Multiple sensors. Sensor change. Scene remains on?

[icerabbit]

I have a pretty good idea of what I want to do and how it should fit together, but I'm stumbling a bit and not quite finding all the details I need or am not able to piece it together just right (not helped by some temporary mobility issues that severely impede computer use)

 

Scenario:

 

I want to deploy three motion 2842.222 motion sensors outside the house (will seek/make weather protection for them) to control some outside lamp posts and flood lights with inline lincs or new micro controllers.

This is to be night only illumination.

 

Goal is that tripping any sensor, dusk to dawn , activates the scene, and that the duration ends up being first detection scene on until last detection plus five minutes

 

Status

 

I have a temporary setup in the living room. Three sensors. Two lamplincs + lamps. One program. One scene.

 

Issues:

Lamps will turn on but not off

ISY reports the status of one or more sensors as blank (currently says m1 and m2 are blank, m3 is off

ISY reports one sensor as ON, despite no movement in past few minutes

It is daytime, despite having set sensors to night only (they're on now, noon EST)

Sensors reset? they do not always seem to have my settings (below), needing me to repeat it

 

Settings:

1 min, 50 led, 35 darkness

on on off

 

Program, in progress, was working last night, not this morning (lights are still on):

(can't seem to copy the lines from the app?????)

 

If M1 is on

Or M2 is on

And program motion detected is false

 

Then set scene motion response 100%

 

Else wait one minute

Set scene motion response off

 

I figure I can set a time constraint dusk to dawn in program or through each one dusk sensor, and maybe a countdown timeout, but that doesn't fix any underlying issues I am having right now. Within a limited space test environment.

 

I sincerely appreciate your help.

[LeeG]

Right click the Program name, select Copy to Clipboard. Paste Program to forum.

 

Please post all the Motion Sensor options. Remember to put each Motion Sensor into manual linking mode to read current options. Take that Motion Sensor out of linking mode before putting the next Motion Sensor into linking mode.

 

A blank Status means the Motion Sensor has not sent a message related to that node.

 

A value of 35 for Darkness is a very Dark level. The Motion Sensors would have to be covered with an opaque cover (at least 3.5 minutes) before the Motion Sensor will set Dusk On.

[oberkc]

You have a lot of things going on here, and I can think of several possibilities. You have a program AND scenes? You may need to describe both. LeeGs suggestion to post the program is a good one. Also, as LeeG suggests, one of the problems may be in motion sensor configuration.

 

Things that are going through my mind: Is your motion sensor sending ON only or does it send ON and OFF commands? Is your program based on STATUS or CONTROL conditions? Is your motion sensor a controller in your scenes that include the lamplincs? Do you have any unsaved changes to programs or motion sensor configuration? Is your PLM seeing the motion sensor commands?

 

Answers to questions like that will be important to isolate this problem.

[icerabbit]

Thanks for the replies.

 

The good news is, that when I got home tonight, that the lights in the test setup were off, and have come on and off with detection, and timed off.

 

Based on the reply of my darkness setting, maybe that is what is the issue. I thought I read in some place that 35 was the default. Maybe incorrect or outdated? Maybe I crossed two different things. I will have to try a different setting. Maybe 100. And see what happens.

 

All devices are new deliveries from insteon. First time setup. Took some time between sensors, but maybe not enough. There is only a mention of how to start the setup, not when it is done ... so I've waited till the fast flickr stopped, thinking it was programmed.

 

Looking at the admin console, all sensors and their parts are reporting this evening. They were not this AM. Maybe some went to sleep and left the light on?

 

Thanks for the copy to clipboard hint. Hadn't thought to right click in the left sidebar

 

Copy of the temporary program called 'Motion detected' - work in progress, variation on official example. Wanted to use And Scene Motion Response is off, but I couldn't get that in there.

