craigf Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 I just replaced my old 2413s with a new one since my old one died after 2 years and 3 months. So much for a 2 year warranty! When I replaced it, I plugged in the new PLM, waited a few seconds and then plugged in the ISY. I then opened the admin console and went under file and choose "Restore PLM". It did its thing for a little while. The performance of the systems as far as reliabilty seems poor. If I run the event viewer and turn on various lights, I am not getting any events captured. Many of my programs are triggered by keypad events so my programs are not getting triggered. Also, when starting the admin console, many times I get communication errors with various switches, other times I don't get errors. Is there something else I should be doing to integrate the new PLM? Should I restore the ISY to a previous date and try and reset everything? Is it probably just a bad new PLM? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 How long did the Restore Modem (PLM) run? It takes a long time to change every link record in every device that had the old PLM address to the new PLM address. It sounds like those changes have not been completed. Run a Show Device Links Table for a device that is not reporting state changes. Look for active link records (starting with A2 or E2) that have the old PLM address. Do any of the devices have a Green Icon to the left of the node indicating updates are pending, particularly RF only devices? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigf Posted February 21, 2013 Author Share Posted February 21, 2013 It did not take very long to create the links. I have about 25 devices and it took about 3-4 minutes. There are no updates pending, all of the icons have the white icon. I only have one RF device (motion sensor) and it was a little troublesome but it seemed to take after I tried the restore a second time. I will try reviewing the device link tables. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Click Tools | Diagnostics | PLM Info/Status. Verify the new PLM Insteon address is being displayed. 3-4 minutes would not be enough time to fix 25 devices unless they were all very new I2CS devices and I'm not sure even those could be done in that short of time. With intermittent comm. problems now what was the problem that resulted in the PLM being replaced? The Show Device Links Table will confirm if the device has been updated with the latest PLM address. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Was the old PLM Deleted before installing the new PLM and doing a Restore Modem (PLM)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigf Posted February 21, 2013 Author Share Posted February 21, 2013 No, I didn't delete the old one first. Good Point! Now, how do I clean up that mess? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xathros Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 No, I didn't delete the old one first. Good Point! Now, how do I clean up that mess? Thanks. This is a GOOD thing. It means the ISY still knows what should be in the PLM! Otherwise, a backup would have needed to be restored before doing the Restore PLM. -Xathros Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 What did the Show Device Links Table indicate. Hard to establish a solution without knowing for sure that the actual conditions are. What does Help | About show for Firmware and UI? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigf Posted February 21, 2013 Author Share Posted February 21, 2013 The device link tables do not show the new PLM address in them. I don't have the old PLM handy right now so I don't know if the old PLM address is one of the ones in the table, but the new PLM definitely is not in the table. The old one was intermittent and now it won't even power up so it is dead. The Firmware and UI are both v.3.3.10. It is an isy 99. So, it would appear that when I did the restore, it didn't write the new address to many of the devices. I have tried the restore a few times. The old PLM worked without any problems until its rapid death. It started getting intermittent on Saturday, I unplugged it, plugged it back in and it worked for a couple hours. I recycled it like this for the next couple days until finally it doesn't power up (meaning the LED didn't turn on when plugged in). I got the new one on Monday (luckily Smarthome is local). I plugged it in, hooked up the ISY and then tried the restore. It didn't take very long for the restore. Should I delete the PLM and try a new restore? Thanks for the help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Do not Delete the PLM. That would make a bad situation worse. Do a Show ISY Links Table for the same device the Show Device Links Table was done. If the ISY Links Table has the new PLM address then a Restore Device should fix that device. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigf Posted February 21, 2013 Author Share Posted February 21, 2013 Lee, The ISY links are all empty (one entry with an address of 00.00.00). There are 27 PLM links. And then one of the devices that is having problems has 9 links (none of which are the new PLM). I would like to mention that I have a recent backup if that is any help. Can I use the backup to get things straight? Thanks, Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 That was not expected. It looks like the ISY deleted the PLM. Yes, restore a good backup taken before the PLM replacement process. The ISY Links Table should now exist with link records containing the old PLM address. When that is confirmed do a Restore Modem (PLM) which will be driven by the restored backup file. That should restore the devices and new PLM to the needed information. The Restore Modem (PLM) will run much long than 3-4 minutes. Perhaps hours depending on how many pre-I2CS devices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xathros Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 LeeG- FWIW, I just replaced my failing 2412S with a 2413S last week. With my 120 nodes it took at most, 20 minutes to restore PLM. Then another 20 with me running