Motion Sensor - Sending continuous On

[Teken]

A few days ago I received a notification that the laundry light was on. I confirmed the status of the light via the ISY Admin Console and through my Dash Box. I remotely turned the lights off from work, and moments later (5-8 minutes) later the light came back on?

 

This went on for the whole day until I was off duty.

 

My first reaction was to remove and replace the 9 volt battery. Upon measuring the battery it was 5.XX volts. All of the motion sensors are set up to send an e-mail alert upon a low battery condition. This low battery condition was not detected and of course no e-mail alert?

 

What troubled me the most is that this low battery condition made the associated light come on over and over again.

 

I was not aware that a low battery signal from a motion sensor would send a ON command? Because of this problem I have installed a battery eliminator into the device just in case. I have also reconsidered where I use these motion sensors and how they are linked to my Insteon network.

 

There are a few members who use these sensors to turn on the central fan upon a person entering a wash room etc. There are also people who use them to heat towels, etc.

 

I would advise you all to consider how these motion sensors are placed and deployed in your Insteon network as the end result could be very costly and dangerous.

 

Teken . . .

[TJF1960]

There had been a few posts about that a couple of years ago. I too had it happen in two different locations. I removed all 6 and got rid of them.

[Teken]

I wanted to follow up with this thread and confirm the problem was due to a low battery condition. I was hedging my bets that the MS was going bad. The moral of the story is to know linking to a MS can cause the linked device to turn on during a low battery condition. You definitely don't want it linked to your garage door!

 

Teken . . .

[whywork]

Hi,

 

Some more user data.

 

I got an email notifying me my garage door was open (IOlinc status email via ISY). I was away, so I checked via my webcam and saw that the garage door was closed??? About six hours later I got an email that the garage door was closed. What was going on?

 

I have an Insteon Wireless Motion Sensor mounted outside. Two days ago it started sending "Low Battery" alerts about once an hour. Since I am away, I have not changed its battery. This motion sensor is not linked to any other device, and is not part of any scenes.

 

I believe that the motion sensor low battery condition causes the motion sensor to "impersonate" my IOlinc and send open/closed messages to my ISY.

 

Huh!

[Teken]

Hi,

 

Some more user data.

 

I got an email notifying me my garage door was open (IOlinc status email via ISY). I was away, so I checked via my webcam and saw that the garage door was closed??? About six hours later I got an email that the garage door was closed. What was going on?

 

I have an Insteon Wireless Motion Sensor mounted outside. Two days ago it started sending "Low Battery" alerts about once an hour. Since I am away, I have not changed its battery. This motion sensor is not linked to any other device, and is not part of any scenes.

 

I believe that the motion sensor low battery condition causes the motion sensor to "impersonate" my IOlinc and send open/closed messages to my ISY.

 

Huh!

 

It would be really great if you could provide the logs for your ISY for the membership to review. I ask because normally unlinked / UN-associated devices should not have impact on other parts of the system.

 

Any further insight to this along with logs would be helpful

 

Teken . . .

[whywork]

Hi,

 

New battery installed in motion sensor. NO erroneous alerts for three days and counting.

 

I did look at my log files (and error log) around the time of the "spurious" garage open alerts. All I saw was an email being generated because the iolinc noted the garage door was open. I did not bother to upload them because they showed nothing I could deem useful.

 

Can't say for sure what the cause was. However, new battery in motion sensor seems to have returned my system to "normal."

[larryllix]

What kind of time can do you expect out of a battery in these motion sensors?

 

Typically alkaline, cheap brand? It may be traffic dependent too.

 

Is there any logic to setting a time bomb to remind us to change the battery on a preventative schedule? This sounds like a PITA.

 

My X10 units all just cease working politely, except for one that I have marked.

 

Since I have no experience with any Insteon stuff yet, can a check be made on the battery status of the MS before reports are sent to circumvent this notice annoyance or event from happening??

