DAlter01

To all the power users on this forum, you all helped me figure out how to successfully set up a 200 device Insteon house some years ago through this forum. I've since sold the house. My new one has an existing 15 year old Lutron Wireless Homeworks system. It seems the processor, dimmers, keypads, and repeaters don't like LED or alexa integration and have other issues. It seems to make the house function correctly in 2020 it needs a new processor, 6 keypads, three repeaters and about 106 dimmers to the tune of about $30k in parts alone, plus programming. I'm thinking about converting it to Insteon (I do like the Insteon switches better). But, with Insteon being quiet on their product, I'm concerned I'd be throwing money and time at a technology that is about to be abandoned. Are any of you seeing signs of life that may lead one to believe there is about to be a second wind for this company and that it has a future?

Thank you both. I've got some thinking to do....

Ah, I didn't realize everything else can control Lutron. So, it sounds like I can control RadioRA 2 hardware with an ISY to get the higher communications reliability of the Lutron hardware on a programming platform I can understand? Alternatively, if I go the route of the Caseta Pro, is it's LIP similar to the ISY for programming difficulty? Also, is the LIP programming unlocked so that I can bring programmers in and out of the process if I need assistance on that aspect without them "owning" the coding?

I programmed my existing house myself 90+ devices, dozens of scenes and except for one minor issue that I didn't devote enough brain power towards, the programming is pretty good. But, it isn't 100% reliable on responding all the time (the landscape lights will stay on, a light doesn't go out when the "sleep" scene is triggered) etc. It doesn't happen often, maybe a couple times a week I need to push a button twice. On the programming, for the big programmed scenes with 50+ devices, I have the ISY do the scene redundantly a couple seconds apart and and that mostly solves the problem. I think its the proliferation of LED lights causing too much noise.

Thanks Larryllix. That is my concern about the programming turning into a monster with an "if you want to do that, we have to start from scratch...." Or the olddie but goodie "the guy that wrote that code is no longer with the company and we had to spend 8 hours (on your time) figuring out how to accomplish the little change you want to make..."

It would be a radio system, not wired. It's an existing house that I don't want to tear open.

Lilyoyo1 and Simplextech, that all makes sense. So if I were to actually go with an integrator and have them install a Radio RA2 or Control4 system to get that 100% reliablity I'd like to have (and possibly better programming than I can provide), is there a significant disadvantage or advantage of one over the other? I'm not talking about Ford vs Chevy differences but some signficant difference? Are those the two best options for a rock solid system? I probably wouldn't mind having someone else build the major programming systems. It would save me from a lot of mistakes. But, I don't really want to hire a programmer to do everything and have to marry a specific integrator that owns the coding of my house and I can never get away from if/when the service quality drops or triples in price. I enjoy tinkering with the system to a degree. Is there a measurable price difference between the two or is that just contractor specific on how they view/bid the project?

lilyoyo1, So, if I stay with Insteon/Z-wave, rather than the sensor being linked to a responder (insteon method), I would use the ISY as the translator to recognize a Z-wave event and then trigger an Insteon responder? If going that route, is the Z-wave sensor running through the ISY fast enough to use that motion sensor to turn on lights in one part of a house without there being a signficant lag?

Simplextech, Thank you for the detailed and helpful answers. Budget is secondary to reliability but is still a major consideration. Does the RadioRA 2 offer better communications reliability than Insteon likely solving my 1-2% non-responsive issue or do you occasionally still see that with Lutron's system? The 75 device limit of Ceseta Pro is a deal killer as every decision to add devices then has to be weighed against that cap. It becomes a future proofing issue. Funny how Lutron likely signficantly cuts their sales by excluding someone like me who will buy 100 devices. It drives people to Insteon and Z-wave. But.....maybe it helps integrators like yourself? When you say a big cost difference between Lutron and Insteon, is that 30%, 100%, 250%? If 30%-50%, not an issue. More than that..... and the decision gets harder. On the programming, after the half day class am I able to purchase and program the RadioRA 2 equipment? Or, is the RadioRA2 equipment and programming confined to just "real" integrators? Does Lutron integrate with door locks or would I need to control that via a separate Z-wave network? If Lutron doesn't integrate with motions sensors, is there a workaround equipment and logic for turning on a house's lighting and operations only when someone is around? A door sensor doesn't seem appropriate but I'm sure you have thought about this limitation before. Thanks