around to my 2xRL2's 8xMS and 4xTriggerlincs putting them into linking mode and writing updates one at a time. Hours seems like a long time for 25 devices even with some complex scene relationships going on. -Xathros Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Let’s hope it is that quick. From the looks of things, the ISY Links Table showing no links, it may be necessary to write every link record from scratch rather than changing the 3 bytes of PLM address. The difference between 7 commands per link record per device versus 17 commands per link record per device. Of course for any I2CS devices it will be one command per link record. I don't know what a device link database looks like after the ISY has Deleted a PLM or what the ISY will think it needs to do in this case. I'm unwilling to Delete a PLM to find out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xathros Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 I don't know what a device link database looks like after the ISY has Deleted a PLM or what the ISY will think it needs to do in this case. I'm unwilling to Delete a PLM to find out. If I get a chance this weekend, I'll power up my old 99i with my backup 2412S and delete the PLM and see what we get. Got nothing to lose there since the very next step for that unit is a factory reset anyway. Currently it is at 3.2.6 with about 60% of my current device list in it's link tables. -Xathros Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Thanks, that would be good to know. I just don't want the OP to think the next Restore Modem (PLM) is hung up or looping because it is taking a long time and reboot or power cycle the ISY thinking that is the only solution. Rather think it could take hours and be much shorter than pull the plug on a working restore. I've let another product spider my main house which does have considerably more than 25 devices. It took a very long time just to read the link database of every device. It is not the ISY or PLM that I am concerned about when Deleting a PLM. It is the effect on all the device link databases I worry about. Restoring an ISY or rebuilding the PLM link database are relatively quick operations. Having to rebuild all the device based link records that reference the PLM, one byte at a time over the power line is what I have concerns about. I would like to know the impact if you do decide to wipe out all device knowledge of the PLM. The ISY might just mark each link record inactive which would be very quick to accomplish. That would mean the ISY would only have to restore 4 bytes per link record to reestablish a new PLM after a Delete. Don’t know if the ISY is that trusting. I don’t think I would be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyMike Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Let’s hope it is that quick. From the looks of things, the ISY Links Table showing no links, it may be necessary to write every link record from scratch rather than changing the 3 bytes of PLM address. The difference between 7 commands per link record per device versus 17 commands per link record per device. Of course for any I2CS devices it will be one command per link record. Is the ISY capable of replacing only the PLM address in the linked devices?? It's been quite awhile since I've performed a "replace PLM". I haven't watched the detailed event viewer to see what was written. With 108 nodes and many I1 units the process takes hours (2412S, ISY99I). I had thought that the "replace" speed was a function of the Insteon module vintage (I2 vs I1) and the number of KPLs/scenes used. I just ran a link record scan of my V.39 I2 KPL with 93 link records: 1) I2 mode: 1:56 2) I1 mode: 14:19 (quicker than I expected) I can't understand how Xathros could restore 120 nodes (I2 or I1) in 20 minutes. Has something changed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 I don't have an event trace of a Restore Modem (PLM) that is replacing a PLM. I have replaced a PLM but did not have the event viewer active at the time (one of those wish I had moments). I don't know if the ISY will limit a PLM address change to writing only three bytes. This particular case is more an unknown because I believe the old PLM was Deleted (no ISY Link table records). Whatever the length of the restore process it needs to run to completion whether that takes 30 minutes or hours to accomplish. We both have a good understanding of what link database management involves using Peek/Poke. Even with a good Insteon network it is inevitable with such a large volume of messages some failures will occur. The ISY is good at reestablishing the necessary Set MSB/Peek sequence to allow the link record write process to proceed. However, each of those restart sequences just adds to the volume of messages and the total time required. I might be willing to accept the risk of forcing I2 but I have devices that indicate an I2 Engine that do not have support for I2 link database management. Trying to walk a user through that process with those possible exceptions in not something I want to try to do over through the forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyMike Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Hello Lee, Thank you for the quick response. I agree on all counts. My post was in response to my amazement that Xathros could restore 120 nodes in 20 minutes. I was thinking that something might have changed in the ISY restore process. I also have devices that will fail a "forced" I2 protocol. I agree that I would not propose this to the casual user and have modified my previous post accordingly. Sorry to have diverted the thread off topic... IM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigf Posted February 22, 2013 Author Share Posted February 22, 2013 At this point I have no idea as to what is going on. I have 2 backups available, one is 3.3.4 and the other is a 3.3.9. When I try and do the restore, everything seems to go OK but after I reboot, clear the java cache and reopen the admin console, the ISY is still on v 3.3.10. I don't know why it wont restore properly, both backups do the same thing. I have ordered the upgrade to a 994 that I should have later today. At this point, I think I will give up on the 99i and just switch to the 994. What would be the proper procedure to implement the new 994 and PLM? how do I get the ISY synced with all of my devices and then get my programs imported? I appreciate all of the help. