Help with water shut off valve needed

[EricK]

I finally got a water shut off valve, ELK WSV2. I have it connected to an io linc as well as to a 12v relay to activate the iolinc sensor when the valve closes. I am copying this set up:

I set up the iolinc on to close the valve, off opens it. I created a scene with the io linc as a responder and a leak sensor wet as a controller. I got the sensor wet, triggering the scene, turning the relay on, and the valve closed immediately.

I was going to do this with the leak sensor program, just adding a line to close the valve on wet detected and probably will as a back-up since some of the leak sensors can be a little temperamental.

Should I set this up just with a program on a delay in case there is a false alarm. On wet detected I would get a text notification. If I delay shut off for 30-60 seconds, then I could interrupt the program with some condition. I think I will control the io linc with a KPL button by the door to the garage or with a dedicated switch linc by the door. This way when we go out I can just turn off the water. Maybe a second KPL button to show the status.

Any thoughts on the best way to set this up are appreciated.

Eric

[Teken]

EricK,

 

I personally would not use or count on the Insteon leak sensor to detect the presence of water. Does this valve interrupt the main water line to the home? I personally use local control and sensors to detect the presence of water.

 

At that time the water supply is turned off along with the power to what ever device its attached to. Your method assumes AC power is present and the Insteon network is able to communicate to this water valve system.

 

I considered the path you took long ago but opted to follow another solution.

 

Teken . . .

[EricK]

Teken,

I plan on having this valve placed on the main. Hopefully we will be good about just turning the water off when we leave the house. I may add water off to the away and home buttons in addition to separate controls. I have room near our door for a dedicated switchlinc. I seen your videos on YouTube. We have a backup generator so hopefully insteon signals will be transmitted if we lose power. As I have written before, it is very unlikely that we will lose power since I just paid big bucks for the generator. Obviously there is no perfect system. We have too many fixtures to do local control which is why I went with the main shut off.

Hearing stories from people I know about water leaks makes investment in some type of system worth while. I do like the flow meter system as well.

Thank you for your feedback, I was hoping you would post.

Eric

[gatchel]

About your delay question...If a pipe breaks a completely open a main pipe can flow anywhere between 10 to 30 gallons per minute maybe more depending on pressure.

 

Do you want to wait or shut off the water?

 

Someone inconvenienced in the shower is much better than getting out the shop vac, IMHO.

 

As far as shutting off the water when leaving, If you have proper sensor placement and you have tested your setup you should be fine.

 

Think if you have visitors or you're on vacation and someone has to watch the place, are they going to know all of your specialized HA information?

 

I use my Elk M1 to control the water shutoff that I have. I have a button on the main alarm keypad at the front door that flashes if the valve is activated and is closed. Once the water alarm is investigated and cleared, someone can simply hit the flashing button to open the valve again.

 

The sensors that are tied in to the Elk are these:

 

http://www.winland.com/products/WB200/wb200.html

 

They are nice because you can have one main control box with up to 6 sensors per unit. I have 2 control boxes total with 2 or 3 sensors per unit in "key" water areas.

[Teken]

Teken,

I plan on having this valve placed on the main. Hopefully we will be good about just turning the water off when we leave the house. I may add water off to the away and home buttons in addition to separate controls. I have room near our door for a dedicated switchlinc. I seen your videos on YouTube. We have a backup generator so hopefully insteon signals will be transmitted if we lose power. As I have written before, it is very unlikely that we will lose power since I just paid big bucks for the generator. Obviously there is no perfect system. We have too many fixtures to do local control which is why I went with the main shut off.

Hearing stories from people I know about water leaks makes investment in some type of system worth while. I do like the flow meter system as well.

Thank you for your feedback, I was hoping you would post.

Eric

 

EricK,

 

If you're using this in a pro active method as stated above. That would be a great solution because you're making the decision to cut off the flow of water.