[LeeG]

The Motion Sensor has a node specific to low battery. The node will switch to On when the Motion Sensor detects a low battery. Life of a battery is dependent on how much motion the device has sensed, what options are being used. I had good success with the one in the master bath. Did not try to monitor the time. It was clear when the light did not turn On reliably at which point I replaced the battery.

[oberkc]

Since I have no experience with any Insteon stuff yet, can a check be made on the battery status of the MS before reports are sent to circumvent this notice annoyance or event from happening??

 

I have not experienced this annoyance. When my batteries die in the motion sensor, my programs and devices simply quit responding. I have never experienced a continuous stream of commands or messages. Perhaps I have, but am using them in a different application and did not notice?

[larryllix]

Thanks for information

 

I have two of these units.

What length of time can I expect to get out of an alkaline battery in these motion detectors?

a) a few hours

a few weeks?

c) a few months?

d) about a year (plus or minus)?

e) a few years?

f) somebody else buys the batteries?

g) strike a deal with the manufacturer?

[oberkc]

My experience is about a year. It is certainly a LOT more than hours or a few months, but short of several years.

[ELA]

I have 6 of the Motion Sensors and started keeping a maintenance log a few years back.

I have had alkaline batteries last 1.5 - 2 years in a few of them.

 

I have experienced the continuous on/off send when the battery got low on one unit.

 

I have a trap for the low battery in my ISY programs to alert me on low battery. I would say that has worked about 60% of the time.

[Teken]

ELA,

 

What do you think is affecting your low battery notification to be 60%? Any insight would be appreciated on this topic.

 

Teken . . .

 

 

Encrypted By: Phoenix Security Solutions

[ELA]

Hello Teken,

I do not have any insight into why they do not always seem to send a low battery signal. I have always thought it is strange that they only sent the low battery message once as that certainly increases the odds of a single message being missed.

 

I also took to recording their voltage at the time they send a low battery, or I notice they are not working. Typically around the 6.8V mark.

 

I do have one unit that never seems to send any low battery and by the time I notice it is not working it reads less than 1volt! I fear this unit may get low at some point and then possibly "forget" to go back to sleep and drains the battery severely. Just a guess on that one though.

[larryllix]

I also took to recording their voltage at the time they send a low battery, or I notice they are not working. Typically around the 6.8V mark.

 

I do have one unit that never seems to send any low battery and by the time I notice it is not working it reads less than 1volt! I fear this unit may get low at some point and then possibly "forget" to go back to sleep and drains the battery severely. Just a guess on that one though.

6.8 volts on a 9V battery? That's most likely the problem!

 

Once batteries get much lower than their rated voltage they are good for maybe monitoring circuits and low power circuits but when they have to transmit an RF signal with any power alkaline and zinc carbon batteries have too much internal impedance build up to put out that kind of oomph!

 

This low battery indictor should most likely be going about 8.0-8.6 volts. If I check an open circuit battery with less than 8.9-9.0 volts I usually toss it as going to fail in a few days. I know forums mostly only hear from disgruntled users but I less impressed with the Insteon peripherals on a daily basis. Everywhere I read I hear about sensors being poor quality in such a tooted reliable system. Time will tell.

[Teken]

Well it looks like I have identified why the MS Low Battery Notification was not received. I *had* a dual band dimmer in the kitchen which has literally been used ten times. It has sat in the corner of the kitchen as a AP coupler to my Insteon network.

 

This dual band lamplinc dimmer is dead.

 

A few weeks ago when I was trying to set up the new Leak Sensors I received during the Black Friday sale. I noticed that both wash room Leak Sensors were not reporting back the heart beat signal per the program written by another ISY owner. At that point I decided to deploy another set of Access Points (AP).

 

Since installing the AP both Leak Sensors have reported in. It's my WAG (Wild *** Guess) that both laundry room and entrance MS were not in RF range.

 

Hence no received low battery warning alert.

