shannong Posted March 2, 2014 Posted March 2, 2014 Greetings. I'm in the process of setting up my leak detection accompanied with an auto shutoff valve. I'll be using the Elk WSV2 to shut off the main water inlet. It will be controlled by my Elk M1 alarm system rather than the ISY directly, although the ISY will be able to trigger it via the integration module. I can't wire all the areas of the house I need leak detection so I must use wireless. I had purchased a two Insteon Leak sensors but haven't been impressed so far. Insteon RF is attenuated drastically through wood, etc. Also, my device count I'll need at least 16 and I didn't like the idea of spending $440+ more dollars on sensors (4 packs at Costco for $100). I'm also worried about the reliability of the Insteon RF signal and lack of functionality during power outages. My Elk system also has a Honeywell wireless receiver. I had several old 5816 wireless sensors (standard wireless door sensors) from the previous system and decided to see if I could make my own simple, cheap, and reliable sensor. The 5816 has an internal set of contacts (N/O or N/C) for wiring an external zone in addition to the internal reed. I connected these contacts to two wires that I screwed out the backplate and serving as external wet sensors that close the N/O contacts. I've tested it and it works great. This RF signal provides much better coverage especially when put behind cabinets, appliances, etc where the Insteon RF is challenged. The battery in these guys last easily 5 years. They provide a low battery notice and generate a device failure if a heartbeat hasn't been received in 12 hours. You can buy a 10 pack of these for ~$185 making the price per device ~$18. Since I plan to have the Elk control the shutoff valve, it's preferable to have the Elk sense the leak. The Elk and its Honeywell wireless module are more reliable than Insteon and ISY (Insteon protocol issues not an ISY issue). Also, the Elk security system has a battery backup than lasts more than a week and I can use a small battery backup on the power supply for the shutoff valve which means I can detect leaks during power outage AND still shutoff the supply valve. That isn't possible with any scenario involving Insteon products. Another advantage is that you can mount the 5816 on the wall/cabinet off the floor away from water damage and have the wires extend to the surface (rather than screws penetrating the backplate) where you want to sense water. For my dishwasher and washing machine, it means I can mount the transmitter accessible easily inside the cabinet with the wires penetrating a small hole into the area to sense water. Makes servicing it super easy. Big bonus for this one. The replacement batters are CR123a and thus cheaper than a AA lithium used by the Insteon devices. Finally, you can use longer screws of your choosing when making the sensor leads to elevate the sensor higher of the floor. Like the Insteon, this unit is not sealed. However, elevating the unit a 1/2" above the surface should suffice in most situations although you could make it as high as you like. If you're using the Elk wireless receiver or GE instead, there are similar versions for those. However, they don't have the cheap transmitter option like the 5816. The pic is my prototype. I'll use different screws for my final version and add two feet to the oppose side to elevate the entire sensor off the floor when not mounting it. Does anyone see problems with my setup and idea? Suggestions? I'd love feedback.
Teken Posted March 2, 2014 Posted March 2, 2014 I believe you're headed in a good direction for starters. But, would suggest that you look into local water control / shut off. The amount of water in the lines is more than enough to cause damage to the immediate area. Areas of concern are the bathroom sinks, toilet's, washer, clothes washer, fridge, kitchen sink. Regardless, what you're doing is having the ability to turn off the main water supply. Which is 100 times more then the average person has ever considered doing so. So, you still get an A for effort. Teken . . .
shannong Posted March 2, 2014 Author Posted March 2, 2014 I'm aware of the issue residual water in the pipes. However, local control at each outlet is challenging. Also, that assumes the problem is AFTER the valve, which may not be the case. I'm toying with the idea of an outside spigot with another control valve attached that would open when a leak sensor fires so that while the main valve is closing to shutoff water to the house that one would be opening to drain pressure and remaining water from the house.