 

I am just leery about using Insteon as the sole notifier and actuator in any mission critical system. I do however believe Insteon can be a great back up to a primary system. This is the methodology I have built my system(s) upon.

 

The convenience, alert notifications, and scene inclusion, are the key attributes I like about Insteon. Have you tested out your back up generator to see if the AC produced is acceptable and can operate via the PLM, Leak Sensor, to the I/O Link?

 

I would love to hear how this works out.

 

As this could be another great reference thread for those to follow your foot steps.

 

Teken . . .

[Teken]

About your delay question...If a pipe breaks a completely open a main pipe can flow anywhere between 10 to 30 gallons per minute maybe more depending on pressure.

 

Do you want to wait or shut off the water?

 

Someone inconvenienced in the shower is much better than getting out the shop vac, IMHO.

 

As far as shutting off the water when leaving, If you have proper sensor placement and you have tested your setup you should be fine.

 

Think if you have visitors or you're on vacation and someone has to watch the place, are they going to know all of your specialized HA information?

 

I use my Elk M1 to control the water shutoff that I have. I have a button on the main alarm keypad at the front door that flashes if the valve is activated and is closed. Once the water alarm is investigated and cleared, someone can simply hit the flashing button to open the valve again.

 

I agree with Gatchel about the delay.

 

This is why local control must be deployed as there are many gallons / litres in the line. This is why a layered approach is key in critical system such as these.

 

All of the point of use items in my home are controlled independently but work as a integrated system to reduce damage, and loss of life. I have personally not installed my main line water valve until I am completely satisfied the other systems are 100%.

 

Testing and validation is paramount at all times along with regular monthly checks.

 

Teken . . .

[EricK]

Thanks for the replies. I think placing a switchlinc by the door with labels, water off and water on will help. Plus maybe a keypad indicator to show the valve status. Once I have the valve installed with a bypass bypass I'll need to have a users manual so anyone can see how to bypass the valve, essentially disabling the shut off system. I will avoid the shut off delay and just use direct scene control.

My parents have a Generac generator in Fla and their insteon switches work fine when on back-up. I'll have to do a good test of my system when on back-up.

Eric

[Teken]

Thanks for the replies. I think placing a switchlinc by the door with labels, water off and water on will help. Plus maybe a keypad indicator to show the valve status. Once I have the valve installed with a bypass bypass I'll need to have a users manual so anyone can see how to bypass the valve, essentially disabling the shut off system. I will avoid the shut off delay and just use direct scene control.

My parents have a Generac generator in Fla and their insteon switches work fine when on back-up. I'll have to do a good test of my system when on back-up.

Eric

 

EricK,

 

Worst case scenario is placing the water shut off valve on a UPS system. I did that initially for a few small sub systems while I deployed a much larger whole house UPS back up. I also installed a few dedicated circuits in the home which are backed up by independent UPS systems just in case.

 

A little over kill for most but this is a life long hobby for me so no real harm other than a lighter wallet!

 

Teken . . .

[Teken]

Where did I/O guys reply go to?

 

Great deployment strategy for sure. Another thing I did was to have a none electrical device which could supplement these electrical devices.

 

They are a burst type water line.

 

Teken . . .

[io_guy]

Where did I/O guys reply go to?

Odd.

I just grabbed it from my comp again (didn't close the browser), not sure why it didn't post properly.

 

I would never trust Insteon, Elk, whatever for water security (especially wireless). Bottom line is the fewer components in the mix, the less can go wrong.

 

My water valve is normally closed, so no power kills it. This may be bad for some people, but my power is quite stable here. If there was ever an outage I could just manual override the valve itself.

My water sensor is on the basement floor, normally closed and hard wired in series with an Insteon output (NC) and the valve. This allows the sensor to control the valve directly and also allows me to remotely kill the water as well.

 

Just my preference.

