons you state they need to protect their avenue for earning that profit. I'm all for that. My objective, as I'm sure you can appreciate, was to get a very high quality system that I could program and tinker with. Price wasn't the primary driver, but was considered to a degree. For the most part as quality and features go up, the ability for an end user to tinker with it by the "customer" goes down. That is understandable but takes away part of my objective. I'm very satsified with the Insteon/ISY I ended up with but would have loved to put in a nice Homeworks system that was more appropriate to my home. But, I wouldn't have been able to do everything I wanted to do relying on my local integrators. While both the Lutron and C4 systems are more than capable, the integrators I've encountered in my local market wanted to keep the system pretty basic in its programming. I'm sure that is to cut down on non-billable service calls when the complex programming requests I had didn't work out as intended. Again, I don't fault them, it is just a constraint I needed to find a solution for. The Ra3 system appears to retain the legendary Lutron quality but also takes a step to provding more capability and openess to allow a prosumer like me to be able to purchase and program it for a large complex install. I don't know enough about Ra3 yet, but that is my perception. I'm contemplating building a new custom home and have been thinking about the automation options and think Ra3 is in contention should I move forward. I would not put Insteon in my next house as it is going down a path of obsolescence and Nokia is not geared towards the Prosumer, at least not yet.

@mrbill was talking about making a friend with a Lutron licensed electrical contractor to get access to some of the "limited" availabilty Lutron stuff at a price less than full retail. This is what i was asking if he was volunterring for. When I did my house early this year, for what I wanted to do and the size of my system, my choices seemed to be Homeworks, C4, or Insteon/ISY. I really wanted to have a Lutron system because of its sterling reputation in upper end homes and the fact it "just works". C4 seemed to be off limits since someone has to be a "real" C4 installer to purchase and program C4. But, the Lutron contractors I found in my area (Scottsdale AZ) were very protective of their turf. They were not going to sell hardware for a system they were not going to program and maintain. Could it have been made to work with Ra2, maybe, but if I recall correctly they were telling me I needed Homeworks due to my system size and to get the type of programming I wanted. Truth in that? I can't answer as I don't know enough about it. As I read more about Ra2, maybe it would have been sufficient. Then, there is the full retail price for Homeworks, well, that was a hard pill to swallow. In the end, I did another Insteon/ISY system and am very happy with its function and reliability. The downside is that Insteon is being retired sooner than I anticipated. While not gone yet, some of the unique helpful devices are already discontinued and the end of Insteon as a viable choice for a new install is not as favorable is it was at my decision point in January 2021. Fast forward to today, from my brief reading of the Ra3 literature, it seems to be a nice evolution and might be the way to go for me if I were deciding today. If the Ra3 system is the solution for a hypothetical new install, I would be looking for a licensed contractor willing to let me buy Homeworks or Ra3 at something less than full retail price. Thus, the question on a volunteer. Still confused?

Are you volunteering??

I'll wager it will not be there. It would be a security mistake and defeat the purpose of having the more secure LEAP coms. Like you say, Ra2 and Caseta will be around for a while, that seems to be the product you need to use for your legacy Telnet installs.

Computers and the internet are older than email. They are not bad either. But, both have gone through monumental improvements to make them more secure, as has email. Telnet, not so much. LEAP is that evolution to make the process more secure. It was inevitable that it would be superseded.

It is great stuff, no question on that. And, seems to be getting better.

Yeah, I really don't think Lutron views this as just a light switch and that is all it will ever be. The technology needs to be scalable and standardized enough to make it secure as part of a much larger automation landscape that is surely coming in the next few years. As an integrator, I'm suprised there isn't a recognition that continuing to use Telnet hamstrings a wider adoption and integration of the equipment and impedes progress towards automation.

Agreed. It seems Lutron thinks it is time to move on from Telnet on their new products. I understand your point about it being "hard to hack". However, that really isn't good enough for some corporate/business/government environements. And, they may have plans to do more with their products to have them more fully integrated with other processes and, if so, they need to make sure the security standards are consistent across product lines so they can talk to each other.

Even though readers of this forum many not know of an instance of a Lutron system being hacked through Telnet it certainly has occured and Lutron would know abou it. If in the remote chance there hasn't been a known hack from the outside, rest assured the software designers at Lutron have preached continuosly to upper management about the significant risks they are taking by having a system that can be hacked by a 5th grader. Lutron would be foolish to not evolve their system away from an antiquated protocol that was developed over 40 years ago and has been hacked when used in other applications. Failure to recognize known risks and take industry standard practices to minimize security risks is not a strategy a successfuly company like Lutron would follow. Successful companies evolve to address known issues, this is an example of that. Companies that do not evolve their product line to known risks expose their company and their customers to liability and often times fail because of that stagnet strategy. Further, having a system that can be easily hacked will keep their system from being selected by those customers who are security consious or have uses where security is essential, which means lost sales. Lastly, the company likely intended to adopt a security protocol that extends to more than Ra3 and is supported by the next evolution of equipment that currently exists or will exist in the future to allow interoperabilty between a broader range of equipment and functions than just Ra3. In other words, its likely they have a "strategy" of how to grow their business in a world that requires more security and having equipment that can work securly with different lines/types of equipment is a forward thinking strategy that can ultimately allow more growth than we envision if we are thinking only of home lighting automation. Lutron likely has a much bigger vision.

Since I don't fit the other boxes well, I figure I'm a beginner Prosumer. If you are in the same Prosumer "group", you are teaching an advanced degree on ths subject and at the top 1/10th of 1%. It's nice that you identify with us "little" people.

