Whole house surge protection

[raymondh]

I'm looking at adding whole house surge protection. Will this cause issues with insteon communication?

[Teken]

I'm looking at adding whole house surge protection. Will this cause issues with insteon communication?

 

I have been using an entire three layer whole house surge protection for my home for more than five years without issue. It is one of the best pieces of gear you can install into your home to provide some form of electrical protection.

[raymondh]

Can you share the details of what you are using?

[stusviews]

I use a Leviton 51120-1 in a home with more that 100 INSTEON devices.

[Teken]

Can you share the details of what you are using?

 

I have a Leviton Type 1 surge ring protector at the service entrance protecting the entire home from the POCO. The service panel is protected by a Sycom Secondary Type 2 120/240 surge protector. About 80% of all the outlets in the home are protected by Type 3 Leviton surge alarm outlets.

 

There are many Point Of Use Type 3 Tripp Lite ISOTOL surge strips to provide more outlets and protection. Anything that requires back up power is routed to many APC UPS systems.

 

Some critical systems in the home are wired behind SSR's, Transformers, and Opto Isolators.

 

This is a on going Home Automation installation thread that provides more insight and the brands and models I have in use:  http://www.brultech.com/community/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=929&start=40

 

Please let me know if you have any further questions.

[apostolakisl]

I also have 3 of the Leviton 51120-1 

 

I put one each on my 3 panels.  These do not conflict with Insteon comm.

 

I do not really know if they work.  I can tell you that while I was out of town a big lightening storm happened and I returned to find one of my Elk relays running a sprinkler zone stuck on and my OBI 110 with a fried telephone output.  However, all of these fried things were on the output side of these devices, not the 120v input side.  So maybe the Leviton did save things?

[paulbates]

I have an intermatic I added about 12 years ago. I don't have any signal problems I attribute to it. It looks like the same case as this, though mine has 2 LEDs, one per phase.

We have bad, noise power in my area and I attribute this device to no fried HA that I know of in 13 years.

 

Its an Intermatic IG1240RC3 and mine is very similar to this

[bipto]

I have also run the Intermatic IG1240RC3 since before I started my Insteon build out with no comm issues...  As others have said there's really no way to tell if it's done any good, but in 2.5 years the only Insteon device I've had to replace is a PLM...

[NeilP]

I'm looking at adding whole house surge protection. Will this cause issues with insteon communication?

 

I have an Eaton CHSPT2 Ultra whole home surge protector on my main panel. I also have a number of point-of-use Belkin single outlet surge protectors on various appliances in the house to minimize spikes into the line from those appliances. I also have a couple of EZIO4x2s plugged directly into the same type of Belkin units. I did modify all of the Belkin units to remove the filter capacitor from them to prevent "signal sucking".  The Eaton unit did not have any noise filter in it. I cant say that I have experienced any Insteon signal deterioration due to the surge suppressor units.

 

I test the suppressors with the battery and voltmeter technique described by another poster on this forum. That works quite well to identify if a unit has a capacitor in it. I also use an electronic Megger meter and recording DVM that I have to test the actual surge suppression capability of the units. The Megger puts out a selectable high DC voltage which drives the internal MOVs into conduction. The recording DVM captures the maximum voltage that occurs when the MOVs start to clamp. One has to convert from VAC RMS to DC to compare measured performance to published specification and my test results never meet spec but at least they do indicate that the MOVs are working giving me some level of confidence that it is worthwhile installing these units. For the record, the whole home unit does clamp at a higher voltage than the point of use units....which is as it should be.

 

Neil

[Teken]

I have an Eaton CHSPT2 Ultra whole home surge protector on my main panel. I also have a number of point-of-use Belkin single outlet surge protectors on various appliances in the house to minimize spikes into the line from those appliances. I also have a couple of EZIO4x2s plugged directly into the same type of Belkin units. I did modify all of the Belkin units to remove the filter capacitor from them to prevent "signal sucking".  The Eaton unit did not have any noise filter in it. I cant say that I have experienced any Insteon signal deterioration due to the surge suppressor units.

