Problems between 2413S and 2477D

[kaphely]

Hi, I am new to the Insteon community. I have been an X10 user for a while but recent problems with my setup made me buy an ISY-994i and a 2413S PLM. I already had a 2477D in my setup that used to respond to X10 commands.

 

So when I installed my new ISY, I tried detecting the 2477D that I had previously reset to factory. I finally was able to do it when both the PLM and the 2477D were on the same phase.

 

Once I got everything to work correctly, I tried changing the PLM to the other phase and when I do that, the ISY can't talk to the 2477D.

 

What I do not understand is that both the 2413S and the 2477D are dual band so to me they should be able to talk to each other regardless of which phase they are on, right?

 

So unless I did not understand what dual band meant, the 2477D should still be able to communicate with the PLM even when they are on different phases? They are like 4' apart so range is definitely not an issue.

 

I plan on adding other Insteon devices to gradually replace my X10 devices and eventually run an Insteon only setup, so I want to diagnose this as soon as possible so I do not get more problems in the future.

 

Is there a way to test the RF part of the communication? Or is there a way to force it RF only to troubleshoot?

 

Note that my electrical Panel has an X10 bridge which works well as my X10 devices are behaving correctly.

 

Please help me figure out what is wrong. Thanks in advance.

[Xathros]

Hi, I am new to the Insteon community. I have been an X10 user for a while but recent problems with my setup made me buy an ISY-994i and a 2413S PLM. I already had a 2477D in my setup that used to respond to X10 commands.

 

So when I installed my new ISY, I tried detecting the 2477D that I had previously reset to factory. I finally was able to do it when both the PLM and the 2477D were on the same phase.

 

Once I got everything to work correctly, I tried changing the PLM to the other phase and when I do that, the ISY can't talk to the 2477D.

 

What I do not understand is that both the 2413S and the 2477D are dual band so to me they should be able to talk to each other regardless of which phase they are on, right?

 

So unless I did not understand what dual band meant, the 2477D should still be able to communicate with the PLM even when they are on different phases? They are like 4' apart so range is definitely not an issue.

 

I plan on adding other Insteon devices to gradually replace my X10 devices and eventually run an Insteon only setup, so I want to diagnose this as soon as possible so I do not get more problems in the future.

 

Is there a way to test the RF part of the communication? Or is there a way to force it RF only to troubleshoot?

 

Note that my electrical Panel has an X10 bridge which works well as my X10 devices are behaving correctly.

 

Please help me figure out what is wrong. Thanks in advance.

 

Hi kaphely-

 

Dual band devices should be able to communicate even when they are on opposite phases however, the RF transmitters are fairly weak (especially with the devices that get mounted in the wall boxes) and depending on how they are installed and the distance between them they may not communicate well at all. It is highly recommended to have your phases bridged with a pair of access points preferably installed near the breaker panel and also a good idea to locate the PLM near the breaker panel as well to keep it as central to your electrical system as possible.

 

The X10 bridge may be passive in which case it may not be passing enough signal to the other phase or is passing noise as well as signal and causing issues. If Active, It most likely does not understand insteon and therefore offers no bridging for insteon. The access points mentioned above will activly repeat insteon messages to the opposite phase. They will NOT bridge X10.

 

Is the 2477D installed in a metal box by chance? If so, you can pretty much write off it's dual band capabilities. How far apart are the 2477D and the PLM? How many obstructions between the two?

 

Is your PLM plugged directly into an outlet with no surge protectors in between or on the same outlet/circuit? Many UPSs and Surge Suppressors have noise filters built in that totally kill insteon and X10 signals. The Insteon PLM's output a lower signal strength than some older X10 hardware and are more affected by noise filters as a result.

 

 

-Xathros

[kaphely]

Hi Xathros, thanks for your feedback.

 

My 2477D is indeed in a metal box, but I also tried taking it out and leave it hanging on the wall and it did not make a difference. The PLM is only 4' apart in a closet but it doesn't communicate even with the door opened. So this is still weird. I am starting to suspect that the RF circuit of either the PLM or the 2477D is not functioning as it should.

 

As for my X10 repeater, it is a passive one. I'll start by adding another RF device like a RemoteLinc 2 8 scene keypad and see if RF works. Then I'll know it is not the PLM.

 

I didn't know RF was weak and would not work well with metal boxes. My house only has metal boxes so I'll probably need a phase bridge for sure. Luckily, most of my devices will be on the same phase.

 

Thanks for the info!

[LeeG]

kaphely

 

Put the PLM into 4 tap Set button test mode used to determine what other Dual Band devices are in RF range and on same/opposite phase. By the response of the 2477D you can tell if it is receiving the PLM RF signal and whether on the same/opposite phase. Are there any RF devices in the area, baby monitors, cordless phones in the 900 MHz band, etc that could be interfering with the RF aspect of the Insteon Mesh network. RF devices in general do not work well inside a metal structure. That is why vehicles have antennas on the outside rather than buried in a trunk or under the hood.