Hardcore hobbyist prosumer that integrates and has a good sense of humor. A man of many talents.

Though, in looking at the "definitions" you are not a Prosumer.....

Life is WAY to short to try and work all of this into a multi-room audio system. Since there are probably only three people in the United States that would want to pay to make all of this happen, the demand for the capabilities to make this happen within the separate systems isn't going to exist for a long time (maybe never). If I were to describe to an integrator that I wanted to make all of that happen and for it to work perfectly, I suspect my phone calls would stop being returned. Alternatively, they would think, Ok, we can do it, I'll have one of my guys start working on it full time. In about 18 months, we should have a working prototype. Can I get a retainer of $250k to get started on the initial phase of development. In about 6 months, I should have a basic strategy worked out at which time I'll bill for the next phase of development.

I'll admit, I had to look those up. So, I guess I was over-reaching.

While not describing my needs/evolution to being a Prosumer perfectly, you have summarized where I fit well.

All I can say is "Wow". The Ra3 system appears to be a fantastic evolution. Insteon is now one step closer to being the new X10. I am assuming, of course, that Ra3 will continue the Lutron tradtion of "it just works". This is what the Nokia line wants to be.

None of us know the future with certainty. But, my perspective from what I've read and scene is that Insteon will continue but all investment to expand it has stopped. There will be no new products being launched. They will only continue to sell key high demand items, and eventually demand will be low enough that Insteon will be no more. And, that will likely be many years down the road. The company's focus is on the next generation product, the Nokia line. Hopefully the new line will be backwards compatible with the legacy Insteon line. Early reports are that this backward compatibility will occur, though, until it happens, one never knows. Also, unless they build a PLM or USB modem for the Nokia product and give UDI the necessary information for UDI to interface with it, the new product line may not be viable for the uses this forum's users have need for. Early reports are there will be a PLM and/or USB modem in the future but there isn't word yet on giving UDI the necessary information. They have filed with the FCC for such device but nothing definitive has been announed regarding it being manufactured or released. There isn't much point in building a PLM or USB modem unless you open it up to outside services like UDI so I think there is a fair chance of them building that PLM and opening it up. But, the Nokia brand has supposedly stated they are focusing on creating a retail presence before attempting to make the devices desirable to us "power" users. So, if it is going to happen, I suspect it will be 1-2 years away, not just a few months. All of the above may be accurate or none of it. But, from all I've read, the above are my conclusions and perspective. Would I build an Insteon system from scratch today. Maybe, but with the understanding it is a gamble as it is certainly on the back end of its lifespan. It might be 2 years, 10 years, 15 years, before it is completly gone. Nobody knows how long it will last as I'm sure it is 100% sales related. When it isn't profitable, it will be done. They will not spend any money to stimulate demand or attempt to grow that side of their business. The devices themselves will certainly last for well over 10 years which is a good long life. The only exception may be the PLM. I've got two back-up units and two of the capacitor replacement kits.

Does it average over a period of time to smooth out the reading? In a completly different context, I've seen monitoring systems that smoothed out readings to make them more user friendly so the extreme readings were hidden. If, and it is a big if, the system smooths the data, that 128 could have be 150, 180, 200 momentarily.

But, I guess you already knew that. Disregard.

I've lived in So California and Arizona. We don't get the power outages you get. We had maybe 3-5 in California which were widespread outages not related to nearby equipment failure) so I don't think I was at risk for that equipment failure causing a problem at my house. And, in Arizona, we really don't get power outages at all, knock on wood. If your power is dropping off a bunch and it is very localized, it is entirely possible that your PLM is getting abused by whatever nearby utility equipment is dropping off/on during those momentary outages.

But four PLM failures that is a bunch. I suspect some of those four failures would not have occured if installed at my house or Mr Bill's house. So assuming that is true, it is something related to your incoming power or within your house (if my theory is true). I'm sure those lightening strikes are at least partially responsible for surge/signals that are hard on the PLMs. Do you have solar and have had it for the duration? If so, might it be causing dirty power? It caused a ton of line noise at my prior house so you might want to put it on the radar as a possible susupect..

Was thinking the same thing. That being the case, wouldn't solar inverters also have the potential to cause dirty power as they are creating their own waveform? And, other non-typical powerline signals/noise? I know that on my prior house I had a bunch of panel mounted micro inverters and they were causing a ton of line noise which was affecting my Insteon powerline communications. We got that cleaned up with some ferrite rings on the mains coming back from the solar panels.

So, it sounds like the UPS could potentially be causing the early failure on @Mustang65PLM? In my houses I've been hooked up direct without a UPS and have had no problems whatsover. In my prior house, a prior owner had installed a whole house surge supressor many years before. It may, or may not, have been functional but I figured it didn't hurt to leave it there. In my new house, there is no protection whatsover and I've not had any issues at all. And, both houses have had about 150 devices each. I've had to factory reset a couple devices over 9 years when they stopped working but I don't think I've ever had a device I had to replace. That is roughly 300 devices with about 1/2 of those going back 9 years.

Hmm, I'm far for knowledgable on the subject but I'd sure put that voltage level monitor to work. Losing several PLMs seems to be pointing to there being an outside issue that is causing the PLM failures.

Must be the case. If I had a PLM go bad, I'd invest in some power conditioning equipment to avoid having that become repetitive. At present, never having one go bad on its own, I haven't seen the need to make sure my power is clean.