best way to program all on, all off buttons

[jgorm]

I'd like to make some scene / programs for the following off of a 8 button controller;

All lights on button

All lights off button

All inside on

All inside off

All outside on

All outside off

 

If I use scenes and controllers it uses the same button and turns everything on before I can turn everything off.

 

also, How do i remove a button as a scene controller?

[oberkc]

If I use scenes and controllers it uses the same button and turns everything on before I can turn everything off

.

Not if you configure a button as NON TOGGLE OFF or NON TOGGLE ON

 

also, How do i remove a button as a scene controller?

Right click on the desired button within the scene. Is there an option to delete from the scene?

[PurdueGuy]

If you don't want to use non-toggle buttons, you should be able to set the level of any button as off.

Remember that when you add a KPL button as a controller, you might have different levels for the main scene (controlled by ISY) and the scene that the KPL button has.

 

If you set the main scene to have devices the way you want, then you can click on the controller for that scene (red italicized text), and click "Copy Scene Attributes From "

[jgorm]

Thanks guys! I didn't know about the toggle options. I got it all working smoothly.

[jgorm]

One more question. Some of my all off non-toggle buttons stay lit up sometimes. When I push the button, it blinks a couple times, but stays on. Sometimes they turn off, but I can't figure out how. It seems that the outside lights off button always stays lit up, even when all the lights are off, but the other 2 (inside and all lights) will change.

[oberkc]

if they are in non-toggle OFF mode, they should blink a couple of times, then turn off. If in non-toggle ON mode, they should blink a couple of times, then stay on. Is this how they are behaving?

 

It seems that the outside lights off button always stays lit up, even when all the lights are off, but the other 2 (inside and all lights) will change.

 

Yes, this is not surprising. If you want some buttons to turn off in response to presses of other buttons, you would have to create additional scenes, or add buttons to existing scenes.

 

Perhaps it best to summarize everything that you want to happen when you press the various keypad buttons.

[jgorm]

The ones that stay on sometimes are all non- toggle off buttons. All I want is for all the lights in that scene to turn off when I push that button. It seems that I have all 3 off buttons setup the same, but they do not all act the same. It's not a huge deal, the buttons do what they are supposed to, except they light different.

[PurdueGuy]

The ones that stay on sometimes are all non- toggle off buttons. All I want is for all the lights in that scene to turn off when I push that button. It seems that I have all 3 off buttons setup the same, but they do not all act the same. It's not a huge deal, the buttons do what they are supposed to, except they light different.

I have seen the same thing. I have buttons set to non-toggle-off, and I verify via the Event Viewer that they send DOF/DFOF. However, the lights stay on. Sometimes a factory reset followed by a restore device gets it correct, but not always. The most recent problems seem to be with the new Dual Band dimmer KPLs. I have 2, and they never seem to want to cooperate. I got to the point where I put the non-toggle-off buttons into a scene, and when any of them is activated, I want 5 seconds, and send a scene off to turn them off (a band-aid, I know).

[apostolakisl]

The backlight on the KPL may not be turning off for a couple reasons.

 

1) The lights in the scene were turned off via a mechanism that was not by turning off the scene that they share with the KPL

2) You have a comm issue.

 

If you have a KPL that you want to be a non-toggle off for a single scene, and you want the KPL backlight to always show the status of the scene, then you must put them all into a single scene where the KPL is a controller of the scene. Also, all other ways of shutting off (or on) the lights in question must also be controllers of the scene.

 

In the simplest situation, you might have a single switch that controls the load, and several other switches plus the kpl. All of the switches/kpl will need to be in the scene and all will need to be controllers of the scene.

 

As an example of how it could get messed up, lets say you had another scene that also shut off the lights in question, if you used that scene, then your kpl would not shut off unless it were made a member of that scene as well (at least as a responder).

 

Another example would be if the load switch was only a responder to the scene and not a controller. In that situation, turning that switch off would turn the lights off, but none of the other switches (or KPL) would show that change.

[PurdueGuy]

These KPLs are not responders to other programs or scenes. They are the only controllers. Even if I don't have another device in the scene, they still don't turn off. ISY thinks they are off, but they aren't. If I run a query, ISY will then show them as on.

[apostolakisl]

These KPLs are not responders to other programs or scenes. They are the only controllers. Even if I don't have another device in the scene, they still don't turn off. ISY thinks they are off, but they aren't. If I run a query, ISY will then show them as on.

 

What if you push the KPL, then the backlight turns off, right?

 

I think this would happen if you turn the scene containing the KPL off where ISY receives the scene off command, but the KPL does not receive the scene off command. Some of the guys who are more into the Insteon command sequence could confirm, but I believe that is correct.

 

There are a number of situations where ISY has to make assumptions as to the status of a device based on commands received, not actual status reports from the devices. For example, I know for certain that a dim up or dim down of a scene does not report the actual status of the devices, but rather ISY times the length of the the dim up/down and then reports that as the status of the device. If you run a query after a dim up/down, you usually see ISY make a small adjustment to the percentage.

