New Insteon Ballast Dimmer

[gatchel]

Hi peterd,

 

We have had the engineering samples and repeatedly requested for updated documentation which never arrived. Furthermore, the units we had didn't work as expected. Now, we are waiting for another shipment.

 

Why am I not surprised....

[rlebel]

I just received my first unit. There is now a manual online at the SH site, but it is not terribly useful. And of course I hope that the ISY soon supports it because programming and using it outside of the ISY would be a real PIA. Michel, help!

[peterd]

I'm particularly interested in using this unit in the relay mode.

 

When I looked at the manual, it seemed as though they were on the one hand saying that this should be used with a keypad (implying that each relay would be linked to a different button) while elsewhere implying that different relay combinations (low/high) could be treated as different brightness levels (i.e. linked to a single dimmable button/paddle).

I just received my first unit.[...]

@rlebel -

If you are able to do any testing with this in relay mode (and yes, I agree that linking/programming is sooo much easier via the ISY), I'd appreciate any reports...

 

@Michel -

The manual suggests they only expect the relays to be used in 2 modes (low/high) by having either one (we'll call it relay "A") or both ("A" & "B") on. (They are assuming that each of two ballasts controls half the lights in the fixture.)

 

In my application the fixture has 3 bulbs, so there could be low (one ballast - powering a single bulb), medium (the other ballast - powering the other 2 bulbs) and high (both ballasts on). This would require the ability to switch on relay "A" alone, relay "B" alone, or both.

 

I'd love to know if this is something you can enable with the ISY (even if this use requires that the ISY control it programmatically rather than having a switch/keypad directly linked to the unit). In my ideal vision of this, I'd be able to control this using a button or paddle operating in dimming mode such that 1% to 33% brightness = only relay "A" on, 34% to 66% brightness = only relay "B" on, 67% to 100% brightness = both relays on.

 

(And if this unit can't somehow do this I'll be writing programs to achieve this behavior using individual InLineLinc relays.)

 

Cheers,

Peter

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Peter,

 

We are still waiting for our ballast! As I mentioned, those we had didn't work at all.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[peterd]

Michel -

 

Thanks for the update. I hope that when you do receive them you'll give some thought to various control paradigms and ways in which the ISY can add value...

 

Cheers,

Peter

[rlebel]

Okay, I did some experiments with "interesting" results:

 

I linked the device in auto-discover to the ISY and no surprise it came up "Unsupported device 1.37". It linked as 8 devices with only the first one controllable, the other 7 were status only. I tried to force it to link as a dual-band dimmer but it always came back to selecting it as an unsupported device - I think that is an ISY bug, if I select the device type it should do its best to use my override.

 

In any case after the link the single control able device behaved pretty much as you would expect in dimmer mode - whenever the brightness is above 0% both relay outputs turn on and the control voltage varies with the brightness setting. The only surprise was that the output voltage was very non-linear: 10.5V at 100% but 2.2V at 50% and 5.5V at 80%. Dim and brighten commands work as expected.

 

In relay mode things were a bit strange. At zero brightness both relays were off and at full brightness both were one. The control voltage output seemed to always be zero. However, at mid brightness levels sometimes one relay would go on and sometimes both, without any set point correlation that I could find. A brightness levels that only turned on one relay it seemed random which relay turned on. One consistent behavior seemed to be that once both relays were on the only way to get either one to turn off was to go to zero brightness. Also, the bright and dim commands seem to have no effect. It might be that the ISY is sending unexpected commands due to the method of linking or it might be that this is yet another early-days SH device that is not ready for prime time.

 

In any case, the dimmer behavior that I have observed will work perfectly for my application - in my home I have strings of LED lights that are powered by DC supplies that take a 0-10V control input, currently the brightness is controlled by a pot rather than Insteon.

 

Michel, do you want to borrow my ballast dimmer? It could give you an excuse to have lunch in Santa Monica!

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi rlebel,

 

Just got them yesterday!

 

Thanks so very much for the offer.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[rlebel]

Michel, were you able to reproduce and/or understand any of the strange behavior I observed with the relay mode? Any idea when we will have support in the ISY?

[Michel Kohanim]

rlebel,

 

ETA for Ballast is mid/end September.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[peterd]

Michel -

 

Now that you've had some time with this unit, what can you tell us?

 

I expect that when used in dimming mode it acts like any other dimmer.

 

What about when used as relays?