[kaphely]

Hi LeeG,

 

I did the 4 tap test on both the PLM and on the 2477D. Here are the results, maybe somebody can explain.

 

When I initiate the 4 tap test on the PLM, I get,

 

If the PLM is connected in the same phase, the 2477D reacts and blinks.

If the PLM is NOT on the same phase, the 2477D doesn't do anything, led stays solid white.

 

When I initiate the 4 tap test on the 2477D, I get the PLM to blink red whether it is on the same phase or not.

 

What does this tell us?

[LeeG]

I think what is viewed as being on the opposite phase is actually on the same phase. The fact that the PLM blinks red from either 2477D install location tells me they are actually on the same phase. I would expect the PLM to blink green when the 2477D is on the opposite phase. That is why I prefer this test over looking at breaker positions in the power panel. The phases alternate vertically. This is necessary so that a double breaker will be picking up 240v, one leg from each phase.

[Brian H]

When I test my 2413S PLM with two Access Points. One on the same phase the other on the opposite phase.

Flashing Red is communicating on same phase.

Flashing Green is communicating on opposite phase.

[kaphely]

Hi guys, I am pretty sure the two outlets I used for my tests are on opposite phases as I wired them myself. I'll redo the test tonight to confirm the results as you made me had doubts about what I saw while testing. I actually wrote that post a coupe hours after testing so maybe I confused the led colors I saw while testing.

 

I'll post the results when I have them.

 

Thanks for the help by the way!

[kaphely]

Hi everyone.

 

I finally figured out what was going on. To clarify, I never swapped the SwitchLinc 2477D, I was only swapping the PLM from one outlet (let's call it A) to another (Let's call it .

 

Because of LeeG's comment, I started having doubts about the phases on which my outlets were connected. So I rechecked. After all, my PLM and Switchlinc always have been on the same phase because both outlets I was connecting the PLM in were on the same phase. I was wrong about that! This explains why I was always getting the red blink on the PLM when doing the phase test regardless in which outlet it was connected.

 

I found what was causing the 2477D not to respond when the PLM was on outlet B: I didn't realize the APC UPS on outlet B was destroying the Insteon signal.

 

I tested RF and everything works well as the phase detection (when I connect the PLM in an outlet that is actually really on a different phase, I get the green blink).

 

So in the end, nothing is wrong with my system, except for the fact that the PLM cannot go on the same outlet as a UPS! So PLM will remain in outlet A and UPS in outlet B!

 

All this also made me realize that my X10 bridge was bridging phase A to itself! I changed that but in the end it doesn't matter as my X10 devices seem to all belong to phase A!

 

So thank you everyone for the input on this! Maybe this post will help others with similar problems.

[LeeG]

It is common for a UPS to attenuate an Insteon signal as it looks like noise the UPS is trying to block. A FilterLinc between the UPS and the outlet normally allows use of the UPS to be on the same circuit as the PLM.

[Brian H]

In my setup.

I have a FilterLinc with my UPS in the filtered outlet on the bottom and the PLM in the unfiltered outlet on the front.

[kaphely]

Problems solved!! In case that can be useful to somebody else, my UPS was not responsible of the communication issues.

 

It was my Linksys E2000 Router's power supply that was causing the issues. Even my X10 signals were messed up. That also explains why my old CM15A was not behaving properly for X10. Now that I changed the power supply with another one, all problems are gone!

 

So be careful if you have these routers (E2000, E3000, etc.), seems like after a couple of years, their power supplies start dying and make noise on the power line.

[ELA]

Or .....

 

Perhaps it has been a signal sucker all along and you have just now discovered that?

 

http://forum.universal-devices.com/viewtopic.php?p=69957#p69957

Just added two new devices in my home and measured them proactively to confirm the Cable box that replaced the Satellite box needed to retain the filter already in place there.

 

New Tablet lugs along an XPPF filter any time it is charging.

 

No reason to "assume" noise without proof. Signal suckers degrade communications and the line between "perceived reliability" and a headache can be very slim. Once marginal any little change in the network takes it over the edge.

[kaphely]

Well ELA, since my X10 system just recently started acting up and that my Insteon switch had been working very well for over a week, I am assuming the PS is dying. But you are right, other factors like temperature, humidity and other loads in the house might have "amplified his signal sucking property" recently.

 

Anyway, I do not have time to do the measurements, and since I sold my oscilloscope a couple months ago because I wasn't using it anymore (maybe I should have kept it!), I don't have tools for that.

 

I also spent enough time troubleshooting as it is so now that it is working fine again, I'll leave it to that until the next problem. My girlfriend has already started sarcastically telling people she doesn't have a boyfriend anymore!

[ELA]

Understood Kaphely,

Glad you are up and running.

Just always like to clarify that many signal sucker issues are lurking and often noise is blamed.

 

My wife often tells me I should spend more time with my Insteon