Teken Posted March 2, 2014 Posted March 2, 2014 I'm aware of the issue residual water in the pipes. However, local control at each outlet is challenging. Also, that assumes the problem is AFTER the valve, which may not be the case. I'm toying with the idea of an outside spigot with another control valve attached that would open when a leak sensor fires so that while the main valve is closing to shutoff water to the house that one would be opening to drain pressure and remaining water from the house. That would be a most excellent idea but lots of safety and redundancy need to be implemented for a fail secure deployment. You certainly don't want to come home to find out the main water line is still in the open position and that outside spigot valve also in the wide open position! If you pursue this endeavourer please do track the development and installation of such. Teken . . .
shannong Posted March 2, 2014 Author Posted March 2, 2014 That would be a most excellent idea but lots of safety and redundancy need to be implemented for a fail secure deployment. What would be the safety issues that you're thinking of? I can tell you that I have left the hose on in the backyard MANY times and sometimes even overnight. Sucks for the water bill but I've never observed any safety issues. I was planning to install a pulse flow meter for the hose in the backyard just for that reason. What redundancies are you thinking would be necessary? Seems simple. Add logic in ISY and Elk to check status of both valves which can be done with the Elk valves. If InsideValve is OPEN and OutsideValve is Open THEN Close OutsideValve. Overall it seems low risk. The only risk I see is wasting water and dollars on the water bill. Small cost for the protection added of being able to drain pressure and water from the house during a leak.
Teken Posted March 2, 2014 Posted March 2, 2014 That would be a most excellent idea but lots of safety and redundancy need to be implemented for a fail secure deployment. What would be the safety issues that you're thinking of? I can tell you that I have left the hose on in the backyard MANY times and sometimes even overnight. Sucks for the water bill but I've never observed any safety issues. I was planning to install a pulse flow meter for the hose in the backyard just for that reason. What redundancies are you thinking would be necessary? Seems simple. Add logic in ISY and Elk to check status of both valves which can be done with the Elk valves. If InsideValve is OPEN and OutsideValve is Open THEN Close OutsideValve. Overall it seems low risk. The only risk I see is wasting water and dollars on the water bill. Small cost for the protection added of being able to drain pressure and water from the house during a leak. As of indicated in the other thread having the ability to bypass the system manually is paramount. Next in my mind is to have a back up system that does not rely on electricity should it not be present or if there is a failure in communications. A perfect example of this is my back up sump pump system. There are three systems at play here one being the standard 120 VAC primary pump. Should that fail the secondary pump will kick in if water rises to its level. Should that also fail due to a bad pump, drained battery, or electronic failure. The third system uses main water lines pressure to evacuate the water from the sump pit. In your case you need something that measures the water pressure mechanically and the position of the primary shut off valve. At that point something else needs to be able to react to this condition all the while confirming the release of water in the lines is required. Teken . . .
shannong Posted March 2, 2014 Author Posted March 2, 2014 I don't see any issues you bring up in your last post that are relevant to safety as originally warned about. As for redundancy, I already mentioned in the original post that my Elk already has a battery backup for a week and plans for battery backup for the valves. Manual options are obviously available as the Elk valves have a handle for manual operation to open and close them. I also plan to program a Function key on the Elk for controlling the valves. I don't see anything about this system that poses the need for additional level of backup. These things are a risk (probability combined with impact) vs cost vs benefit analysis. The risk is low as the probability is low (long term power outage, failed valve, etc) and the impact of wasting water is low. So the cost to add additional systems or another level of backup seems unwarranted. If I'm missing something please help drive home the idea.
apostolakisl Posted March 2, 2014 Posted March 2, 2014 As long as you get a notification that the water detector tripped, the idea is to go there with a towel and dry up whatever leaked. Mine is connected to the Elk which is connected to a monitoring co. which calls me, along with ISY sending emails. No matter what, there will always be water there, that is the only way the leak detector can detect a leak, so you pretty much need to go dry it up no matter what. I understand that you will have somewhat more water, but I doubt that will change the big picture of going there and drying it up which results in damage avoided. Trying to put a local automatic shut off all over the place like that would be a challenge for sure. I suppose having a faucet somewhere that you can set to remotely turn on and relieve the pressure may be reasonable, but I'm questioning whether it will actually change the end result. . . which is you must show up with a towel. If you are out of town, then you need to have a person with access to the house no matter what.
shannong Posted March 2, 2014 Author Posted March 2, 2014 I suppose having a faucet somewhere that you can set to remotely turn on and relieve the pressure may be reasonable, but I'm questioning whether it will actually change the end result. . . which is you must show up with a towel. By that argument, all shutoff valves are a waste since the end result is the same in that you must still show up with a towel to clean up what leaked out before the valve shutoff the water. The expected end result change with any shutoff valve is to reduce as much as possible the amount of water to leak out, clean up, and avoid damage. Obviously the main shutoff means the leak can't go on for ever. Great start and if I only accomplish that I'll feel much better. My idea of a supplemental exterior drain valve may or may not help. I plan to test with one of my outside faucets and some simulated leaks. Logically to me it seems it would have a noticeable impact as there is still pressure in the lines when the main is shutoff and that pressure is pushing water out whatever leak you have. And having a place for water to drain out means gravity is robbed of it's push on getting water out as well. Especially if the drain is at an outside spigot with a hose that is on a downhill grade so that it's lower than the pipes in the slab thus siphoning and draining as much as possible. On the side of my house, that's easily possible. I'll let you know the results of my testing.