[PurdueGuy]

I know that ISY "knows" the state of things, and adjusts its own state based on traffic is sees on the network, and how things should be after afferent events, and that the new state isn't based necessarily on direct traffic.

 

The button is set to non-toggle-off, and when I push the KPL button, the individual button light (not the overall KPL backlight) turns and stays on, and the event viewer shows a DOF being sent out.

 

On other KPLs that work, the button is set to non-toggle-off, and when I push the KPL button, the individual button light (not the overall KPL backlight) turn, flashed a couple times, and turns one...and the event viewer shows a DOF being sent out.

 

I simply have a couple KPLs (reported as "2334-2 KeypadLinc Dimmer 8 buttons v.43) that refuse to play nicely with the non-toggle-off settings. Take button 7, it is set up as a Controller of nothing, and a responder to a single scene (which has the levels set to off). That program is as follows:

If
       Control 'Devices / Guest / KPL Wall / KPL Wall.7.NS Off' is switched Off
    Or Control 'Devices / Guest / KPL Wall / KPL Wall.7.NS Off' is switched Fast Off

Then
       Wait  5 seconds
       Set Scene 'Scenes / Guest / Guest Off LEDs' Off

Else
  - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action') 

If I have the program enabled, and click the KPL button 7, the individual button lights up, the program run, waits 5 seconds, sends the scene command, and the button goes out (the 5 second wait is just to allow any other traffic to clear, since I wanted to troubleshoot anything else).

If I have the program disabled, and click the KPL button 7, the individual button lights up, and stays on.

[Xathros]

This sure sounds like a bug in the v.43 KPL firmware to me. I have seen several reports of odd NonToggle behavior on the new KPL's. There may have even been an adjustment made for them in the latest 4.1.2 ISY firmware.

 

-Xathros

[apostolakisl]

I know that ISY "knows" the state of things, and adjusts its own state based on traffic is sees on the network, and how things should be after afferent events, and that the new state isn't based necessarily on direct traffic.

 

The button is set to non-toggle-off, and when I push the KPL button, the individual button light (not the overall KPL backlight) turns and stays on, and the event viewer shows a DOF being sent out.

 

On other KPLs that work, the button is set to non-toggle-off, and when I push the KPL button, the individual button light (not the overall KPL backlight) turn, flashed a couple times, and turns one...and the event viewer shows a DOF being sent out.

 

I simply have a couple KPLs (reported as "2334-2 KeypadLinc Dimmer 8 buttons v.43) that refuse to play nicely with the non-toggle-off settings. Take button 7, it is set up as a Controller of nothing, and a responder to a single scene (which has the levels set to off). That program is as follows:

If
       Control 'Devices / Guest / KPL Wall / KPL Wall.7.NS Off' is switched Off
    Or Control 'Devices / Guest / KPL Wall / KPL Wall.7.NS Off' is switched Fast Off

Then
       Wait  5 seconds
       Set Scene 'Scenes / Guest / Guest Off LEDs' Off

Else
  - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action') 

If I have the program enabled, and click the KPL button 7, the individual button lights up, the program run, waits 5 seconds, sends the scene command, and the button goes out (the 5 second wait is just to allow any other traffic to clear, since I wanted to troubleshoot anything else).

If I have the program disabled, and click the KPL button 7, the individual button lights up, and stays on.

 

If pushing directly on the KPL button when it is on does not turn it off, then something is wrong with the KPL. And by backlight, I mean the individual button on/off backlight, not the overall so you can see it at night backlight.

 

That is why I made the first comment about "when you push the KPL button it turns off, right?" with a question mark after it.

 

Have you tried factory resetting it?

 

What if you put it into regular on/off mode rather than toggle off mode.

 

The blink you see I believe has to do with a communication issue. I believe it blinks if it didn't get ack from the target.

 

Xathros has some knowledge of a firmware glitch regarding the non-toggle mode, so I would say that there is a chance it may not be fixable.

[PurdueGuy]

I will try to call the Insteon support line this Friday to ask about it. Unfortunately, both of my new KPLs are in my roommates room, so it's a pain to get time to test.

 

I posted about this on the SmartHome forum, and there are a few other threads. Seems to be an issue.

http://www.smarthome.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14530

https://www.smarthome.com/forum/topic.a ... C_ID=13594

 

If pushing directly on the KPL button when it is on does not turn it off, then something is wrong with the KPL. And by backlight, I mean the individual button on/off backlight, not the overall so you can see it at night backlight.

 

That is why I made the first comment about "when you push the KPL button it turns off, right?" with a question mark after it.

I answered that in my response earlier with "when I push the KPL button, the individual button light (not the overall KPL backlight) turns and stays on, and the event viewer shows a DOF being sent out."

 

Have you tried factory resetting it?

Yes, doesn't seem to help with some of these new KPLs. With older KPLs, that would fix it.

