Noob help - What should I do?

[TheEther]

This is more of a thread of communication issue prevention - I'm feeling quite new to this

 

I've had an Elk M1 for a while and just added an ISY-994i with Serial PLM, 1 (non dual-band) dimmer and an ApplianceLinc to get my feet wet. My house is 4500sq/ft with 3 floors with similar square footage on each floor. I have 2 electrical panels, one 200 amp and one 100 amp. I've been playing with the ISY (I'm in love with the program capabilities by the way) for about a week. I from time to time see delays (up to ~4 seconds) in the dimmer response and the appliancelinc response. I've been scouring the forum. I'm curious what hard and fast rules I should follow to to make the network as stable as possible. From a phase bridging perspective, the 100 amp panel mostly services the outlets and lights with the 200 amp panel servicing the heavy loads such as the two HVAC units, dryers, stove and so on. Would it be true if I have two panels that I'd actually have 4 phases to bridge? I'm not sure I 100% grasp the concept of the bridging I guess.

 

I'm not sure what final my goals are for my insteon buildout. I believe it to be mainly lighting with a few outlets here and there (until the addiction kicks in). My main driver for adding lighting control is to turn on key lights around the house if the alarm were to be tripped at night. I wanted the house to light up like a christmas tree, I believe this to be an effective deterrent if a thief were to breach my perimeter and it would make it easier to know what I'm aiming at if you will. A win-win for safety. That said, I foresee me adding about 10-15 switches/dimmers to accomplish that goal. Several of them are 3 and 4 way switches.

 

I'm just terribly foggy on how much dual-band stuff I should be incorporating and where strategically I should be placing it. Looking for guidance and thank you in advance.

 

TheEther -

[LeeG]

If both panels are supplied by the same meter there are only two phases. I have 3 power panels with active coupling using Access Points only on the primary panel.

 

I prefer a pair of Access Points to couple the phases. Located not too far from the primary panel. How many wired Dual Band devices are installed is a difficult subject. Devices inside boxes do not have the RF range of an Access Point. If the boxes are metal wired Dual Band devices are significantly limited in RF range.

 

Be sure the ISY PLM is plugged into an outlet, not a power strip with surge suppression. If other electronics such as UPS, router, PC, etc are powered from the same circuit they should be isolated with a FilterLinc.

[oberkc]

I don't know that these are hard-and-fast rules, but rather options to consider if willing to go to greater lengths:

 

a) dedicated a circuit for your PLM (and one access point, close to the panel, as LeeG suggests)

install (if not already there) an outlet very near the panel on the opposite leg as that of your dedicated PLM circuit. Add the second access point there.

 

Obvously, filter trouble-causing devices. Your four-second delay seems quite long, from my experience, making me think there is some comm issues. Make sure you are using scenes (as opposed to programs), where possible, to minimize delays.

[TheEther]

That's a good start, much appreciated. What is the best way to test for signal degradation for the purposes of locating the problem devices inside my house? It'd help to know how many filterlincs I'll need. I'd guess the first step should be to go ahead and phase bridge first then troubleshoot.

 

If you're phase bridging close to the panels (which I understand), does it essentially not matter how many dual band devices that are added later? Or, do the dual band devices "just help" with the signal where needed? I guess what I'm getting at is, does the insteon protocol put a priority on powerline communication over wireless communication? How does the insteon device decide what the paths of least resistance are for optimization of the protocol traffic? I'm sure there's a good article on this somewhere I just haven't happened across it yet.

 

Thanks

[LeeG]

Phase bridging is a must. Insuring the PLM plug point is clean of interference which includes elimination of noise and signal reduction conditions, is second. The PLM communicates with every installed device so insuring PLM signals start out as best they can be is essential.

 

Unfortunately there are no independent tools for analyzing Insteon, either RF or powerline. Have not seen a publication that covers today’s environment either. There is a very old insteondetails.pdf document on insteon.net that describes the Insteon Mesh network.

 

As far as analysis I use the Event Viewer at LEVEL 3, sending commands to devices with the Admin Console and watch the Hops Left=x counts (the old insteondetails.pdf covers hops). The outbound messages will have Max Hops=3 with Hops Left=2 the best, Hops Left=0 the worst and a Hops Left count that varies substantially from command to command is always an indicator of problems. There are cases where inbound messages from a device will have a Max Hops=1 Hops Left=0 which is fine so Hops Left=0 is not an absolute bad.

[apostolakisl]

That's a good start, much appreciated. What is the best way to test for signal degradation for the purposes of locating the problem devices inside my house?

Thanks

 

If it is proving difficult for you to figure out a noisy/sucking source, then you can turn blocks of circuit breakers off at a time and check to see if you communications improve. Of course if you have an intermittent problem, then this method (as will most any method) may still be challenging.

