YW84U Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 I'm afraid my PLM has died again. My first one was a 2412S rev 2.75 bought in early 2008. Worked wonderfully with no indication of pending failure until July 2010 when it just quit altogether. At that time, I bought a new replacement one - a 2413S v 1.0 (922) which again has been flawless until about a month ago - I discovered some of my links were corrupted, and it took me a while to try and restore it back to working after several resets. Looks like as of tonight, it has packed it in completely - the LED is very faint, ISY reports being in safe mode, and unplugging/rebooting has no effect. Patch cable is still good, and the ISY is powered via a wall wart. It would be wonderful if Smarthome is willing to step in and assist, but I'm not sure how they respond to units out of warranty? Has anyone experienced goodwill with regards to similar circumstances? Unless I am the only one to have bad PLM luck (and am doomed to buy a new one every time it's +7 months out of warranty), has anyone else experienced anything similar? I'll obviously have to spring for another one unless there is a way for me to diagnose and repair components in the unit - does anyone know what the main failure point is for these units? Any thoughts or suggestions in this regard are greatly appreciated! Cheers, Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwagner010 Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 Just replaced my 2412s after 6 years. It wasn't dead but I was starting to get comms errors. Maybe I was just lucky with it lasting so long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xathros Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 I just replaced a 2412S about a month ago after 4.5 years of flawless operation. It started locking up and I was having to reboot it about once a week. Didn't bother trying to get them to replace it. -Xathros Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arw01 Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 The irony is, they would probably last longer if they were on a surge protector! I doubt their power regulation components are of high quality in there. I have a spare laying around I bought off Ebay just for such an eventuality, you could always take a look for a leaky cap in there. Possibility of extending the warranty with square trade too on the next one you buy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YW84U Posted March 23, 2013 Author Share Posted March 23, 2013 Well, new PLM arrived, and the replace process via ISY went perfectly! Took all of maybe ten minutes or so -boy, I would hate to think what it would have been like if I were stuck with the manual 'tap tap link' method In the next while, I may conduct an autopsy on the former PLM to see if I can find anything out as to the failure. If I do find something worthwhile, I'll make sure to report back. Cheers, Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian H Posted March 23, 2013 Share Posted March 23, 2013 The 2412S has a power transformer and a 5 volt linear regulator in it. Along with the raw +12 volts that was usually in the 18 or more volt range and a small charge pump circuit. That generates the +30 volts for the power line transmitter. The 2413S has a switch mode supply in it. There is a schematic of the 2412S in the Developers Guide page 54. The older version of the guide was on line maybe in error. http://www.aartech.ca/docs/2412sdevguide.pdf I have one of the original 2412S PLMs that was in a EZIO8SA kit. Firmware 24 and it had a fatal bug. When you did a factory reset. The PWM signal from the controller IC went constant On and the FET in the charge pump circuit was conducting all the time. FET overheated and shorted. Then the low resistance of L1 pulled down the raw +12 volts and many times became a smoke emitting device. Never checked to see if the PWM signal eventually started after the FET was already shorted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted March 24, 2013 Share Posted March 24, 2013 Well, new PLM arrived, and the replace process via ISY went perfectly! Took all of maybe ten minutes or so -boy, I would hate to think what it would have been like if I were stuck with the manual 'tap tap link' method In the next while, I may conduct an autopsy on the former PLM to see if I can find anything out as to the failure. If I do find something worthwhile, I'll make sure to report back. Cheers, Tom Tom, Could you please provide the firmware and production date of the new PLM. Also did you purchase it from SmartHome or Aartech? Teken . