How to disable KeypadLinc LEDs from ISY?

[shannong]

Here's what HL shows with debug logs when turning off the LEDs. It says it's setting it to "0" but I can't decipher the Data field of the message to actually confirm that.

 

013-12-16 11:40:46,724 [38] INFO - Master LEDs Off: Keypad with Dimmer

ON / OFF - Turn LED off

2013-12-16 11:40:46,724 [38] DEBUG - Setting backlight of Keypad with Dimmer 29.4D.2F to 0 ...

2013-12-16 11:40:46,724 [38] DEBUG - Tx: Ext Msg, To: 29.4D.2F, Flag: 1A (Hops: 2/2), C1: 20 (Set Operating Flag), C2: 08, Data: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 D8

2013-12-16 11:40:46,747 [42] DEBUG - Rx: PLM Ack, 02 62 29 4D 2F 1A 20 08 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 D8 06

2013-12-16 11:40:46,747 [38] WARN - PLMDataProcessorCommand Write timeout of 1500 milliseconds

2013-12-16 11:40:46,747 [38] DEBUG - Calculated wait time: 6523 ms, no retries=False, hops left=2

2013-12-16 11:40:46,747 [38] DEBUG - Starting WaitforReply, wait time: 6523

2013-12-16 11:40:47,195 [42] DEBUG - Rx: Std Ack, From: 29.4D.2F, To: 23.9A.7C, Flag: 26 (Hops: 1/2), C1: 20, C2: 08

2013-12-16 11:40:47,195 [38] DEBUG - WaitforReply, signaled

2013-12-16 11:40:47,195 [38] DEBUG - WaitforReply, returning sendResult..

2013-12-16 11:40:47,195 [38] INFO - Successfully sent Turn LED off command to ON / OFF.

2013-12-16 11:40:47,195 [38] INFO - Master LEDs Off: Keypad with Dimmer

ON / OFF - Turn LED off Success

[shannong]

I don't really care what HL is doing. I only care about being able to turn off the LEDs with ISY without affecting scenes.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello LeeG,

 

Thanks so very much for all your help and support.

 

If one thinks HL does a good job of abstracting, then one would really have a hard time with ISY abstractions since - at least in the case of scenes - ISY pretty much abstracts scenes to the point that one would not have to go through tabular relationship between devices.

 

As far as LED brightness - and thanks to LeeG - the missing piece is adding a command to turn LEDs completely ON and completely OFF. I have added this to the list of our requirements with low priority.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[shannong]

 

As far as LED brightness - and thanks to LeeG - the missing piece is adding a command to turn LEDs completely ON and completely OFF. I have added this to the list of our requirements with low priority.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

Obviously I'm new to HA, Insteon, and ISY.

 

Is this KPL new and is "LEDs Off" a new feature and concept not previously considered such that it would not be included when this device was included in the "supported" list by the ISY994i?

 

It's frustrating for me because it's such a basic concept to consider regardless of device and especially to me knowing this specific device supports it.

[Michel Kohanim]

shannong,

 

I am sorry you are frustrated. Unfortunately "basic" is subjective and, as you can see in the forum, it has not been basic enough otherwise there would be 100s of requests by now.

 

Just like any other company, we prioritize our development based on most important features needed. This was not one of them.

 

As I mentioned before, this is in our requirements list and we shall have it implemented based on our priorities.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[shannong]

shannong,

 

Unfortunately "basic" is subjective

 

l

 

Agreed.

 

I was operating under the false assumption you implemented all the BASIC and EXTENDED features of a device when you added to ISY. I now know that is not the case.

 

However, On and Off are a universally basic. Varying degrees of on and off (dimming) would fall into the subjective area of "basic". You got the On and dimming yet left out Off. That's basic. Regardless of how many people want it.

[Michel Kohanim]

shannong,

 

I am afraid that I am going to get dragged into a futile, protracted, philosophical, and pedantic discussion and waste the time that can be otherwise used for development. As such, I shall ignore further comments on this topic and get back to work. I know what you want. Period.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[Brian H]

shannong, Unfortunately when you are dealing with Smartlabs. Basic features is a very slippery slope.

I have been using Insteon since 2005 and a member of their Developers Group for about the same length of time.

I have seen basic features added and change many times in the same basic model number. Just a different Hardware Revision or Firmware.

Many times with no information at all. Things just changed.

So seeing every model and revision work 100% will probably not happen.

Even in their own HouseLinc Software. You may find things not 100% supported.

 

There is a users findings web page that shows some of the things we have found. Like some can be set to a 9 minute ramp rate while 8 is the maximum in others.

http://www.madreporite.com/insteon/Inst ... e_list.htm

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Brian, thanks so very much for the details.