My existing house has about 90 insteon devices and several z-wave mostly for Schlage door locks and one fan controller and an ISY. BUT, I'm selling it and planning for installing HA at the new house. Being 7 years after I did the mostly Insteon install, I'd like to get some input on the direction to go. Basics: This will be mostly lighting control, door locks, ceiling fans, and a couple of occupancy sensors. It will be a +/- 100 device install controlled by an ISY. Likely not included will be the HVAC control which will likley be through Honeywell's proprietary system and their thermostats, which are excellent. The security alarm will be intergrated into the HA system if that is possible or it will be a standalone application. Currently it is standalone and I haven't looked to see if it can be integrated. The video cameras will likely be Blue Iris and I don't want to integrate any home theater or distributed audio into the HA system. Issues with current system: The Insteon system is 98-99% reliable. Occasionally a light doesn't respond to a command. This typically occurs when the command is an ISY triggered command. However, sometimes a button controlled command will have a device not respond if there are a large number of responders to the button. I've installed noise filters everywhere. I use a handheld radio set to the Insteon frequency to track down noisy electronics that cause interference and I can't seem to get the system to 100% reliability. Maybe that is an unreachable goal considering the many hundreds of responses that occur daily. The Z-wave system seems to be reliable but is only the Schlage locks and one fan controller so it is a very small sample size with limited equipment. And, it seems the Z-wave locks and fan are very slow to respond to commands. It is several seconds. Questions: Is Z-wave viable for lighting control? Does it respond more reliably than Insteon if all other conditions are the same (robust mesh, similar distances and devices)? Does it respond fast enough to be comparable to Insteon or is there a noticeable lag that would make its use unacceptable for lighting for someone accustomed to the speed of Insteon? If you were doing a new full install today for mostly lighting, fan control and door locks, what would you install if money was secondary to reliability (assuming I don't want to turn over all of the programming and set up a Crestron/Control 4 integrator). Is there another system that should be considered? I've never contemplated a Zigbee install. Is it viable for my contemplated uses? Will Lutron's Caseta system solve the reliability issue? I understand Caseta is fast like Insteon but I'd have to figure out how to control it which seems to be a propriety Lutron controller which requires obtaining a license, etc. to install a large system. There is a lot of HA brain power out there. I'm open to ideas. Thanks!

Makes sense, I can see how it would reduce links. Thanks

Did you find that programs provide for a more reliable outcome of device performance vs scenes?

Ok, thanks. I'll keep plugging away with it and see if I can get closer to that 100% reliability goal. I was pretty much there with Houselinc and am pretty close now with just a few more issues that need to be cleaned up here and there. Houselinc had its flaws, most of which could be worked around. Getting rid of it sure has caused me, and I'm sure a lot of others, a lot of work.... The only issue I was having with Houselinc was a random device turning on in the middle of the night for no apparent reason. I suppose that should tell me I have a noise issue lurking out there somewhere...

Teken, You think I'm overloading the communications ability of the system with that my devices firing at once? It seems to work well except for just a couple of spotty devices that seem to be the same ones repeatedly. If I inadvertently press the wrong button and then quickly press the correct one it does get all confused with the scene not being correct. I have to wait 20-30 seconds and start over on the big scenes if I do an inadvertent double tap. In essence, it seems that it has to go through and fire off all the devices and then check their status. If I don't give it time to go through this "process" it will not get the scene correct after doing an inadvertent double tap. Those problem devices might be affected by noise, etc. but I would think I have a pretty strong mesh network at this point as most of the devices are dual band. I haven't yet started the noise elimination/signal sucker process. I wasn't having this issue when I was using Houselinc with the HUB as a PLM so I was thinking my issue wasn't a signal issue and was likely a hardware (PLM) or programming problem.

I've got four different scenes that do that. 1. A 1 am in the morning sweep that goes through and turns everything off, makes sure that all my buttons are off, etc. This is the biggest scene, probably 135+ devices. It is triggered via ISY timer. 2. I have an "all interior lights on" scene that I use when the house cleaners are at the house and I want all the lights in the house on (or any other reason I want all lights on). This scene is controlled via button on 6 button. This one has 90+ devices. 3. A Sleep scene that turns most interior and exterior lights off when I'm going to bed but leaves a couple of lights on that are handy in case I need to go back down the hall, to the kitchen, etc. This scene is controlled via button on a 6 button. This one has probably 130+ devices. 4. A 10:30 pm most lights off scene that turns off the exterior site lighting, pool lighting, most of the interior lights, etc. This one has 90+ devices. Its a big place, lots of site lighting, lots of accent lights on wall art, etc. The house has a ton of solar panels so running the lights in the evening doesn't cost anything.

Well, there you go, guess my system was still doing something. It just came back with a counts of 712 twice in a row. It sounds like I don't have a PLM database issue. Probably a comm issue. Would the scene size be causing the problem? With a 90 device scene is that more than I can safely shove into one scene?

My PLM is a 2413S. It is less than a month old. I've converted a large 148 device existing HA system from Houselinc to ISY. For the most part I've used the same scene architecture from Houslinc for the ISY install. However, with the Houselinc install I was using a Hub gen 1 as my PLM. It didn't seem to have a similar issue with devices not responding to scenes so maybe it has a different link limit than a 2413S PLM. I'm rerunning the device link table a couple extra times to confirm the count as I'm writing this. However, I know I ran the count last week and I don't recall the count but it was roughly 1,500 and this morning when I ran it I had 1,640 and since I've developed the system more since that last count it is consistent. I did the count this morning with the system quiet. I don't think there were any scene trigger events while the count was running.