 

If
       Control 'M1-Sensor' is switched On
    Or Control 'M2-Sensor' is switched On
   And Program 'Motion Detected' is False

Then
       Set Scene 'Motion Response' 100%

Else
       Wait  1 minute 
       Set Scene 'Motion Response' Off

 

Will copy sensor settings next.

[LeeG]

The If requires parens.

 

If

(

Control 'M1-Sensor' is switched On

Or Control 'M2-Sensor' is switched On

)

And Program 'Motion Detected' is False

 

Then

[icerabbit]

One sensor seems dead, wore the factory battery out already?

 

Current sensor settings

timeout 1 minute

led brightness 50

darkness 35

sensing V checked, as sensed

on only V checked, on/off commands

night mode [] unchecked, night only

 

I do notice that after a single detection blink, sensors will blink rapidly (20 times ?) in 10 sec. Haven't found yet what that is about.

[icerabbit]

The If requires parens.

 

If

(

Control 'M1-Sensor' is switched On

Or Control 'M2-Sensor' is switched On

)

And Program 'Motion Detected' is False

 

Then

 

Excellent, will add. Thanks for the near instant response!!!

 

PS: The 35 default is said in the wiki, will change units to 100

[LeeG]

"sensors will blink rapidly (20 times ?) in 10 sec"

 

This indicates at least one responder linked to the motion sensor did not ACK the sense message. Perhaps out of range, unplugged, etc.

[icerabbit]

Thanks. The thing about coverage and communication though is that the three sensors are 10-15-20 feet line of sight in the same open space, no walls, line of sight to the two dual band lamplincs. The two lamplincs are plugged in on the sidewall where the living and dining room meet. This to me represents best case coverage ... as when they go outside it will be long range.

 

This morning, I thought I was in good shape with no lights on, but the ISY says the lamplincs are on, turns out my wife unplugged the lights in the middle of the night as they remained on???

 

How do I diagnose / log what goes on?

Maybe with one sensor...

 

Current copy of the program:

 

If
      -(
      |     Control 'M1-Sensor' is switched On
      |  Or Control 'M2-Sensor' is switched On
      |  Or Control 'M3-Sensor' is switched On
      -)
   And Program 'Motion Detected' is False

Then
       Set Scene 'Motion Response' 100%

Else
       Wait  1 minute 
       Set Scene 'Motion Response' Off

[icerabbit]

(I found the log, now I just need to switch to a system with excel macro support or such ...)

[oberkc]

Is this posted program named "motion detected"? Or is "motion detected" a different program. If the former, I see nothing in this program that would ever cause it to execute the ELSE path (and turn false). If the letter, please post it as well.

 

I am still waiting for you response to earlier questions regarding scene members, including controllers and responders.

[apostolakisl]

Is this posted program named "motion detected"? Or is "motion detected" a different program. If the former, I see nothing in this program that would ever cause it to execute the ELSE path (and turn false). If the letter, please post it as well.

 

I am still waiting for you response to earlier questions regarding scene members, including controllers and responders.

 

I see this problem too. The only thing that will run the else is the program "motion detected" becoming true. And perhaps that is what you want, but I sort of doubt it.

 

You may need to include:

 

and control 'mx-sensor' is not switched off

 

A "control" command is only a trigger when it receives the exact command listed. In your case, that is an "on" command. You need to add "not switched off" so that an "off" command becomes a trigger and since there is a "not" that runs the else clause.

[icerabbit]

Sorry, I did not mean to ignore the detail question yesterday.

 

Test setup inside the house, two adjacent rooms, no wall, lamplincs in the middle of space, opposite each other

 

New devices:

Three motion sensors 2842-222

Two dual band lamplincs 2457D2

 

One new scene "motion response" for test purposes that has both lamplincs

 

One new program "motion detected" to check on the three sensors and turn the scene "motion response" on/off

 

I assume the motion sensors are the controllers, and the lamplincs the responders via the motion response scene, all glued together by the motion detected program.