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Restoring a backup does not change the installed ISY firmware. If the 3.3.10 for Firmware and UI had changed that would be a problem. Whether using the 99i or 994i, you have the same problems. Restore 3.3.9 backup which brings back the ISY configuration information, devices, Scenes, Programs, etc. Run Restore Modem (PLM). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigf Posted February 22, 2013 Author Share Posted February 22, 2013 Lee and others, thank you for your help, but it is time for me to vent. I am utterly disgusted with this whole thing! I have spent a fair amount of money on all of the insteon products and the ISY. Everything was working ok and then 3 months after the warranty on the PLM expires, it fails. That is pretty crappy. I understand warranties, but to have a product that fails just after warranty expires leaves a bad taste. I have had at least 3 other insteon components that I have had to replace shortly after the warranty expires that have me thinking. I know that the designers can't predict the life of components that precisely, but this is becoming routine. Now, just replacing the PLM for me has become a complete pain. I understand some of the complexity, but the fact that I can't just replace the bad component and hit a restore is annoying. Now it gets better, I spend more money to upgrade to the latest version of the ISY. I receive it and plug it into the system and guess what, no power light. I check everything, still no good. The light on the power supply is on, but the ISY, nothing. I get the old power supply from the ISY 99, plug it in the new ISY994, and it comes to life. REALLY???? A new ISY 994 shipped with a bad power supply? If I didn't have and old power supply, how much more pissed and confused would I be? I am almost at the end. If I didn't have so much money invested, I can assure you it would be in the trash. If I didn't have some experience of how well it worked before, it would be in the trash. I don't know what to do at this point, I don't even remember how to start from scratch since that is what seems to be the only thing I can think of. I feel that this is really due to the poor quality of Insteon products but the ISY does not seem to be helping matters, especially getting shipped with a bad power supply. Between backups, restoring PLM's, restoring things. This almost isn't worth it, but I have spent a fortune. I guess it's time to take a couple of days off to forget about it, and maybe start from scratch somehow. As I said above, how disgusting it has gotten to this point. I appreciate the help that everyone on this board has offered, but it just doesn't seem like this will be getting fixed soon. How disappointing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 craigf I think the power supply that came with the 994 is Okay. The outer diameter of the rubber barrel is slightly larger requiring more pressure to fully insert the plug into the 994. Whether using the 99i or 994i power supply, did you try running the Restore Modem (PLM) after installing the 3.3.9 backup? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xathros Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 My post was in response to my amazement that Xathros could restore 120 nodes in 20 minutes. I was thinking that something might have changed in the ISY restore process. IndyMike- To be fair, the 20 minutes was for all line powered devices. There was an additional 20 or so of updating the battery powered devices. That and I did say 120 NODES not Devices if that makes a difference to your thinking. Most of my KPL buttons drive programs rather than scenes so I may not represent the typical setup. And, I have very few I1 devices left and about 40% of my devices are I2CS. Total 60 devices not counting the 2 new Zwave devices that weren't there for the restore. EDIT: Zwave is irrelevant here as those devices are dongle dwellers and are not in the PLM links table. EDIT2: My PLM Link count is: 247 -Xathros Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigf Posted February 22, 2013 Author Share Posted February 22, 2013 Lee, After I restored the 3.3.9, all of my devices and programs were there. The isy device table were still empty for most of my devices. The PLM device table was also empty for my devices. The device tables showed links for both the old and new PLM. I did a Restore PLM but again it only ran for about 3-4 minutes. As with before, it didn't fix anything. I then went to a switch that only had the two PLM links in it and used the event monitor as I turned the switch on and off and it did not see any events. I then pulled a bone head move and accidently clicked on Restore Devices instead of Restore ISY and now it has cleared all of my devices and all of their links. The switch that I had been testing with still didn't send any events to the PLM. I then deleted the device from the ISY and readded it. The switch now works properly and sends the on off events. So, it appears that I need to delete all of my devices and readd them. Is there an easy way to do this? Another curious thing is the new 994i/IR does not seem to have the IR input module in it. There is just a big hole where it should be. The box is clearly labeled 994i/IR so it isn't like they sent the wrong one, it is just missing the IR module. So I guess I need to figure that out also. As for the AC adapter, I pushed it in pretty firmly since I just couldn't believe that it didn't work. I will put a voltmeter on it to verify but I think I am just having a run of bad luck! Thanks for your help. Please let me know if you have any ideas of how to expedit removing and readding my devices. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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