Strange Happenings

[ABLE1]

Hello all,

 

Was not sure this was the best section to post this. So if it should be somewhere else will a Mod please move as needed.

 

I have a Insteon system installed, there is a total of 11 togglelinc's installed, with a PLM and ISY994i.

All are working but there is a very strange thing that is happening.

 

There is one Togglelinc that is installed for a single ceiling lamp in a room with 3 CFL lamps. In the next room there is a 4 way circuit that has NO insteon switches. Just 3 switches, 2 three-way and 1 four-way that turns on a ceiling lamp with 3 CFL lamps.

 

Now here is the strange part. When the single togglelinc is turned on, meaning that the ceiling lamp is lit. And if you flip just one of the three-way switches On/Off the ceiling light will go off for about 1 second and then back on.

 

The light circuit in these rooms are on the same breaker. This On/Off action does not always cause this to happen but it can be repeatable with in about 5 to 15 flips. The response does not happen when the other three-way or the four-way are flipped On/0ff.

 

This does not affect any other togglelinc's just this one unit.

 

Has anyone ever experienced this type of action??

 

Anyone have any thoughts as to what could be going on??

 

Any troubleshooting hint would be helpful.

 

Thanks,

 

Les

[kck]

I actually saw similar behavior a while back at my house. During a remodel I had temporarily put an Insteon on/off toggle in a spare bathroom to control the lights. There was also in the same bathroom a conventional switch that controlled an exhaust fan. Quite often if you turned off the fan with the conventional switch the room light would go off and then turn right back on. Since this was a temporary setup (that has since been returned to both conventional switches) I didn't try to do any further diagnosis on it. But it does sound like the same sort of behavior.

[bsobel]

If you move that switch (the one that causes the issue) to the middle (hold it there) does the toggle linc controlled lights turn off?

[ABLE1]

If you move that switch (the one that causes the issue) to the middle (hold it there) does the toggle linc controlled lights turn off?

 

 

Placing the switch in the middle on a three-way switch and hold it will most likely turn off that light circuit. As for the what it would do to the togglelinc will have to be investigated. Can't try right now but will later.

 

What are your thoughts if the togglelinc turns off??

 

What are your thoughts if the togglelinc stays on??

 

Thanks,

 

Les

[ABLE1]

I actually saw similar behavior a while back at my house. During a remodel I had temporarily put an Insteon on/off toggle in a spare bathroom to control the lights. There was also in the same bathroom a conventional switch that controlled an exhaust fan. Quite often if you turned off the fan with the conventional switch the room light would go off and then turn right back on. Since this was a temporary setup (that has since been returned to both conventional switches) I didn't try to do any further diagnosis on it. But it does sound like the same sort of behavior.

 

 

Intersting!!! Identical symptons.

That would tell me that there has to be others that experienced this.

Hopefully someone found a cause and a solution.

 

Thanks,

 

Les

[Michel Kohanim]

Les,

 

Have you looked at the logs? If these strange happenings are NOT in your logs (i.e. ISY does not know anything about them), then I would suspect half links/phantom links between your devices.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[ABLE1]

With response to bsobel Here is what happens.

 

With the Insteon light turned ON and the 3-Way light ON returning to the 3-way to the middle and holding...... nothing happens.

 

With the Insteon light turned ON and the 3-Way light OFF returning to the 3-way to the middle and holding...... the Insteon light went OFF for one second and back on. Only happened once and could not repeat. Tried several times.

 

With the Insteon light turned OFF and the 3-Way light Flipped ON/OFF then trying to turn ON the Insteon light it does not work at all. The switch is non-functional. The "Air Gap" trick needs to be performed and the switch returns to normal. This is repeatable.

 

Les,

 

Have you looked at the logs? If these strange happenings are NOT in your logs (i.e. ISY does not know anything about them), then I would suspect half links/phantom links between your devices.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

Michel,

 

The logs show nothing at the time the event happens. Repeated several times.

 

So IF there are half links/phantom links as you suggest how it is corrected??

 

And please describe how half links/phantom links are created so that I and others can avoid them happening in the first place.

 

Also if you can please provide some details has to why or how this switch that is a mechanical contact can cause this to happen. Inquiring minds want to know!!

 

Thanks,

 

Les

[Xathros]

ABLE1-

 

My Guess is the CFL's on the 4 way circuit are putting a spike or nasty noise on the line that is causing the Insteon switch to act up. Try swapping the CFL's on the 4 way for incandescent and test. I bet the problem goes away.

 

Michel-

 

Per the OP, the 4 way circuit is Non-Insteon. Therefore no orphaned/half links are possible there.

 

-Xathros

[bsobel]

Les,

 

Have you looked at the logs? If these strange happenings are NOT in your logs (i.e. ISY does not know anything about them), then I would suspect half links/phantom links between your devices.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

Michel, the switch causing the issue is NOT an Insteon switch, just a dumb old switch...

[bsobel]

ABLE1-

 

My Guess is the CFL's on the 4 way circuit are putting a spike or nasty noise on the line that is causing the Insteon switch to act up. Try swapping the CFL's on the 4 way for incandescent and test. I bet the problem goes away.

 

Michel-

 

Per the OP, the 4 way circuit is Non-Insteon. Therefore no orphaned/half links are possible there.

 

-Xathros

 

My guess is also a VERY noise ballast on one of those CFL's especially with the lockup issue now mentioned.

Bill

[ABLE1]

ABLE1-

 

My Guess is the CFL's on the 4 way circuit are putting a spike or nasty noise on the line that is causing the Insteon switch to act up. Try swapping the CFL's on the 4 way for incandescent and test. I bet the problem goes away.