[apostolakisl]

I have the Elk WSV and the Elk panel. I have about 40 hard wired water sensors under all the fixtures and water using appliances. It has successfully dedicted one leak under the dishwasher that I would not have otherwise found until way too late. As it is, I had some minor buckling of my hardwood floor in the kitchen, but it could have been way worse since the leak was such that it was tracking under the floor, not on top. Sadly, there is no way to dry the space under the floor, so I had to just let it dry, and it did every so slightly buckle the floor a couple weeks later right in front of the dishwasher. But that beats the entire kitchen floor being trashed.

 

I have the Elk shut off the house main every time we arm the system to away after a 30 minute delay to allow for dishwasher/washer to finish if already running. Not ideal, I know, but wife wouldn't have it any other way. But this prevents any sort of leak when out of the house (at least after 30 minutes of not being at the house), regardless of water sensor operation.

 

You can never prevent 100% of leaks. I know 2 people who have leaks in their copper pipes right in the middle of a pipe. You obviously can't put leak detectors under every foot of pipe in your house. So you have to play the odds. A flow sensor style may have picked that up. But in my father's case, that would have done no good. It was a pipe in the ceiling above the kitchen, there would have been no way to know where to look until you saw the damage in the ceiling. It literally was a hole so small that the water spray I mistook for a cobweb and when I put my hand through it I couldn't even feel the water until I left it there for several seconds.

 

Since I use hardwired Elk sensors and my Elk has 6 hours of backup, I should be covered pretty darn well as far as power outage. But having power failure and water leak at the same time is mostly unlikely. Aside from perhaps freezing pipes coinciding with a power failure, but usually power failures from cold weather happen around the 32 mark from heavy snow or more likely freezing rain, and that really isn't cold enough to freeze pipes. Plus they usually don't leak until after it warms again, and by that time power is typically restored. If you are out of town during such an event, no worries, the water is already off at my house (unless it happned in the first 30 minutes of being out of town). Of course if you have a potential pipe freezing event, it would be a good idea to not rely on the automated system but do an actual in depth manual check of all items at risk.

 

Also keep in mind that ANYTHING YOU DO to shut your water off in the event of a leak is way more than 99% of people do since most people do notta. So even a system with some shortcomings still puts you way ahead of the curve and reduce a relatively small risk to a very small risk. Just make sure that you don't install a completely useless setup since that is just a waste of money.

 

Also realize that most water events are not full out gushing open lines. Probably the only common exception to that is a ruptured washer hose. So get a good hose and make sure you take the effort to put a highly reliable and quick shut off mechanism under the washer. Most other water damage occurs from slow leaks that go undetected for long periods of time. So a slightly flawed system under such items may not get you instant shut off.

 

Since your house is already built and an extensive hard wired system is probably out of the question, I would try to gauge the relative risk at any given location and install something at each location that balances the cost of installation against the cost/probability of an event at that location.

[Teken]

Another cheap and easy trick I have been using is placing a large (width) shallow container under each sink. This allows you to catch a small dripping leak while it pools in a confined space. This is where I have placed the Insteon Leak Sensors & the Flood Stop grid sensor(s).

 

Works great and the added bonus is its used to hold odds and ends like hair spray, tissue, etc.

 

Teken . . .

[EricK]

Great suggestions all around. Will have to pick up some Tupperware to put under each sink. The water leak stories that scare me the most are the ones where people come home to a swimming pool in their house. So turning off the water when not home is probably the best idea to prevent significant damage. Making this easy with a remote switch makes it more likely that this will happen. Next line is to have metal hoses on the washer and local detection devices. I'll have 9 to start with, but would probably need 25 for good coverage. The flow meter idea is good, but there would be a problem if my wife did some laundry, then ran the dishwasher and the water cut off when he tried to take a shower. I'll consider a battery back up for the valve, but I do not think I will need it. I agree that the chance of a water leak is small and no system is fail safe. We did have a small leak from our pantry fridge water line that was luckily detected by the cleaning girl very early. I just want to minimize the risk of the swimming pool.