My PLM Links table has 1,640 links. I believe I've read that it needs to be less than 900 to work reliably. At present I have some communication issues where the ISY is not reporting back the correct status of a few devices. I'm able to reach those devices from within ISY with low hops and I have no problem reaching those devices and controlling them manually from the ISY administrative console, but they are non-responsive within a few scenes. I suspect that my overly large link table is causing the problem. What strategies are there to reduce the PLM links? If I put a scene within a scene will that reduce the links (vs redundantly listing devices individually within two somewhat similar scenes) I am using a fair number of 6 button controllers with those buttons activating large scenes (90+ devices). I suspect a fair number of my links are coming from those controllers. If that is the case is there a known strategy to reduce those links?

Good point, I hadn't made the leap yet that each condition is also a trigger....something to learn every day. I'll have to think about that as I'm writing the code. Thanks... I'll stand by waiting for more nuggets

oberkc, oh, I didn't realize I could refer to a quickstart guide to program my ISY. That would make things sooo much easier. I have spent many hours studying the sources you mentioned and have had a 140+ device install for many years that I previously programmed in Houselinc. Now that I am converting it to ISY I've put in my time relearing the new programming system. In doing that work and putting in those hours I still have not uncovered what I believe to be a comprehensive source for determining what the function of the isy programming words are or where they can be used. Granted I can search around on the forum for explanations and pose questions. That, unfortunately, requires a huge investment of time not just on my part but on those forum readers that have already been down the road and learned similarly. I don't seen anything in the ISY User's guide or their website that I would call anything near comprehensive. For instance, just the word "status". One might think "status" is just a query to determine current state. It is a passive word and taken alone does not imply that within the program the word can initiate action like the word Control. But, it turns out that "status" is actually a word that exhibits control but only when there has been a change of state. Otherwise, it is a passive command that can be queried to see what the current status of the device is to see if it meets a condition. Such a distinction is immensely powerful when programming. I certainly didn't find that in a quickstart guide, the users manual, etc. I could point to several more similar instances of functionality where the programming word such as "status", "control" etc. requires more than one word of explanation as to what the word can do within a program. Maybe there is more comprehensive material out there but I haven't seen it within the quickstart guide, the user guide, the many, many wiki pages I've read through, etc. The forum has provided a lot of color in to what the programming words can do but with going that route it is hard to figure out what I'm missing.

Thanks all, lots of programming options it seems once one understands what the different programmer words actually do. In reading through the manual I couldn't find that kind of detail/explanation. Did I miss it in the manual or is it mostly a trial and error process to learn how the different program words work within the program?

Does "switched bright" or "switched dim" compare the current setting of the device to the scene generated setting of the device to allow me to determine if one or more of the devices on the scene has been manually adjusted?

Just so I understand in case of future issue, if I used a dual band device to couple my phases wouldn't I use up some (or one) of my hops? With a large house wouldn't the risk of running out of hops potenitally be an issue where using the hard wired phase coupler allow me the freedom of using that hop or hops for reaching the devices by RF when/if the power line connection failed/had noise, etc.?

I am trying to set up day and evening lighting scenes that are triggered on and stay on based on motion. When there is no motion for a couple hours the scenes should then go off. That is easy enough to accomplish except that when I manually change the lighting level within that motion controlled scene it keeps getting reset by the ISY to the programmed light level whenever motion is detected. My objective is that when I happen to do a manual change to the light level (after a motion on event) I want the light level to stay at that manual level until the no motion time out event. The scenes each have 25+ lights so putting in code to check each device for a "dim" level would be cumbersome. I'm not creative enough to figure out how to do this through programming. Is there a way? One idea I had was to put in a dummy switchlinc that gets turned on via program by the motion detectors with that program having a timer to turn off the switchlinc when there wasn't motion for x hours. Then, I would use that switchlinc to be the control in a program to turn on and off the lights when that switchlinc comes on and off. This way, I don't think my manual changes to the light levels would be changed by the program. But, to do this, I think I have to put in multiple switchlincs to handle the transition from day scene to evening scene in order to obtain a new control on event for the evening scene. If I try it with just one switchlinc I don't see where I create the new on event to trigger the evening scene. I figure you guys may have addressed this before.....thoughts?

After adding phase bridges to each of my subpanels (4) it seems that all of my communication issues have resolved. I occasionally get a device that doesn't respond when I'm writing data to a big scene but that issue seems to self resolve immediately. I'm not having any memorable issues of devices not responding during normal operations. It seems that the issue I was experiencing was related to relying on the old X-10 phase bridges that were installed by others in the main panel. That was just too far for the signal to travel without degrading. Having the phase bridges within the subpanels has strengthened the network. Thank you paulbates and Teken for the help.