 

I test the suppressors with the battery and voltmeter technique described by another poster on this forum. That works quite well to identify if a unit has a capacitor in it. I also use an electronic Megger meter and recording DVM that I have to test the actual surge suppression capability of the units. The Megger puts out a selectable high DC voltage which drives the internal MOVs into conduction. The recording DVM captures the maximum voltage that occurs when the MOVs start to clamp. One has to convert from VAC RMS to DC to compare measured performance to published specification and my test results never meet spec but at least they do indicate that the MOVs are working giving me some level of confidence that it is worthwhile installing these units. For the record, the whole home unit does clamp at a higher voltage than the point of use units....which is as it should be.

 

Neil

 

As Neil indicated this is why several layers of surge protection must be used and deployed. The let through voltage / current for the whole house panel is much higher. Also, a whole house even a meter base surge ring does not protect your equipment from internally generated surge / spikes.

 

Such as those from large motors like fridge, sump, compressors, HVAC.

 

Using different types of *point of use* surge protectors with different technologies will provide the most electrical protection at the device level. 

[easytim]

I use a line conditioner (see photo) for all my computers - router - ISY-994i - stereo - audio router - WIFI controller and LED lighting controls and I also have  whole protection along with about 5 surge arrest protectors made by APC that plug into the local outlets as a double backup.

 

I live in a place where there is more lighning than anywhere in the USA

[NeilP]

As Neil indicated this is why several layers of surge protection must be used and deployed. The let through voltage / current for the whole house panel is much higher. Also, a whole house even a meter base surge ring does not protect your equipment from internally generated surge / spikes.

 

Such as those from large motors like fridge, sump, compressors, HVAC.

 

Using different types of *point of use* surge protectors with different technologies will provide the most electrical protection at the device level.

 

Taken.....I noticed on your Brultech blog (which I found extremely interesting BTW) that you used some Leviton surge suppressor receptacles. I had planned on using those also but the Leviton web page states that the units have noise filtering built in which means that they would act a some sort of signal sucker. Have you noticed any Insteon signal deterioration due to these units?

Neil

[Teken]

Hello Neil,

Using only one on a circuit is fine and will not impact the Insteon signal. Using more than one on the same branch circuit will absorb / suck any power line communications.

I saw this first hand when I needed a temporary internet drop and used one of my Trendnet power line Ethernet adapters.

The diagnostic led indicated the signal was very degraded and the actual connection was very slow.

Also keep in mind these devices do not protect down stream circuits like a GFCI does. This is why I had to install so many of these surge alarm outlets instead of having one at the start of the branch circuit.

I wanted to call that out if the documentation was unclear about that aspect. The install thread was created as a place holder for historic review and to share my experience about new technology and how best to integrate it all into one system.

It was also intended to help foster the growth of each product mentioned while also helping out fellow enthusiasts such as yourself.

It's a pretty long read and some portions are unrelated to one another. But, in the big picture of what I am trying to do which is to manage, control, and promote energy efficiency it all relates to one another.


Encrypted By: Phoenix Security Solutions

[NeilP]

Hello Neil,

Using only one on a circuit is fine and will not impact the Insteon signal. Using more than one on the same branch circuit will absorb / suck any power line communications.

I saw this first hand when I needed a temporary internet drop and used one of my Trendnet power line Ethernet adapters.

The diagnostic led indicated the signal was very degraded and the actual connection was very slow.

Also keep in mind these devices do not protect down stream circuits like a GFCI does. This is why I had to install so many of these surge alarm outlets instead of having one at the start of the branch circuit.

I wanted to call that out if the documentation was unclear about that aspect. The install thread was created as a place holder for historic review and to share my experience about new technology and how best to integrate it all into one system.

It was also intended to help foster the growth of each product mentioned while also helping out fellow enthusiasts such as yourself.

It's a pretty long read and some portions are unrelated to one another. But, in the big picture of what I am trying to do which is to manage, control, and promote energy efficiency it all relates to one another.

Encrypted By: Phoenix Security Solutions

Hi Teken....good comment about protection being different than a GFCI. The MOVs are wired in parallel across the line(s) and ground as are any loads but when one is considering high level surges even though they are of brief duration they can have extremely high voltage and current. At that point the inductance/resistance/capacitance of the powerline must be taken into account whereas under normal operation the power line can be considered almost transparent. This is the real rationale for having a whole home surge suppressor at the entrance to the house to drain off the majority of the transient energy entering the house and then relying on the voltage drop experienced by the remaining transient as it travels down the household power line until it gets to the smaller capacity surge suppressors at each point of use which drain off the remainder of the transient energy. I suspect that most of the point of use units will provide good protection for items downstream of the suppressor but minimal protection for items upstream of the protector for this reason. Just reinforcing the fact that it is not an either/or choice for whole home and point of use suppression but a matter of having both types of protection. Then of course protection on incoming cable tv and telephone lines must be considered also but that is another topic in itself.