 

Time will tell if this is the case and I shall report back in a few months of success / failure. Someone asked me why I have not used the AP's previously? Well, they are huge and ugly for starters, next they serve no secondary purpose unlike the lamplinc dimmer.

 

I will have to wait for another Insteon sale and hope very much the On / Off module is one of the devices I can purchase during the sale. More than likely I will pick up four of them and use them as AP's as I did in the past and move this one AP centrally in the home.

 

The last reason I also struggled to install the AP is that they consume twice the power as the dual band lamplinc at idle.

 

Teken . . .

[larryllix]

I will have to wait for another Insteon sale and hope very much the On / Off module is one of the devices I can purchase during the sale. More than likely I will pick up four of them and use them as AP's as I did in the past and move this one AP centrally in the home.

 

The last reason I also struggled to install the AP is that they consume twice the power as the dual band lamplinc at idle.

 

Teken . . .

Check out Costco.com for multiple (2-4 pack) device purchases. I got free delivery and have no membership for online purchases in Canada. costco.ca doesn't carry Insteon but the US one does. When I returned a device to them they told me no account/membership was required for online purchases.

[Teken]

To be clear you reside in Canada? And we're able to purchase the Insteon products from the USA Costco without issue?

 

If so that is fantastic!

 

Teken

 

 

Encrypted By: Phoenix Security Solutions

[larryllix]

To be clear you reside in Canada? And we're able to purchase the Insteon products from the USA Costco without issue?

If so that is fantastic!

Teken

 

Encrypted By: Phoenix Security Solutions

No! I thought YOU may have lived in the US and could use their online store. Sorry to get you excited.

 

Those make me reconsider taking a membership to the Canadian counterpart. I understand you can utilize the American stores but the Insteon stuff is only sold online. May be able to get them shipped to a store and pickup when there? I doubt they will ship to Canada.

[ELA]

I also took to recording their voltage at the time they send a low battery, or I notice they are not working. Typically around the 6.8V mark.

6.8 volts on a 9V battery? That's most likely the problem!

 

Once batteries get much lower than their rated voltage they are good for maybe monitoring circuits and low power circuits but when they have to transmit an RF signal with any power alkaline and zinc carbon batteries have too much internal impedance build up to put out that kind of oomph!

 

This low battery indictor should most likely be going about 8.0-8.6 volts. If I check an open circuit battery with less than 8.9-9.0 volts I usually toss it as going to fail in a few days. I know forums mostly only hear from disgruntled users but I less impressed with the Insteon peripherals on a daily basis. Everywhere I read I hear about sensors being poor quality in such a tooted reliable system. Time will tell.

 

There have been several discussions on MS battery levels if you care to search for them. The main one I was thinking of was at the Smarthome forum. Unfortunately I find the search engine at that site very frustrating and I was unable to find it to reference here.

 

From memory;

The MS is a low power device. In the past I had traced and measured the circuit threshold at ~6.8v. The device would still transmit at this level, which you would hope would be the case if the designed threshold was this value and it was expected to send a low battery signal.

 

One thing I did not do at that time was to measure the RF signal strength (@6.8v) as I did not have the ability to do that, at that time. It could be an interesting test to perform.

[larryllix]

There have been several discussions on MS battery levels if you care to search for them. The main one I was thinking of was at the Smarthome forum. Unfortunately I find the search engine at that site very frustrating and I was unable to find it to reference here.

 

From memory;

The MS is a low power device. In the past I had traced and measured the circuit threshold at ~6.8v. The device would still transmit at this level, which you would hope would be the case if the designed threshold was this value and it was expected to send a low battery signal.

 

One thing I did not do at that time was to measure the RF signal strength (@6.8v) as I did not have the ability to do that, at that time. It could be an interesting test to perform.

After seeing some reports of probems I hope to test my unit for function and levels. I am still waiting for back ordered shipment.

 

Now I will have to repair my variable voltage power supply. It's been a while for that one. I have no way to measure RF signal strength either but proof should be end function from an increased distance.