Failure in communications between an ISY 99i and a 2474DWH

[GreyFox]

In 2 separate residences I have an ISY 99i managing numerous Insteon devices. The ISY is on version 3.3.10 of firmware. At each residence my ISY has lost the ability to communicate with a Switchlinc 2 wire dimmer (2474DWH) after having worked perfectly for several months. In each case, the failure happened after a break (which was promptly restored) in the wiring circuit of the dimmer. In one case the circuit breaker was inadvertently thrown. In the other case, the load being controlled was inadvertently turned off. In each case, the dimmer was a responder to another Insteon controller as well. In each case I became aware of the problem because the dimmer wasn't responding to its controller. When I opened the 99i Administrative Console, it gave me the error message that it couldn't communicate with the dimmer. So, in an effort to repair the problem I removed the dimmer from the applicable controller, any scenes in which the dimmer was a member, and then performed a factory reset on the dimmer per its Owner's Manual. I then attempted to add the dimmer back to the ISY using either "Start Linking" or "New Insteon Device." In both cases the add fails and I get an error message saying the ISY "Cannot determine Insteon Engine." The software goes through the motions of initializing and saying it is adding the device, but shortly fails with this error and the message "The following devices could not be added." In both instances, the dimmer works perfectly with the load to which it is connected in spite of this problem. As you probably know, with the 2 wire Insteon devices communications are only single band - RF. In each case I have wireless RemoteLinc controllers that were used as a controller for each dimmer. The 99i has no problem communicating with the RemoteLinc, and recognizes status changes with the RemoteLinc that are made from the very location of the dimmer. So, I am pretty sure the problem lies with the RF communications between the dimmer and the ISY. By the way, I have multiple Insteon wireless access points throughout each residence.

Can any of you give me some direction? Thanks.

[Xathros]

Greyfox-

 

I would try moving an access point to a location directly facing the dimmer and retry the add. Put it on an extension cord if necessary.

 

-Xathros

[LeeG]

No application including the ISY has any control of the RF aspects of the Insteon Mesh Network. There are no special commands for communicating with RF only devices, no PLM control commands for managing the RF flow of Insteon traffic.

 

Being in the wall the RF pattern may be more limited compared to a RemoteLinc (2). Suggest moving an Access Point closer to the 2-wire dimmer (not on the same wall) as a test to see if RF communication can be restored. Also is the load on the 2-wire dimmer a conventional incandescent bulb.

 

Edit: some of this a duplicate of what Xathros has already posted. The first paragraph is important to understand.

[oberkc]

In addition to other's responses, I offer....

 

In each case, the failure happened after a break (which was promptly restored) in the wiring circuit of the dimmer. In one case the circuit breaker was inadvertently thrown. In the other case, the load being controlled was inadvertently turned off.

 

It is my experience that temporary loss of power (once restored) or lack of a load or load being turned off has no effect on insteon communication.

 

When I opened the 99i Administrative Console, it gave me the error message that it couldn't communicate with the dimmer.

 

On occasion, I get this error as well. It is pretty infrequent for me, and I have had luck by simply ignoring the problem. Next time I log in, I don't get the problem again in most cases.

[Xathros]

It is my experience that temporary loss of power (once restored) or lack of a load or load being turned off has no effect on insteon communication.

 

In the case of the 2 wire dimmer (the device in question here), a load being turned off at a local switch, burnt out bulb(s) etc will disable the dimmer as it needs the trickle power through the load to power itself.

 

As a side note, I have already had to replace both of the 2 wire dimmers that I have installed due to failures. Both original dimmers died within 2 months of install. One would still operate the load but not communicate at all. The second one quit completely. Both were running single 60W incandescent loads in ceiling fixtures. The replacements have been fine... ...so far.

 

 

On occasion, I get this error as well. It is pretty infrequent for me, and I have had luck by simply ignoring the problem. Next time I log in, I don't get the problem again in most cases.

 

I see this as well on occasion. It tells me that the ISY thinks it needs to write something to the device and couldn't for whatever reason. I usually right click the device in question and select "Write Updates" when this happens. Normally this solves the problem. Once in a while, the write fails and I need to go see if an access point was unplugged or some new unfiltered noisemaker was plugged in on the circuit in question. My kids don't seem to care much about powerline quality.

 

 

-Xathros

[GreyFox]

I have attempted further testing which I will describe as follows. I attempted to link the dimmer to one of the buttons on the RemoteLinc without going through the ISY. This fails as well, which leads me to believe the problem is a failed RF component in these dimmers. I will try later today putting an access point on an extension cord right in front of the dimmer and see if this makes any difference. Thanks to all of you for your thoughts.