 

Michel-

 

Per the OP, the 4 way circuit is Non-Insteon. Therefore no orphaned/half links are possible there.

 

-Xathros

 

My guess is also a VERY noise ballast on one of those CFL's especially with the lockup issue now mentioned.

Bill

 

Ok guys, Here is the latest test. This test was done yesterday but I wanted to confirm after the thoughts went towards the CFL ballast point.

 

It was much easier to remove the CFL's from the fixture and test the "Non-Insteon" 3-way toggle switch. The Ineston ceiling lights did the same thing as before. Light was On and then went Off for about 1 second and back on.

 

Without the CFL's in the circuit they can't be sending bad stuff. I also verified with the Homeowner that there are NO recepticals on this switch circuit that would be turning on.

 

Please correct me if I am wrong but if a switch is turned on and there is no load on the circuit then NO electrons will be moving. i.e. dead circuit. Correct??

 

I am assuming that the half link/phantom link point it a non-issue at this time. Correct??

 

Thanks to all for the input. Looking for more thoughts or suggestions.

 

Thanks,

 

Les

[Xathros]

OK, based on that feedback, now I'm thinking that the power feed to the toggleinc is fed through the box with that 3 way switch and there is a bad connection in that box. The act of flipping that switch is wiggling the connections and momentarily dropping power to the togglinc.

 

-Xathros

[bsobel]

OK, based on that feedback, now I'm thinking that the power feed to the toggleinc is fed through the box with that 3 way switch and there is a bad connection in that box. The act of flipping that switch is wiggling the connections and momentarily dropping power to the togglinc.

 

-Xathros

 

Good thought (this is certainly a weird one!)

Bill

[ABLE1]

I understand where you are going. Although had not placed that into my list of suspects.

 

I had considered replacing the actual switch but I could not think of a good reason to do so. Now with the possibility being raised that there could be a small mis-connection involved makes replacing the switch much easier to except.

 

I will report back once completed as to the details of the testing.

 

BTW if there are any additional thoughts I am very receptive.

 

Thanks to all.

 

Les

[Xathros]

Les-

 

I'm not sure you need to replace any switches. Simply check the wiring at the non-insteon 3way switch location that is presenting the problem. You may have a bad connection in a wire nut at that location.

 

-Xathros

[Brian H]

Do you have any way to look at the Line power on the Insteon Switch when the mechanical switch is flipped?

To see if it blips for a short second.

[ABLE1]

Xathros,

 

I totally understand. If I am going to pull it out to check connections I might as well replace the switch.

 

Also, now that you have pointed out the possibility of a loose connection it does bring to mind what I saw when I was replacing the other switches. The original electrician use the speed wiring connections on the switches. I never liked them because they are (in my opinion) not as a tight a connection as under the screw terminal connection.

 

So based on your input and not knowing the actual wiring scheme it is possible that the loose connection could be a speed wire connection.

 

Will know for sure tomorrow.

 

Les

[ABLE1]

Do you have any way to look at the Line power on the Insteon Switch when the mechanical switch is flipped?

To see if it blips for a short second.

 

I do, but I am going to swap the switch and check connections to see if that fixes the issue.

 

Les

[Xathros]

Also, now that you have pointed out the possibility of a loose connection it does bring to mind what I saw when I was replacing the other switches. The original electrician use the speed wiring connections on the switches. I never liked them because they are (in my opinion) not as a tight a connection as under the screw terminal connection.

 

Same here. I always use the screw terminals and always loop the conductor around the screw in the direction that the screw tightens.

 

-Xathros

[ABLE1]

 

Same here. I always use the screw terminals and always loop the conductor around the screw in the direction that the screw tightens.

 

-Xathros

 

 

DITTO!!!!

[ABLE1]

Ok, here is what I found. Only had a little time.

 

Removed the offending switch and found that it only had one 12/3 wire connected. No other wire connection was there. They were speed wired as I thought. I removed the switch and installed another but used the screw terminals for connections. Once installed I did a test, the problem still exist.

 

So by my way of troubleshooting I have now found another not.

 

It is NOT in the ISY.

 

It is NOT any X10 Signals

 

It is NOT the CFL's

 

It is NOT the switch.

 

It is NOT the wiring at the switch.

 

My next check will be to see if voltage drops at the Insteon togglelinc. Did not have time to do that today.

 

Does someone has any other thoughts or suggestions.

 

Thanks,

 

Les

[Xathros]

Hi Les-

 

Les make sure there is no Insteon happening here at all. Open the event viewer and set it at level 3. Operate the offending switch until the problem occurs then post the relevant section of the event trace along with the address of the affected insteon switch.

 

-Xathros

[ABLE1]

Hi Les-

 

Les make sure there is no Insteon happening here at all. Open the event viewer and set it at level 3. Operate the offending switch until the problem occurs then post the relevant section of the event trace along with the address of the affected insteon switch.

 

-Xathros

 

 

Xathros,

 

I won't get there till next week. But, please help me a little bit. I don't recall seeing an "event viewer" or a "level 3" when I was looking at the Universal-Devices Administration Console. There is a Event Log and a Error Log that i was looking at.

 

Or are you thinking I should be looking at something else.

 

Please advise.

 

Les

[Xathros]

Hi Les-

 

Tools / Diagnostics / Event Viewer:

 

 

-Xathros

[ABLE1]

Ok, I got it!!

 

Thanks!!!!

 

 

Les