 

(the controlled scene will be replaced with an upcoming outdoor flood scene once I can climb a ladder again, plus it is just easier to test inside at the table, rather than run around to get a view of the driveway and see if the lamp post is on)

 

Program content

 

If
       (
            Control 'M1-Sensor' is switched On
         Or Control 'M2-Sensor' is switched On
         Or Control 'M3-Sensor' is switched On
       )
   And Program 'Motion Detected' is False

Then
       Set Scene 'Motion Response' 100%

Else
       Wait  1 minute 
       Set Scene 'Motion Response' Off

 

With this program I was trying to mimic and expand the bathroom example posted on the site (either wiki or how to, ...) some place. But as I tried to say earlier, it didn't look like I could have

and scene motion response is off

or something of that kind, as suggested in the bathroom example to reduce traffic etc

 

The odd thing is, I've seen the light come on and off for a minute last night (and 5 min ago, after moving through the room, meaning I've got one sensor tripping in the daytime ... and it was followed by the 20 rapid flashes shortly later)

 

So maybe the key is to remove that line or replace it with something better ...

[oberkc]

The odd thing is, I've seen the light come on and off for a minute last night (and 5 min ago, after moving through the room, meaning I've got one sensor tripping in the daytime ... and it was followed by the 20 rapid flashes shortly later)

 

This makes me suspect that you have at least one motion sensor as controller in you scene. Please double check that this is not the case.

 

WRT your program, I believe the best approach is even simpler:

 

If

Control MS1 is turned on

Or control MS2 is turned on

Or control MS3 is turned on

Them

Turn on scene

Wait x minutes

Turn off scene

Else

So nothing

[apostolakisl]

Sorry, I did not mean to ignore the detail question yesterday.

 

 

One new program "motion detected" to check on the three sensors and turn the scene "motion response" on/off

 

 

To know how your program would function, we would need to see this program (motion detected).

 

Odds are, what oberkc has posted is probably going to do the trick, but you may have special considerations. His program will keep resetting the timer every time one of the motion detectors sends an "on" command, which is usually how people like motion lighting to work.

[icerabbit]

Thanks!

 

Created the new program following oberkc's outline - thanks ! - and will check how that runs. And investigate further on any linking (nothing was linked without the isy, only added to the table, then monitored with the sensor program).

 

 

I don't have any special considerations really. I was just trying to follow the how to example

 

viewtopic.php?t=3032

 

which has a different approach, and in the additional examples had reasons that made sense to me.

 

I think the setup I wish is: trip any sensor then light come on for n minutes (probably will be 5min or so, I'm keeping it shorter to test) and if another motion sensor is tripped, reset 5 minute countdown, so it ends up being last motion seen + 5 min. If that is how oberkc's outline works then that is perfect.

 

New program "motion" per oberkc

 

If
       Control 'M1-Sensor' is switched On
    Or Control 'M2-Sensor' is switched On
    Or Control 'M3-Sensor' is switched On

Then
       Set Scene 'Motion Response' On
       Wait  2 minutes 
       Set Scene 'Motion Response' Off

Else
  - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

[icerabbit]

Updated to lockout daytime action

 

If
       From    Sunset 
       To      Sunrise (next day)
   And (
            Control 'M1-Sensor' is switched On
         Or Control 'M2-Sensor' is switched On
         Or Control 'M3-Sensor' is switched On
       )

Then
       Set Scene 'Motion Response' On
       Wait  2 minutes 
       Set Scene 'Motion Response' Off

Else
  - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

[oberkc]

which has a different approach, and in the additional examples had reasons that made sense to me.

 

It appears that one of the considerations on the wiki is to minimize communication traffic over the powerlines, so they try to avoid sending an ON command to devices and scenes that are already on. I have never seen the need to be overly concerned about this in my house. My programs and needs are relatively simple.

[icerabbit]

Thank you oberkc, and other members.