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted March 24, 2013 Share Posted March 24, 2013 Teken I received a new 2413S PLM from Smarthome two days ago External label on back 2413S V1.B 1305 Firmware v.9B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YW84U Posted March 25, 2013 Author Share Posted March 25, 2013 Tom, Could you please provide the firmware and production date of the new PLM. Also did you purchase it from SmartHome or Aartech? Teken . . . I just took a look, and it is: -2413S - V1.B -1252 9B is the firmware reported, and the unit was purchased through Aartech ordered last week. Brian - Thank You so much for the Dev Guide! - I've DL'd it and hope to take a look in the next couple weeks once my work pressures calm down a bit. I haven't even opened the failed unit yet, but when I did the swap I did notice that the casing felt unusually warm near the center bottom-third of the label on the front. I'm unsure of what component is there, but my first hunch was to suspect a voltage regulator. I still have the 2412 kicking around, so I might autopsy both of them and see if I can learn something new! Cheers, Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 Just out of curiosity what exactly is missing inside of the new 2413, vs the 2412 PLM's? Because one is literally twice the weight than the other? Thanks for the firmware / production date confirmation. I just want to make sure I get the latest batch as I need it as a fail over unit. Teken . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 The power supply is different. Not only the 2413 PLM, most of the pluggable devices have the new power supply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian H Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 The 2412S/U and Hardware V1.? Access Points {to name a few} used a heavy power transformer and linear regulators. The 2413S/U and Hardware V2.? Access Points {to name a few} use a power line driven switch mode power supply with a much lighter power transformer. The switch mode supply is also less power hungry when idling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 Great info and insight thank you both. Teken . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian H Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 I have to modify my previous statement. I am not sure if it is my meter not being a true RMS type is an issue. I just tested an old V1.0 Access Point and a V2.5 Access Point. The old V1.0 drew less AC current than the V2.5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 I have to modify my previous statement.I am not sure if it is my meter not being a true RMS type is an issue. I just tested an old V1.0 Access Point and a V2.5 Access Point. The old V1.0 drew less AC current than the V2.5. Brian, What are we talking about in terms of power difference? Half a watt? Teken . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian H Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 I believe that due to power supply designs my simple multimeter readings maybe flawed. 121.2 VAC V1.0 Access Point 32.3 MA. About 4.03 watts 121.2 VAC V 2.5 Access Point 44.7 MA. About 5.43 watts. Both where way to low for my Kill-A-Watt to read accurately. Both said 1 watt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ELA Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 Hi Brian, A True RMS meter ( or better) is required to measure the 2413's switching power supply. As you pointed out the older 2412 had a linear supply and the 2413 is a switcher with a pretty noisy nonlinear current waveform. Here is a scope picture I took a while back of one of mine: You could probably approximate a sinewave from the graph above and calculate the RMS for comparison? Wow ! I went to post and you had just posted your figures as I wrote. So from my waveform I might approx. about 20 ma RMS for around 2.5 watts? This of course assumes a power factor of 1. Since I did not record the voltage waveform back then I could not say that is true for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian H Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 Thanks for the photo of the waveform and verifying my readings where not a accurate power reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YW84U Posted March 30, 2013 Author Share Posted March 30, 2013 Okay, if I did not have bad luck, I seem to would have no luck at all ISY went into Safe Mode today and lost communications with the new PLM just purchased. I did the usual troubleshooting of Factory Reset PLM, swapped Cat5 cables with known working ones, and several ISY reboots. The Rx LED stays solid no matter what, and it looks as though the PLM is down for the count. I'm currently sending an RMA to Aartech to see about replacement. I'm puzzled by the failure - is there any other troubleshooting steps I may have missed? Cheers, Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 Do you have a Serial Port on a PC that the PLM can be connected to directly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ELA Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 Hello YW84U, I would believe you wouldn't have no luck at all What are the symptoms other than the ISY lights? Does seem strange to be losing so many PLMs? Can you attempt to communicate with the PLM via a terminal program to see if the RS233 comm portion is indeed dead? If the PLM is indeed gone then I wonder if you might have something electrical on the circuit that produces a severe transient when turned off? Any motors, fluorescent fixtures etc in close proximity to the PLM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YW84U Posted March 30, 2013 Author Share Posted March 30, 2013 Hi Lee, Unfortunately, I've evolved from having 13+ PC's kicking around the house - down to only a couple with newer boards that