 

Thanks to untiring help/support from LeeG and his HouseLinc traces, this feature is now included in our next firmware release to be out in couple of weeks.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[shannong]

Hi Brian, thanks so very much for the details.

 

Thanks to untiring help/support from LeeG and his HouseLinc traces, this feature is now included in our next firmware release to be out in couple of weeks.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

Sweet! And so fast, too!!

 

Thanks. That'll make Xmas more merry for me. And thanks to LeeG.

 

Right now I have HL still running only for the purpose of triggering an event from my MiniRemote4 to turn off the LEDs and turn them back on in the morning. It took quite a bit of tinkering to get working properly since the KPL and MiniRemote are simultaneously managed by two different systems. They both execute programs that include the KPL with the same button press on the remote.The HL instance sees a bunch unrecognized links and it was tricky to avoid overstepping each systems links. Probably would be problematic for me in the long run.

 

Once I can do this from ISY then I'll be decommissioning the HL instance and make my life much simpler.

[EricK]

I guess I do not understand this issue or terminology. It seems that what is wanted is what I have working. What I have set up in my movie room is two KPL buttons, scene 1 and scene 2. I do not want these buttons to be on, however, both are set to non-toggle on. I created another scene, Movie Scene KPLs off, added both kpls buttons as responders, and then set the on level for the KPLs to off (although I think on would work).

Then there is a program. If kpl scene1 or scene2 is pressed, then turn scene "movie scene kpls off", and the button that was pressed turns off, despite being a non-toggle on. I think I posted this before, and did add a delay of a few seconds in the program. I do not have the kpl backlight completely off buttons are off.

Eric

[shannong]

I guess I do not understand this issue or terminology. It seems that what is wanted is what I have working. What I have set up in my movie room is two KPL buttons, scene 1 and scene 2. I do not want these buttons to be on, however, both are set to non-toggle on. I created another scene, Movie Scene KPLs off, added both kpls buttons as responders, and then set the on level for the KPLs to off (although I think on would work).

Then there is a program. If kpl scene1 or scene2 is pressed, then turn scene "movie scene kpls off", and the button that was pressed turns off, despite being a non-toggle on. I think I posted this before, and did add a delay of a few seconds in the program. I do not have the kpl backlight completely off buttons are off.

Eric

 

At night when I go to bed I don't want ANY LEDs or backlights on including the On/Off buttons. Furthermore, I don't want to turn off the scenes that might be active when the LEDs are shutoff.

 

For example, Scene A is to turn my ceiling fan on High. If I used your approach, when the A button is shutoff so would my ceiling fan but I don't want my ceiling fan turned off. Also, the Off button of the KPL which is quite large would still be lit.

[EricK]

Ok, so you have a 6 button kpl. I have 2 now, the other 9 are 8 buttons. I do not like to have the off button LED on ever. I know when the load is off so why do I need a big OFF button lit up. You can keep this button pressing and holding the button until it beeps, then again, then again.

Regarding the A LED. Since this is a 6 button KPL (I hope), A is not physically connected to the load. Create a scene, "KPL buttons off". Add the kpl buttons as responders of the scene. You can make the responders on. Make a program, "Turn KPL buttons off" to run on a schedule, or have it run thru a time range.

Example:

If

Time is 9:45:00PM

 

Then

Set Scene 'Theater / Movie Scene KPLs off' Off

 

Else

- No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

Let me know if this is what you are trying to do.

Eric

[madcodger]

Hello LeeG,

 

Thanks so very much for all your help and support.

 

If one thinks HL does a good job of abstracting, then one would really have a hard time with ISY abstractions since - at least in the case of scenes - ISY pretty much abstracts scenes to the point that one would not have to go through tabular relationship between devices.

 

As far as LED brightness - and thanks to LeeG - the missing piece is adding a command to turn LEDs completely ON and completely OFF. I have added this to the list of our requirements with low priority.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

FANTASTIC! Except for the low priority part... Those [insert favorite adjective/expletive here] lights on KPLs are a huge WAF problem for many of us, and I've hesitated putting one in our bedroom because when we had them there in the old house I could almost read by the things. I have one in a box now that I'm still not sure about as it's on the boss' side of the room and she values her sleep. I think you would find this to be a feature that would be used more often than most of us realize once the WAF stories started rolling in.

 

And FWIW, I absolutely love my ISY and tell that to many. But UI is not its strong suit. Mobilinc and other interfaces can address that for mobile devices, but for actual hardware this is an opportunity to make a difference, Michael. The capability is there from SH, but we need your help to make use of it. IMO, there's more here than you guys are yet realizing in terms of opportunity to make ISY shine (even more). You already own the "hearts and minds" of us geeks. Now how can you help us popularize your little device with the other "objects of our affections"? This might go a long way toward that.

 

Just an old marketing guy's two cents...

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi madcodger,

 

Already implemented and will be in 4.1.2.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[Teken]

Michel,

 

In case no one said Thank You.