Thanks for making this thread a great read.

Eric

[apostolakisl]

For you to actually shut your water off every time you leave the house, linking with a security system is sort of a must. You might actually shut it off as its own thing when you leave, but I bet you/your wife forget/lose interest. In fact, I have two remotes buttons in the car, one just does the normal garage door, the other shuts the door, sets the alarm, turns off the water and does a number of other things like put the house lights into away mode, shut of the tv, etc. With the simplicity, we never neglect to properly set the house to un-attended mode.

 

Regarding the flow sensor types, I don't own one, but I believe they have algorithms that manage to ignore regular usage and not confuse that with a leak. But you would have to do more research on the subject. I know someone who has one and he has never complained about the water being shut off during regular usage.

 

The "swimming pool in the house" is an obvious disaster in very short order. But small leaks while away for a few days can also be a disaster. Shutting the water off when out of town is an absolute must. In fact, I used to do that even years ago the old fashioned way, I turned the valve by hand. As far as the massive damage in short time, every story I have ever come across on that is the washing machine hose. It happened to my parents next door neighbor a few years ago and trashed their house in 2 hours while out to dinner.

[larryllix]

Another cheap and easy trick I have been using is placing a large (width) shallow container under each sink. This allows you to catch a small dripping leak while it pools in a confined space. This is where I have placed the Insteon Leak Sensors & the Flood Stop grid sensor(s).

 

Works great and the added bonus is its used to hold odds and ends like hair spray, tissue, etc.

 

Teken . . .

You may want to fasten the thing down so you don't come home to a Tupperware boat floating across the floor keeping a leak sensor high and dry as it floats across the room!

[tbossela]

Folks - I am at the beginning stages of setting up this Elk valve with an Insteon IO controller and relay. Could someone who has done it please post a wiring diagram/schematic? It is not entirely clear to me how to integrate the 4 parts - the power supply, valve, relay and IO Link. Thanks in advance - Tony

[EricK]

Tony,

Took a while for me to get this straight, studying the YouTube link, reading and watching videos about relays. I do have a sketch but can't scan it right now. I bought an automotive relay with the wiring harness. Hopefully I will have the plumber out in a week to install the valve.

 

Power supply + to io linc com

Elk red wire to no

Elk white wire to nc

 

The relay has a magnet for leads 85 and 86, so when power is sent thru, the magnet turns on, closing the relay switch and the circuit between 30 and 87.

Elk green to 86

Relay 30 and 87 to io linc sensor and ground. When the valve closes, power is sent out the green wire, activating the relay magnet, closing the relay, you will hear it click, completing the 30 87 circuit, turning the sensor on.

 

Grounds are last.

Connect relay 85 and elk black to power supply negative/ground.

Let me know if this works.

Eric

[tbossela]

Thanks EricK - Your explanation of the magnet helped me understand how the relay worked. I sketched and attached a wiring diagram - if the community could scan it for accuracy and comment it would be appreciated - plus I figure a sketch will be helpful to others who follow behind. Thanks - Tony

[shannong]

I'm working on my solution for this right now as well. I appreciate all the comments and ideas on this thread. I chose the (much!) more expensive Elk valve instead of the Smarthome-branded option or other similar choices due to the ability to detect the state of the valve (open or closed) and because of the built-in manual on/off handle. I also also have more comfort with such a product from a professional security company on the second generation of the product vs the more cheap looking option from SH and a few others.

 

Mine will be triggered by my ISY instead of my Elk M1 to due wiring difficulties. Sure, power is my enemy in this case but I'm measuring the risk vs probability vs cost and I'm happy with where I end up. I'm in the South where we don't experience power outages associated with cold weather (not once in my 35 yrs here) when the rare freeze-broken pipe down here is also a threat. Power outages have been rare overall so it would have to be a rare fluke to have a pipe burst during a power outage. (fingers crossed) Perhaps in the future will all the other HA projects are done I'll upgrade it with a hard wire to the Elk M1 and add a UPS to the local 12V supply.