don't sport any serial ports I should set about getting an internal usb->db9 bracket one of these days to at least give me some more options in the future! As for symptoms, the previous failed device was working well up until the reliability started going flaky a few months back. In order to troubleshoot, I piggybacked the old PLM onto an older unused Appliancelinc in the hopes that it would boost the signal. This in fact did work well, until two weeks ago ISY kicked into Safe Mode. Right away, I noticed that the LED was extremely faint green. After various unplugging, factory resets, Isy reboots, swapping cat5, I could only get ISY to Safe Mode via applet or telnet. When I unplugged the PLM, it did feel a bit warm towards the label side. I swapped it out for the new one last week, and the restore PLM and reprogramming of all of the RF stuff went flawlessly and was now 100% reliable. I did leave the new PLM piggybacked onto the older AL just to ensure that the signal would have its best chances. The system lives in behind rack space in my basement theater as seen in the pic. There are no major suspects on that AC circuit - the PLM is on the left direct into the outlet, and the other plug is the power strip/UPS for my projector and audio gear. The switch on the left of the PLM is for the small 50w bulb used to light up the back of the rack room. The PLM is connected via the red cat5 running up to ISY just above the gigabit switch, which then links up to another GB switch I have upstairs in my office and so forth. The only devices in proximity to the ISY setup are the usual receiver/dvd/IR repeater/ and game console electronics - and the rear of the rack space is vented using a small thermo controlled 4" fan that is fed using one of the audio receiver's spare two prong AC outlets. I put in a new 200 amp panel and pretty much new wiring over the past two years, and have all of the 'heavy appliances' and heat pump type gear all on the opposite leg from my regular branch circuits. This pic gives an idea of the gear that is physically and electrically close to the PLM and ISY: As for symptoms of the recent failure, I noticed about two days ago there were some 'misses' for triggers from one or two of my 2420M's - the ISY logs showed them being registered and the proper on/off being issued, but the lights would sometimes not respond. I was going to spend the day checking into this, and also install a KPL upstairs that I had been putting off for a while. I turned off two breakers in order to get safe setup for the KPL install, one of them controlling the basement rackspace as pictured. Once power was restored, then it became apparent that the PLM was no longer communicating whatsoever - and so, I started going through the troubleshooting steps....and here we are I would hate to think that a power cycle would kill a PLM; if that were the case, I'm certain that we all would have to replace them a few times a year . But really, I'm thinking that the first one failed of a power supply failure (weakened LED, warmer temps felt on the casing), and that the second is likely just a one-off for quality control for one of the components. The recent failed one shows a bright green LED (or red during reset) and seems to have no heat issues; there is nothing obvious to show it is struggling. ISY keeps the Rx light lit during reboots and cable changes, and cannot authenticate to the PLM whatsoever. A true mystery for me, but I certainly appreciate everyone's responses and insight as I muddle through this! Cheers, Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian H Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 Power Strip with an UPS. If the power strip has surge suppression or the UPS has an AC Line side noise and surge suppression. They can absorb Insteon and X10 power line signals. A suitable filter like the Filterlinc maybe needed. If both outlets are on the same branch circuit. Stacking the PLM on top of the Appliancelinc could lead to added heat from the Appliancelinc getting into the PLM. The older hardware 1.?? ones get very warm all by themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oberkc Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 Is your theater system filtered? I wonder if it is generating some type of spike or low voltage. I wonder if putting it on a UPS (filtered) would help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ELA Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 It is very difficult to say why your PLMs would die. I would however suggest that you do not piggyback them to a AL. Smarthome recommends against that practice and with a brand new PLM it is a hindrance. Each Insteon device presents a load to the sender (PLM in this case) so the AL adds no benefit unless it is used to switch a load? It will serve to increase heat build up on the PLM. Do you have a filterlinc on all that home entertainment equipment (UPS)? If not definitely add one or more. One or more of those devices are surely signal suckers and signal suckers load the PLM ( possibly excessively). Two others beat me to it so consider this a 3rd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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