 

In my application, I have an asymmetrical load which will operate like a 3-way incandescent bulb (3 bulbs: one relay would control one bulb, the other relay two).

 

For that application it would be great if it just behaved like a dimmer with very granular steps (i.e. 0% = off; 1% - 33% = low; 34% - 66% = medium; 67% - 100% = high) where low = relay A on, med = relay B on and high = both relays on.

 

From the documentation, it looks like they've only envisioned each relay controlling an equal wattage of lights. So only 2 states: Low (one relay on) & High (both on). Is that what you're seeing?

 

Thanks,

Peter

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Peter,

 

This device has thrown a wrench in our framework as it's really not INSTEON like ... very similar to thermostats where groups are used as functions. Still trying to figure out how to fit it in without a major redesign.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[rlebel]

Okay, well thanks for including support in the new release. I think I understand most of what is supported, but what do I do with the 4 groups in the options? How do I select them, and what are the max and min voltages?

 

I guess I missed the memo!i

[Brian H]

More like the memo was not clear.

 

As a member of the Developers Group. I can say the Developers notes for the Insteon Ballast Dimmer is not very clear and many times firmware gets updated and documentation does not.

[rlebel]

Well, since I am NOT a member of the developer's group, I really didn't get the memo!

 

Help?

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi rlebel,

 

Sorry, I really do not know any more than what's in the documentation.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[rlebel]

Which documentation is that? What I know about is the "Owner's Manual" on the SmartHome site which makes no mention at all about groups.

 

Thanks

[LeeG]

Scroll down the sales page to the specs. The chart explains the 4 Groups.

 

Hardwire port triggering

Group 1: triggers when switch between Pin 3 & 4 is closed

Group 2: triggers when switch between Pin 3 & 4 is opened

Group 3: triggers when switch between Pin 2 & 4 is closed

Group 4: triggers when switch between Pin 2 & 4 is opened

 

Also page 3 of the User Guide has the same information

[rlebel]

Thanks Lee!

[peterd]

Well, now that a few of you have used this unit, let me re-ask my earlier question.

 

When added in the ISY, how does the Ballast Dimmer appear? Is it a single leaf in the device tree which can be treated as a dimmer in either mode? Is it 2 devices (dimmer and relays - like the FanLinc)? Or is it 3 (or more???) representing each relay plus the dimmer?

 

I'm currently working with 2 InlineLinc relays and a KeypadLinc to setup control over fixtures which have 2 ballasts. Ballast "A" powers 1 bulb, while ballast "B" powers 2 bulbs. I'm setting up scenes on the keypad buttons which switch on either relay "A" for Low, "B" for Med. or both for High.

 

So... The heart of my question is whether the Ballast Dimmer (when used in relay mode) gives me any advantage. If it appears as 2 relays, there's no advantage over what I have on hand. If it appears as a tri-state device (relay 1/2/both) there may be some advantage. If it appears as a dimmer in either mode (but with very course steps in relay mode ) then I'm very interested.

 

Thanks in advance for sharing your experiences...

 

Peter

[rlebel]

The ballast dimmer can be set into relay or dimmer mode from an "options" selection after it is added to the ISY. Depending on the mode it appears as 5 (dimmer mode) or 7 (relay mode) items. In both cases 4 of the items are the open and closed status items for the contact closure/group inputs. In dimmer mode the main device controls the DC output voltage depending on the dimmer level. If the dimmer is set to zero both relays are turned off; if it is above zero both relays are turned on. As far as I can tell there is no way to control the individual relays in dimmer mode. In relay mode the main device becomes a control for both relays together: if it is on, both relays turn on and if it is off both relays are off. If the dim level is anything but zero both relays turn on, so the action you want does not exist with dim levels. The other two items in relay mode are individual controls for each of the relays.

 

Not related to your question, the options menu also provides minimum and maximum DC output voltage levels for each of the 4 groups. Even if you are not using groups it appears that you need to set those levels in Group 1 if you want to be able to provide controlled DC outputs in dimmer mode.

[peterd]

@rlebel -

 

Thanks! Very clear description. Now I have a good understanding of the device and how one would use it.

 

Sounds like the relays would be ever so slightly easier to use in my application (since each of the 3 items - relay 1 only, relay 1 only & both on - map directly to Low, Med & High), but not worth the purchase for me now.

 

While I may have a future use for the 0-10v output, it sounds like for now I'm back to my original 2-InlineLinc scenes. Now if only I could get the LEDs on my %*^# keypad to behave.

 

Thanks again,

Peter