[GreyFox]

More testing: I unplugged one of my wireless access points and plugged an extension cord into its place. I then took the other end of the extension cord into the room where the dimmer is, plugged the access point into the end of the extension cord, and set the access point about 4 feet away from the dimmer, looking at the dimmer. I then went through the process of adding a new Insteon device in the 99i Administrative Console. Same result! So, I called SmartHome and explained my efforts. They are going to RMA the 2 dead devices and send me 2 replacements, although the process is a little klunky - it's not enough that you can prove proof of purchase, you also have to provide them with the version number of the device. What difference could that make? I had no choice in the version, and they sent me what they selected. You'd think they would keep a record of what they sent. Oh, well. Better than a sharp stick in the eye. Thanks again everybody.

[oberkc]

when you move access points around, were you sure you still had one on each leg of your electrical system? Did you perform the test in the manual?

 

If still able, make sure the extension cord is plugged into an outlet on the opposite leg of your electrical system compared to the other access point, regardless of whether that plug is close by. Just make sure the access point, itself, is physically close to the switch.

[jrini]

I have had exactly the same result with the Switchlinc 2 wire dimmer (2474DWH). I have not learned why but with the first dimmer, after each power interruption I found if I did a factory reset on the dimmer and restarted the ISY Admin Console (call it superstition) that would re-establish communications. I am not sure how often I did this (we have a lot of power outages due to thunderstorms) but after a while that process quit working. So, I called SmartHome and explained my efforts. They sent me a replacement Switchlinc 2 wire dimmer (2474DWH) which is now doing the same thing. Most recently my electric meter was replaced. I pulled the Air Gap switch before the power interruption. Same problem! If this dimmer eventually fails I am going to put back the old switch that came out of that box.

[Brian H]

Is the new electric meter a Smart Meter?

[jrini]

The installer was not sure if the new meter is a smart meter. He just new that every house in my neighborhood was getting a new meter. I have called my power company and asked but could not get through the telephone answerers to someone who knew what I was asking about.

[Brian H]

I was just curious.

I have not seen any Smart Meters effecting Insteon but there where X10 devices that where driven crazy. By them in one area of the country. Where they chose one of a range of communications protocols.

[jrini]

On Saturday August 17th I posted the following:

I have had exactly the same result with the Switchlinc 2 wire dimmer (2474DWH). I have not learned why but with the first dimmer, after each power interruption I found if I did a factory reset on the dimmer and restarted the ISY Admin Console (call it superstition) that would re-establish communications. I am not sure how often I did this (we have a lot of power outages due to thunderstorms) but after a while that process quit working. So, I called SmartHome and explained my efforts. They sent me a replacement Switchlinc 2 wire dimmer (2474DWH) which is now doing the same thing. Most recently my electric meter was replaced. I pulled the Air Gap switch before the power interruption. Same problem! If this dimmer eventually fails I am going to put back the old switch that came out of that box.

 

On Sunday August 18th I through the wrong breaker switch and caused the branch circuit that included the Switchlinc 2 wire dimmer (2474DWH) to be interrupted. Yep no more communication with the ISY.

 

Because I have had other priorities, I have been doing Factory Resets of the Switchlinc 2 wire dimmer (2474DWH) from time to time. No success until Tuesday September 17th. On Tuesday evening, I pulled the Air Gap Switch to start a factory reset. When I pushed the Air Gap Switch in, my screwdriver slipped and the Air Gap Switch popped out. I had been doing the factory resets unsuccessfully so often I just figured tomorrow I’ll try again. Later that day I was doing something else with the ISY Admin Console and noticed that the Switchlinc 2 wire dimmer (2474DWH) was now working with the ISY. Still is two days later.

[kaphely]

Just to add my personnal experience to this thread as I experimented the samekind of problems yesterday.

 

I realized that after a power outage, the RF dimmers loose the ability to communicate to the isy for some reason.

I was able to fix this by issuing a query command to the device from the isy right after restoring the power to the dimmer with the air gap switch.

 

So from what I see, the RF dimmer seems to need to receive something from the isy or another device after power loss to restore its communication. From that point, everything seems to be normal until the next power outage.

 

A little weird, and actually hard to understand why this has to be done but at least it seems to address the issue.

 

I also had trouble linking one of my RF dimmers when installed in the metal box in the wall. So I tried linking it while it was hanging outside the box and it worked. Then reinstalled it in the metal box and everything worked perfectly from that point.

 

If I start getting too many problems with the RF dimmers, I'll modify them to get the antenna outside the metal box and try to sandwich it between the dimmer and the wall plate or something.

 

So hopefully that little extra piece of information I just added will help other people find a solution to their RF dimmers problems in the future.