Teken Posted March 3, 2014 Posted March 3, 2014 The hot water tank is another area you need to consider interrupting. Teken . . . Encrypted By: Phoenix Security Solutions
shannong Posted March 3, 2014 Author Posted March 3, 2014 The hot water tank is another area you need to consider interrupting. I was trying to noodle through that one. I was contemplating whether it would be necessary to have a drain valve for the hot water lines and the cold water to be most effective. Seems like I would if the goal is to remove as much water from the house lines to reduce the amount that can leak inside. As for interrupting the hot water heater itself at the inlet and outlet pipes, I couldn't come up with a reason for putting anything there. Water exits the top of the tank to enter the house so without water pressure it can only pull in water via siphoning which I don't think would happen in most circumstances. With a drain open outside for on the hot water pipes, that definitely wouldn't be possible. The hot water heater is in the garage and obviously holds a lot of water. If it was leaking and the water supply was shutoff, it would drain itself out in the garage on a floor sloped to drain out towards the door. No real harm.
apostolakisl Posted March 9, 2014 Posted March 9, 2014 I believe you're headed in a good direction for starters. But, would suggest that you look into local water control / shut off. The amount of water in the lines is more than enough to cause damage to the immediate area. Areas of concern are the bathroom sinks, toilet's, washer, clothes washer, fridge, kitchen sink. Regardless, what you're doing is having the ability to turn off the main water supply. Which is 100 times more then the average person has ever considered doing so. So, you still get an A for effort. Teken . . . Just for fun, I put my water pressure gauge on my washing machine hose bib and measured 60 psi in the system. Turned off the Elk valve. Ran 2 cups of water out of the line. The pressure went from 60 psi to 15 psi. I drained 2 more cups, the pressure dropped to 5 psi. Lets assume a slow leak. These are very psi dependent. After a cup or two of water is out, the pressure drop will almost certainly cause it to stop leaking. So putting a bunch of extra valves all over the place at best would save you a cup or 2 of water leakage. Lets assume a catastrophic failure. . . a complete rupture of a line. You might see an additional 8 cups of water after the valve shuts off. But the shut off takes a few seconds. Water has to hit the leak sensor, leak sensor has to trigger valve and valve has to shut. So no matter what you are going to see several gallons of water spewing out. At that point, what is a few cups more? The greatly added cost and complexity of valving all over the place seems unlikely to be cost effective.
shannong Posted March 9, 2014 Author Posted March 9, 2014 Just for fun, I put my water pressure gauge on my washing machine hose bib and measured 60 psi in the system. Turned off the Elk valve. Ran 2 cups of water out of the line. The pressure went from 60 psi to 15 psi. I drained 2 more cups, the pressure dropped to 5 psi. Lets assume a slow leak. These are very psi dependent. After a cup or two of water is out, the pressure drop will almost certainly cause it to stop leaking. So putting a bunch of extra valves all over the place at best would save you a cup or 2 of water leakage. Lets assume a catastrophic failure. . . a complete rupture of a line. You might see an additional 8 cups of water after the valve shuts off. But the shut off takes a few seconds. Water has to hit the leak sensor, leak sensor has to trigger valve and valve has to shut. So no matter what you are going to see several gallons of water spewing out. At that point, what is a few cups more? The greatly added cost and complexity of valving all over the place seems unlikely to be cost effective. Thanks for the experimental data.