 

What if you put it into regular on/off mode rather than toggle off mode.

The buttons behaves normally.

 

The blink you see I believe has to do with a communication issue. I believe it blinks if it didn't get ack from the target.

My other devices that work correctly with non-toggle-off will blink twice I think, then turn off.

[apostolakisl]

 

The blink you see I believe has to do with a communication issue. I believe it blinks if it didn't get ack from the target.

My other devices that work correctly with non-toggle-off will blink twice I think, then turn off.

 

Yes, I have a KPL with toggle off mode as well. It used to do that blink every time. But I improved communication and now the KPL shuts off when I push it and that is it. Lee could tell you for sure, but I am pretty sure the blink has to do with failed or perceived failed comm.

[LeeG]

A KeypadLinc button in non-toggle mold should blink twice when pressed. In non-toggle On mode the button LED stays on after the two blinks, in non-toggle Off mode the button LED should turn Off after the two blinks.

 

Blinking more than 2 times in any mode indicates a responder did not ACK the command sent by the KeypadLinc.

[jgorm]

These KPLs are not responders to other programs or scenes. They are the only controllers. Even if I don't have another device in the scene, they still don't turn off. ISY thinks they are off, but they aren't. If I run a query, ISY will then show them as on.

Same thing with me. When I push the off button (the only controller for this scene) it will blink, then stay on. I have 3 non-toggle off scene controllers, and only 1 of them stays on all the time, one works as it should, and one turns off sometimes. When I check my phone it sometimes says they are on when they are really off. I did the restore device a few times when the renaming of the buttons didn't seem to stick. I 'moved' a scene controller for my hot water pump to a different button by deleting it from that scene, renaming both buttons, then adding it back to the scene. In the morning I came out and the hot water pump wasn't on, and the outside lights were triggered by my hot water program. I verified proper operation by triggering the program and scene the night before and everything was working as normal. Random things seem to get messed up when I add a lot of switches and make new programs, even if I don't do anything for the other programs and scenes. I had a keypad dimmer freak out and stop working the same day too. Not sure if its a coincidence.

 

 

A KeypadLinc button in non-toggle mold should blink twice when pressed. In non-toggle On mode the button LED stays on after the two blinks, in non-toggle Off mode the button LED should turn Off after the two blinks.

 

Blinking more than 2 times in any mode indicates a responder did not ACK the command sent by the KeypadLinc.

The on ones work like that, but the off ones only do sometimes.

[LeeG]

If the non-toggle Off mode button blinks more than 2 times a responder is not ACKing the request from the KeypadLinc. Off can be an issue because the loads are On which can present noise that would not be there going from Off to On.

[jgorm]

It was not blinking more that 2x for me. I went 'all in' and removed all the buttons from all scenes, deleted it from the isy, and did a factory reset on the switch itself. I'll reprogram it and go from there. It got confusing when I was doing it because i renamed it a while back and saved all the buttons as NA because I wasn't using them. When I went to use them, it took a few tries to figure out what was what and I think I might have confused it (or me!). Fingers crossed that a fresh reload will have everything working correctly.

[Xathros]

If the non-toggle Off mode button blinks more than 2 times a responder is not ACKing the request from the KeypadLinc. Off can be an issue because the loads are On which can present noise that would not be there going from Off to On.

 

 

Lee-

 

My v.43 KPLD has a multi color set button. A green blink after a button press means ack received. Multiple red flashes means no ack from what I've been able to figure. I don't know of the actual button LED also shows extra blinks when no ack is received. I will have to do some additional testing to find out for sure.

 

-Xathros

[LeeG]

Xathros

 

Thanks for that information. I do not have the latest KPL firmware. I'm wondering if the OP does. Would seem obvious if the Set button was blinking.

[jgorm]

the set button was blinking green with button presses.

[EricK]

I have the All Off button as H on the 8 button v.43 KPL, set to non-toggle off. When I press the button it does send the off command but the button stays lit. After a few seconds there was a green flash of the set button, but I think that is my correction program to turn off the button. I have had all off buttons for years and this behavior is new. There is a smarthome thread that says the non-toggle off command has been removed http://www.smarthome.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14530. There was another thread in this forum and Michel suggested we wait for the firmware update which I have not tried yet. viewtopic.php?f=26&t=13123

E

[jgorm]

So after a few days it's still weird. My switch is setup like this.

light---------------hot water pump

all out on----------all out off

all in on-----------all in off

all on-------------all off

 

The all out off and the all off lights never turn off, even when I push the on button. When I push all out on, the outside lights turn on, but the keypad does not light up other than the 2 blinks. The all out off stays lit.

 

When I push all in on, the lights turn on, the keypad for all in on stays unlit, but the all on button lights up. When I push all in off, the all in off stays lit, and the all on button stays lit even though all the lights are off. When I push the all on, the button blinks as normal, then goes off. If I push all off while the all on button is lit, it will turn off, even if I have already turned all the lights off with the all out and all in off buttons.