 

Using the "scene test" function in ISY is one of the best ways to check the quality of your communications. Of course for a scene test to work, all devices in the scene must have power and thus you can't shut off any breakers containing them. When a scene test passes, that of course is good. But it is better if when it passes it also uses only a single hop to get to each device (it might say max hops 3, 2 left).

 

You might first run scene tests and find any that are less than optimal. Then shut off all the breakers except those that are necessary for that scene/plm. See if it gets better. Then add back breakers until you see it deteriorate. Also, just because you find one breaker that causes trouble, that doesn't mean that there isn't a second one.

 

Having said all of this, you probably won't find more than a couple things that are troublesome. Most things don't cause issues.

[oberkc]

If you're phase bridging close to the panels (which I understand), does it essentially not matter how many dual band devices that are added later? Or, do the dual band devices "just help" with the signal where needed?

 

In fact, I have very few dual-band (fanlincs) devices besides a small number of access points. Yes, my perception is that the dual-band devices "just help" where needed. Furthermore, based on my impressions from hanging out here, it seems that if there are problems with powerline communication, RF communication will not necessarily solve the problem. As for me, I consider insteon to be primarily a powerline communication system, with RF thrown in as a bit of redundancy, and for communication with RF-only devices, such as motion sensors.

 

It'd help to know how many filterlincs I'll need.

 

In addition to the tricks suggested by LeeG, the ISY has a "scene test" function that can be useful. My suggestion is to start with two filters...put one on all your computer stuff, including UPS, routers, modems, computer, printer, etc. Keep the second one just in case.

 

Also, be aware that some lighting technology can be a source of insteon problems. My impression is that LV lighting (those fixtures with power supplies) is most often a problem, with aging floursescent and CFL coming in next highest likelihood.

[ELA]

Hello TheEther,

 

Here is a partial listing of Signal suckers and their relative "negative effects" on Insteon communications. I started this list in hopes of providing others with some idea of how wide spread the signal sucker issue is or can be. I recently tested two other laptop power supplies that were both at or above the "3 level".

 

http://forum.universal-devices.com/viewtopic.php?p=69957#p69957

 

I would recommend a filter for anything over a "3 standard Insteon load". It can be a bit complicated to make a more informed decision as to what you should filter and what you may not have to, however the " 3 level" or above is fairly severe.

 

If you have many electronic devices I would recommend buying filters in bulk if possible. I favor the (5 amp) XPPF filters for lighter loads as they are a better "Signal sucker isolator" than the filterlinc and also smaller. Do not overload these filters.

 

As others have said use the ISY in diagnostic mode level 3 to quantify how bad communications are at any one particular device. Then make a list of all electronic devices on the same circuit and begin to isolate each one by unplugging it and retesting. Keeping in mind that there may be several offenders that may need to be unplugged as possibly filtered.

 

Turning off entire circuits can lead to erroneous assumptions as to true offenders.

 

Best of luck

[Teken]

One of the things I have found to ensure a strong Insteon network is to deploy AP (Access Points) in all four corners of the home.

 

If the house is quite large I deploy AP's in each floor, zone, area where its needed. As others have stated any noise / signal suckers need to be identified and isolated.

 

I am more of a fan of unplugging all of the devices in the home to determine any noise issues. Its just more accurate and practical to identify noise / signal suckers.

 

I have completed 33 large Insteon installs over the last two years and the above has always proved dependable for me.

 

Since you're buying all new Insteon gear this diagnostic tool may help you as well.

 

http://www.smarthome.com/2993-222/INSTE ... pad/p.aspx

 

Teken . . .

[arw01]

This thread reminded me I owed someone on here some videos of another testing option for signal strength. If you got lucky enough to have an Elk ESM1 meter, they can be quite enlightening on signal suckers:

 

 

http://www.webbyhome.com/images/VID_20130614_201748.mp4

 

Second video shows after I plug the filter linc in the same outlet that filters the washing machine.

 

http://www.webbyhome.com/images/VID_20130614_201824.mp4

 

Third video shows same outlet with the washing machine plugged straight without the filter.

http://www.webbyhome.com/images/VID_20130614_201952.mp4

Then I moved to the exact same outlet as my PLM works on, note the difference in signal strength.

 

http://www.webbyhome.com/images/VID_20130614_202308.mp4

 

I then moved it to another outlet and used a control linc, you can see we get even more power with the controlinc vs the plm.

 

http://www.webbyhome.com/images/VID_20130614_202443.mp4

 

Moved to another outlet across the room, used the control linc again and you can see the drop in signal.

http://www.webbyhome.com/images/VID_20130614_202555.mp4

 

Alan

 

ps. I apologize for the upside down video, I did not realize the phone flipped the video FOR me when I record it, but not when it gets downloaded and played.