apostolakisl Posted March 9, 2014 Posted March 9, 2014 Just for fun, I put my water pressure gauge on my washing machine hose bib and measured 60 psi in the system. Turned off the Elk valve. Ran 2 cups of water out of the line. The pressure went from 60 psi to 15 psi. I drained 2 more cups, the pressure dropped to 5 psi. Lets assume a slow leak. These are very psi dependent. After a cup or two of water is out, the pressure drop will almost certainly cause it to stop leaking. So putting a bunch of extra valves all over the place at best would save you a cup or 2 of water leakage. Lets assume a catastrophic failure. . . a complete rupture of a line. You might see an additional 8 cups of water after the valve shuts off. But the shut off takes a few seconds. Water has to hit the leak sensor, leak sensor has to trigger valve and valve has to shut. So no matter what you are going to see several gallons of water spewing out. At that point, what is a few cups more? The greatly added cost and complexity of valving all over the place seems unlikely to be cost effective. Thanks for the experimental data. Just for the sake of completeness, I do not have an expansion tank on the hot water tank . . . I don't have a hot water tank (I have tankless). If you had relief tank, you would have maybe 1/2 gallon of reserve pressure. Also, I suppose if you had a hot water tank in the attic, you would have more of an issue with gravity and stuff. How much I don't know, it wouldn't take too long for the vacuum to set up and stop flow from the tank. But most people put the hot water tank in the lowest part of the house (basement/garage).
shannong Posted March 10, 2014 Author Posted March 10, 2014 Last time I worked on the hot water heater I needed to drain it. After shutting off the water, I opened the closest hot water faucet so air could be pulled into the system and allow the tank to drain faster. The water drained out of the hot water faucet (presumably from upstairs) for about 30 min.
KHouse Posted March 10, 2014 Posted March 10, 2014 So the question is: If the hot water line on a faucet breaks, will the entire hot water contents run out? If the cold line breaks, then it would continue running presumably until the whole house water is shut off. So...should you have an automatic shutoff valve on the hot water line right after the water heaters, as well as on the whole house main water line? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
apostolakisl Posted March 10, 2014 Posted March 10, 2014 So the question is: If the hot water line on a faucet breaks, will the entire hot water contents run out? If the cold line breaks, then it would continue running presumably until the whole house water is shut off. So...should you have an automatic shutoff valve on the hot water line right after the water heaters, as well as on the whole house main water line? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1) none of the hot water tank will empty if the break in the line is at a higher elevation than the tank. Most tanks are in the lowest room in the house and most water lines, at their lowest, are at least a couple feet higher than the floor of the room they are in. 2) if the hot water tank is higher than the break, it will only leak until a vacuum develops. Water can't leave the tank if air can't get in. 3) if the "break" is just a drip type leak, it will stop when the psi drops sufficiently.
KHouse Posted March 10, 2014 Posted March 10, 2014 That makes sense. Thanks. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
KHouse Posted April 27, 2014 Posted April 27, 2014 Shannong, would you mind sharing a picture of the inside of the 5816, with how you have the screws placed/connected? I'm very soon purchasing my Elk setup, having decided after much debate between GE and Honeywell to go with Honeywell for most sensors, for now anyway, and like the idea of using your setup for leak sensors (vs. the Insteon I have been now - luckily I've been slowly adding insteon so I didn't have too much invested in water sensors).
KHouse Posted April 27, 2014 Posted April 27, 2014 Also, just for reference, here's a link to someone who used GE's crystal technology door/window sensor connected to a hobby boards leaf wetness sensor for the same result: http://cocoontech.com/forums/topic/1641 ... omsearch=1
shannong Posted April 27, 2014 Author Posted April 27, 2014 Also, just for reference, here's a link to someone who used GE's crystal technology door/window sensor connected to a hobby boards leaf wetness sensor for the same result: http://cocoontech.com/forums/topic/1641 ... omsearch=1 I couldn't see the pic since I don't have an account there. I chose the Honeywell sensor because it's super cheap and just the right form factor and size.
shannong Posted April 27, 2014 Author Posted April 27, 2014 I simply drilled four holes and used #4-40 3/8" screws. For two of the screws I screwed on wire leads made made out of 20AWG wire. In a few spots where I wanted to detect water in space not easily accessible like behind the dish washer I created a wall mount using a cheap drawer glide mount that I picked up at Home Depot for about a buck. This allowed me to drill a hole in the cabinet and mount the sensor in the cabinet next to the washer so I could service it without pulling out the dish washer. I did that for all my sensors for appliances like the fridge, washing machine, etc. For this one I actually used nuts to screw on and hold the screws because the plastic was too soft to hold the screw on it's own.
KHouse Posted April 27, 2014 Posted April 27, 2014 Thanks! What are the screws connected to / touching inside the case? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
KHouse Posted April 27, 2014 Posted April 27, 2014 I see that now with the additional pics. Do you have a pic of where it's wired/soldered to the board? Thanks again!! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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