 

Neil

[Teken]

Hi Teken....good comment about protection being different than a GFCI. The MOVs are wired in parallel across the line(s) and ground as are any loads but when one is considering high level surges even though they are of brief duration they can have extremely high voltage and current. At that point the inductance/resistance/capacitance of the powerline must be taken into account whereas under normal operation the power line can be considered almost transparent. This is the real rationale for having a whole home surge suppressor at the entrance to the house to drain off the majority of the transient energy entering the house and then relying on the voltage drop experienced by the remaining transient as it travels down the household power line until it gets to the smaller capacity surge suppressors at each point of use which drain off the remainder of the transient energy. I suspect that most of the point of use units will provide good protection for items downstream of the suppressor but minimal protection for items upstream of the protector for this reason. Just reinforcing the fact that it is not an either/or choice for whole home and point of use suppression but a matter of having both types of protection. Then of course protection on incoming cable tv and telephone lines must be considered also but that is another topic in itself.

 

Neil

 

Absolutely, +1

 

Regardless of the type of electrical surge protection one decides to use. It does not supersede the need and confirmation of a solid (low resistance) ground in the building. As you indicated another path for a electrical surge is via cable, telephone, and SAT, entry points.

 

One of the things I did to mitigate such a threat was to switch my telephone / cable to fiber. This completely negates any electrical surges coming over the telco / video line as it comes via fiber optical cable. Even though this measure is in place all of the A/V gear in my home which has coaxial lines still feed through a surge / spike protector.

 

The equipment is there why not use it!   

 

As it was stated in my install thread even with all these safety measures in place. I have dedicated circuits turned off at the panel breaker, and others simply left unplugged.

 

Ironic, isn't it?   

[raymondh]

Excellent info here, thanks! In addition to whole house protection, I would like to use surge protection strips for some devices. Is there a list of which ones don't suck signals or can I just put a Filterlinc on them? Also, I'm assuming that a few UPS's are okay as long as they are on a Filterlinc, right?

[apostolakisl]

The other thing is to make sure you only have 1 ground for your house.  Try to isolate all conduction to ground to one high quality ground.  If you have more than 1 ground, and lightening hits the ground near your house, the earth builds a static potential charge which will drop exponentially with distance from the strike.  For example, if lightening hits a tree 10 feet from the left side of your house and you have a ground there, and then you have another ground on the right side of your house 40 feet away, the charge difference will in some part pass in the one ground, through your house, and to the other ground, since the wires in your house probably are a lower impedance path than the Earth.

 

I like to think of it like a boat on an ocean of waves of electric potential.  You want your whole house :"floating" on one point so it rises and falls together, not thrashing from side to side.

 

The other option is to ring your house with grounds every few feet and tie them all together.  This in effect makes all the grounds behave as one.  But that is not very practical.  This is however how high value, high risk sites are treated.

[NeilP]

Excellent info here, thanks! In addition to whole house protection, I would like to use surge protection strips for some devices. Is there a list of which ones don't suck signals or can I just put a Filterlinc on them? Also, I'm assuming that a few UPS's are okay as long as they are on a Filterlinc, right?

Raymondh......I have three APC brand UPSs in my house each isolated by a Filterlinc. The UPSs were definite signal suckers which I confirmed by testing when I had an X10 only network. I assume that they would also suck Insteon signal if they were not isolated by the Filterlincs. There is no list of non-signal sucking power strips that I know of. One way to identify one is to first look at the manufacturers advertised specs for EMI or noise filtering. This implies the presence of a signal sucking capacitor. The best way is to actually test one. A simple test originally proposed by another forum member and the way that I test them is to connect a 9V battery and voltmeter across the line terminals of the power strip. The voltmeter will read 9V, then remove the battery and watch the voltmeter display. If the display drops immediately to zero volts then there is no capacitor across the line terminals, if the voltmeter takes a second or so to drop to zero then there is a capacitor there evidenced by the fact that it is holding a momentary charge after the battery is disconnected. The longer the period of decay the bigger the capacitor the worse the signal sucking capability. BTW an old analog voltmeter is best for this test, or else a good fast acting digital voltmeter. The cheap $10-20 DVMs do not sample fast enough to catch the decay.