 

I also created a diagram of sorts using the beginnings from tbossela and wiring instructions from EricK plus a bit of googling to verify pin #s, etc. I tried to make it a cross between a conceptual diagram and a schematic to get the best of both worlds to make it easy for the typical DIY'er to understand. I created it in Visio if anyone wants the source file to make their own modifications. I created my own IOLinc dummy for the diagram which you might find useful for other drawings. The Elk diagram came from their documentation plus a random image of power supply off the interwebs.

 

I ordered the following relay from Amazon for a few bucks. There is a 5-pin wiring harness available to make the connections easy with the to easily disconnect/reconnect.

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000PHLQJW/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[tbossela]

I wish I had come across some of the other relays as proposed by shannong et al. In hindsight I do not recommend using an OMR-C-112 type relay unless you really enjoy doing micro-vascular surgery. Trying to solder to tiny pins, which are very close together and dealing with heat shrink tubing without breaking the connections etc. was a PITA. And I doubt it will hold up reliably.

 

An automotive type relay with a harness makes a whole lot more sense.

 

Other then that the diagrams look identical.

 

Also - it is worth noting that Smarthome had the ELK on sale for $359. So deals can be had.

 

12841 Elk Electric Water Shutoff Valve (Hot Deal!) $359.95 $359.95

[shannong]

Smarthome apparently was monitoring this thread and realized a mistake. The price just jumped to $514. Drats.

[EricK]

Great job with the diagrams guys. Plumber is set to come out next Friday. I want to have them install the valve with a bypass with 2 three way levers. Will also try to keep a regular shut off valve. Something like this

With 2 of these to be able to divert water thru the bypass:

and one of these before the set up:

Eric

[shannong]

That's my plan for the most part for the inlet setup.

 

However, I had planned to put a 1/4-turn ball valve for the main shutoff before the "D" supplying the WSV2. I see you're using a compression valve. It's my belief and understanding that ball valves are more reliable than compression valves and in the event of a catastrophic leak a ball valve is easier and quicker to shutoff with a 1/4 turn vs several rotations of a compression valve. Especially if the contraption itself is spraying water as the source of the leak. Or think of somebody besides you needing to shut it off. It's hard to get a 1/4 turn on a ball valve wrong vs a compression valve. Panic..Panic... Which way? Turn.. Turn.. Other way.. Turn....Turn...Keep going!

 

 

Main water line --1/4 turn ball shutoff----3-way ball valve---D-ring---WSV2 on top---straight pipe on bottom-- 3-way ball valve---> house inlet

 

 

What are you thoughts on that?

[EricK]

Shannon,

Sounds like you know more about plumbing than I do, but what you describe looks good to me.

Eric

[apostolakisl]

What is the purpose of the bypass? The only use I see is if you wanted to remove the Elk valve without interrupting water to the house. But I see that as a bit overkill since the Elk valve is pretty bullet proof and most home owners can go a few hours without water even if it did need to be removed.

 

I would recommend using a union on one side or the other of the Elk. If you do need to remove it, there is no way to remove it without a union on at least one end without cutting copper. A union allows you to unhook one end and then spin the valve off of the threads at the other end (provided you leave enough clearance around the valve to spin it, otherwise you need unions at both ends).

 

I bought 2 of them from http://www.surveillent.com/elk-elk-wsv- ... valve.aspx The price was less than $300 when I got them (each). Surveillent does not win any awards for customer service, but I did get them after about a month and they were correct.

 

EDIT: And one more suggestion. Program your alarm system to turn the water off when it is armed away. This takes care of the risk of a power failure and pipe burst happening at the same time. If you are home and a pipe bursts, you can do a manual shut off. If you aren't home, then the water is already off. I put a 30 minute delay so my wife can have the washer finish a load . . . I don't like it, but I can't convince my wife to not start laundry/dishwasher and then leave.