 

I am not overly concerned about traffic either, but it made sense to try to follow the example.

 

I am happy to report the new program works great so far, no lights on during the day and they turn off.

 

Haven't tested yet if the timer resets. I will have a look tonight.

 

The next thing I probably need to weed out is sensor flashing.

 

Regardless of day/night, the sensors flash once dim with first detection, then go to rapid bright flash 20x/10sec (estimate) with second detection ... like when you walk past twice in 20sec. Hardly inconspicuous and annoying.

 

But the funny thing is they don't always do. You walk past, blip. Or blip blip. A few times it is fine. Then you think all is well. Walk around and they flash like mad. Next time. All is calm.

 

???

 

Without any changes in location, environment, ....

[Xathros]

I could be that where you are standing is interfering with RF communication with a linked device preventing the ACK reaching the sensor. It has been shown in the past that humans moving around in an Insteon RF environment does have a noticeable effect at times. What this means to me is that the comms between the sensor and the linked device are marginal and the addition of an access point or other dual band device in the vicinity of the sensor or linked device could help.

 

-Xathros

[icerabbit]

Very good point.

I hadn't thought of me or a family member interfering with transmission as we're moving about. But it certainly makes sense when moving toward the sensor and slowing down or pausing, where one is in the line of sight from the sensor to one dual band access point. I will try to keep that in mind when the kit moves outside, keep it inline of sight and add a dual band appliancelinc between where one set is to be deployed.

Thank you.

[icerabbit]

After some more testing, it is not human interference thing. I'll have to contact SmartHome or post this up on the SmartHome forum. I have the dual band access point on the wall. Motion sensor three feet away from it. People pass another three feet away from the sensor. First person. 1 flash. Second person. 20 flashes. Cat trips the light. Cat walks past again as I'm typing this. 20 flashes. This also causes the time program not to reset ... walk past, 20 flashes, lights go out.

 

I literally have the sensors 3-4 feet line of sight without an object between???

No person walking through the data stream.

First detection is fine. Second detection goes wild.

[LeeG]

Put the motion sensor into linking mode with its Set button.

 

Right click Sensor node, select Diagnostics | Show Device Links Table and post the results.

 

 

How long of time elapses between the first and second trigger?

[icerabbit]

Elapsed time can be any time. 5s 10s 45s. Typically flashes fast upon second detection. Sometimes rightaway, I think.

 

Did the diagnostic on one. Several of the linked devices in that shown address table I don't recognize? Even though the units are brand new out of the box and were setup through the isy menu add sensor with top option to erase everything.

 

The table looked different than the xml it saves, but I guess advaced members are used to seeing it.

 

Device Links Table : M2-Sensor / 27 B5 10 1
0
4088
226
1
1983934
16719617


1
4080
226
2
1983934
16719618


2
4072
226
3
1983934
16719619


3
4064
162
1
2602236
204545


4
4056
226
1
2603029
204545


5
4048
162
1
2603029
204546


6
4040
0
0
0
0

[LeeG]

The link database is a few problems. The entries that start with A2 01 are responder entries that are not logical because the motion sensor is normally asleep. This motion sensor is also a Controller (the red entry that starts with E2 01) which is odd since the On/Off is being performed with a Program. Take a look at the Insteon addresses and see what other devices are involved. It may be that during the early stages of setup some of the motion sensors were cross-linked when they were not being taken out of link mode.

 

M2-Sensor / 27 B5 10 1

0FF8 : E2 01 1E.45.BE FF 1F 01

0FF0 : E2 02 1E.45.BE FF 1F 02

0FE8 : E2 03 1E.45.BE FF 1F 03

0FE0 : A2 01 27.B4.FC 03 1F 01

0FD8 : E2 01 27.B8.15 03 1F 01

0FD0 : A2 01 27.B8.15 03 1F 02

0FC8 : 00 00 00.00.00 00 00 00

Device Record Count : 7