 

I, and the rest of the ISY community would like to extend our gratitude and sincere thanks for the endless hard work and development of the ISY. More than three years ago I coined the phrase that the ISY was an investment.

 

That statement was true then, and is very much so now.

 

Teken . . .

[shannong]

I said "thanks" but will say it again.

 

Thanks!!

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Teken, thanks so very much. It does mean a LOT to all of us here.

 

shannong, you are welcome!

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[madcodger]

Hi madcodger,

 

Already implemented and will be in 4.1.2.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

Thank you! Excellent news, and I suspect it will pay dividends. And as others also note, you folks are amazing at customer support. World class, and greatly appreciated, I just wish you made more stuff to buy! There are many companies that could learn from you.

 

Joe

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Joe,

 

Thank you, very much appreciated, and posts like yours make it ALL worthwhile.

 

Thanks again and with kind regards,

Michel

[racekarl]

Michel,

 

I also wanted to say thanks for the fast response to this, it's neat to see how the ISY has evolved even in the short time I've owned one.

 

The strange thing for me is that I already seem to be able to completely turn off the LEDs of my 6 button KPLs, even though I am still on 4.0.5, but I seem to have only very limited (binary) control over them.

 

Unless I am missing something, setting the KPL6 main device to "non-toggle On" in the ISY, then setting the LED brightness Off level to 0 allows all the buttons on my 6 button KPL to be off when all linked scenes are off. I even run a program to turn the LED brightness Off level to 0 during the day and 1 at night, which works as expected.

 

The thing that puzzles me is that no matter what numerical setting I use, I cannot change the apparent brightness of the buttons. Any number greater than 1 lights them dimly in the Off mode, and similarly any number greater than zero lights them a little bit brighter in On mode, but there is no variation in either brightness based on the numbers 1-15 for either on or off mode. I've tried setting the overall device brightness as well as individual buttons, but the effect is always the same.

[LeeG]

racekarl

 

The newer devices treat those On/Off numbers as a combined On percentage value, not an On and Off level. For example

 

Off=3 On=10

 

is really a hex number of 3A which is a percentage of On level rather than an Off/On definition. Changing the low order digit (what the Admin Console describes as On level) has a relatively small effect that may require taking off the button cover to observe small changes. It is also easier to see the changes the low order byte makes when viewing the KeypadLinc in low level lighting.

 

Setting the backlight level applies to all buttons on the KeypadLinc. An individual KeypadLinc button backlight level cannot be set.

 

This is the command issued when setting the above 3A definition

 

Fri 01/17/2014 05:49:14 PM : [iNST-TX-I2CS] 02 62 22 8B E0 1F 2E 00 01 07 3A 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 90

[racekarl]

Thanks for the quick reply Lee, but I admit I am still confused. If those settings combine to create a "percentage of on" when is that percentage adjustment applied? Is that to say that the on brightness is fixed, and these two settings combine to set the "off" level as a percentage of the fixed on value?

 

What I would ideally like to do is create a program so that during the day, the off level is off (no light) and the on level is pretty bright (so it can be seen in daylight). At sunset I would like the off level to be dim but noticeable so that people can see and read the buttons, and the on level to be probably a bit dimmer than the daytime on level. Sort of like how the dashboard lighting works in most modern cars.

 

Thanks

[LeeG]

The backlight On level is what is being defined. The button Off LED level follows the On level. The Off LED level is approx 8 increments below the button On level. Have a few buttons On and a few Off and watch how they look as the various backlight On levels are set.

 

The change in backlight level is immediate (as fast as the ISY can issue a command and the command reach the KeypadLinc).

 

Set Off=1 On=15 (1F); then set Off=2 On=15 (2F); then Off=3 On=15 (3F). The max that can be set is Off 7 On 15 (7F) which is 100% backlight On level. As the backlight On level increases, so does the backlight Off level.

[racekarl]

Lee,

 

Thank you very much, I just sat and played with the backlight levels on my KPL6s and I think I'm getting it. So, when you say the Off level is about 8 steps below the on level, are you referring to decimal numbers? Any setting I put in with off = 0 results in the LED being off all the way up to On=15 (which I assume is hex F).

 

e.g. 01 - 0F = LED is not lit when OFF, 15* small increments of ON brightness above that

10-1F = LED is lit at minimum brightness when OFF, 16 small increments of ON brightness above that

 

*00 is treated as a special case

 

Is that generally correct? So if I understand this thread correctly, the change in 4.1.2 is that 00 now will have the LEDs off in all situations as opposed to today (4.0.5) where 00 results in some factory default brightness setting?

 

Does that also mean the 1x is results in the minimum LED illumination when OFF? If true that's a minor disappointment since it's still a bit brighter than I'd like.

 

Thanks again!