 

Neil

[NeilP]

The other thing is to make sure you only have 1 ground for your house.  Try to isolate all conduction to ground to one high quality ground.  If you have more than 1 ground, and lightening hits the ground near your house, the earth builds a static potential charge which will drop exponentially with distance from the strike.  For example, if lightening hits a tree 10 feet from the left side of your house and you have a ground there, and then you have another ground on the right side of your house 40 feet away, the charge difference will in some part pass in the one ground, through your house, and to the other ground, since the wires in your house probably are a lower impedance path than the Earth.

 

I like to think of it like a boat on an ocean of waves of electric potential.  You want your whole house :"floating" on one point so it rises and falls together, not thrashing from side to side.

 

The other option is to ring your house with grounds every few feet and tie them all together.  This in effect makes all the grounds behave as one.  But that is not very practical.  This is however how high value, high risk sites are treated.

Apostolakis....valid point about a single ground reference. Your example about two ground points on opposite sides of a house is another example about how one has to modify their thinking regarding high energy surges and voltage drop across house wiring during those surges. In my particular case I have a single point ground at the electrical entrance to my house for all utilities entering my house. But because I live in a rural area I also get my water supply from a well which is at the opposite end of my house from the main panel. The electrical code requires that the well casing be bonded to the house grounding system which I have done. However I have to imagine that the 90 foot deep steel casing is a far superior ground than the 12 foot ground rod by my panel. All I can hope is that in the event of a surge that Kirchoff's Law of Current Division applies and that the overall combination of 10 feet of 6 gauge wire to my ground rod is significantly less impedance to ground than the fifty foot run of 12 gauge bonding wire to my well casing.

 

Neil

[apostolakisl]

Apostolakis....valid point about a single ground reference. Your example about two ground points on opposite sides of a house is another example about how one has to modify their thinking regarding high energy surges and voltage drop across house wiring during those surges. In my particular case I have a single point ground at the electrical entrance to my house for all utilities entering my house. But because I live in a rural area I also get my water supply from a well which is at the opposite end of my house from the main panel. The electrical code requires that the well casing be bonded to the house grounding system which I have done. However I have to imagine that the 90 foot deep steel casing is a far superior ground than the 12 foot ground rod by my panel. All I can hope is that in the event of a surge that Kirchoff's Law of Current Division applies and that the overall combination of 10 feet of 6 gauge wire to my ground rod is significantly less impedance to ground than the fifty foot run of 12 gauge bonding wire to my well casing.

 

Neil

 

You might be OK if there is nothing conductive going to your house.  In other words, PVC water pipes and all power/ground lines go from well to electric panel without entering the house.

[raymondh]

Raymondh......I have three APC brand UPSs in my house each isolated by a Filterlinc. The UPSs were definite signal suckers which I confirmed by testing when I had an X10 only network. I assume that they would also suck Insteon signal if they were not isolated by the Filterlincs. There is no list of non-signal sucking power strips that I know of. One way to identify one is to first look at the manufacturers advertised specs for EMI or noise filtering. This implies the presence of a signal sucking capacitor. The best way is to actually test one. A simple test originally proposed by another forum member and the way that I test them is to connect a 9V battery and voltmeter across the line terminals of the power strip. The voltmeter will read 9V, then remove the battery and watch the voltmeter display. If the display drops immediately to zero volts then there is no capacitor across the line terminals, if the voltmeter takes a second or so to drop to zero then there is a capacitor there evidenced by the fact that it is holding a momentary charge after the battery is disconnected. The longer the period of decay the bigger the capacitor the worse the signal sucking capability. BTW an old analog voltmeter is best for this test, or else a good fast acting digital voltmeter. The cheap $10-20 DVMs do not sample fast enough to catch the decay.

Neil

 

 

Am I correct to assume that if I put a Filterlinc on the surge protector, it doesn't matter if that particular surge protector is a signal sucker?

[apostolakisl]

Am I correct to assume that if I put a Filterlinc on the surge protector, it doesn't matter if that particular surge protector is a signal sucker?

 

If you put it between the surge protector and the wall outlet.  The filterlinc isolates anything on its downstream side from the rest of the house.  Of course you can't put anything Insteon on the downstream side either since it will now be isolated from the rest of the house.