What can causes PLM to lose all links ?

[Teken]

It should be noted also if your homes electrical power supply fluctuates a lot this too can take out sensitive electronics which the 2413S PLM is.

 

Despite popular belief electronic devices are not just impacted by outside surges like POCO line voltage swings, and random lightning events. 99% of the out of band micro surges come from with in the home like a fridge, sump, furnace, AC, etc. The most concerning thing people need to understand and realize is most electronics made today are not designed to sustain a voltage sag ( brown out).

 

Power supplies that do not have well regulated systems will react as expected which is when voltage falls - current rises. This increase in current (amperes) will quickly smoke traces, micro controllers, and transistors. Besides voltage sags the next biggest threat is *sustained* voltage rise which exceeds 130 VAC.

 

Most if not all common electronics are designed to operate from 109 - 130 VAC sustained voltages RMS. 

 

This is why the latest Insteon hardware that supports 100-277 VAC 50/60 Hz is such a welcome addition. As the standard home will rarely if ever see (RMS) line voltages in this magnitude. Even if it did since the PSU is designed to sustain these line voltages indefinitely no harm would come to them.

 

Added to the fact some of them have declared they can sustain 1000 volt surges.

 

Unfortunately none of what I have described has been incorporated into the 2413S PLM?!?!  

[sorka]

Going back a few posts, this sounds like there is some kind of significant circuit noise like a motor or a transformer, and possible a filterlinc is not enough. 

 

Is there anything with a motor involved near the PLM, filter or no filter? Like a furnace fan, pool pump, sump pump, dehumidifier? I chronically lost PLMs until I installed one of these to the furnace power feed, it clips peak voltages and I stopped losing PLMs. I eventually replaced the furnace with one with an ECM motor and now its no longer needed. 

 

https://www.amazon.com/X10-Line-Noise-Reducer-XPNR/dp/B0002M5OIY

 

Nothing like that even close.

 

Why do you think line noise would cause the PLM to lose links? And why did this never happen with the 99i and the PLC?

[G W]

We are sorry but no one knows. Turn in a ticket to UDI and see if the company can help.

 

Best regards,

Gary Funk

[larryllix]

Nothing like that even close.

 

Why do you think line noise would cause the PLM to lose links? And why did this never happen with the 99i and the PLC?

PLMs are known to have poor quality power supply filter capacitors in them, and some think power supply noise could affect the memory of the PLM.

 

When the PS caps go bad PLMs lose their links, for sure, so there is a relationship there that electrical noise could also get through and do the same thing.

 

 

Electrical noise is higher frequencies that is hard for the PS capacitors to filter out and can accelerate premature failure.

[Brian H]

The 5 volt logic supply is a small linear regulator. Feed by the unregulated 12 volts that is normally around 20 volts DC.

When the caps where bad. I have seen the 12 volt supply go as low as 6 volts {I did not scope it for noise} and the regulator drop out.

[paulbates]

Nothing like that even close.

 

Why do you think line noise would cause the PLM to lose links? And why did this never happen with the 99i and the PLC?

 

If the noise is significant enough, it can cause component (Capacitor) failure in the 2413 PLM. This is a known problem with the 2413 due to component quality, and was not an issue for the 2412.

 

The diagnostic behavior, when this has happened to me in the past, is that the PLM will start losing links and then eventually fail. Since this is happening repeatedly to multiple PLMs for you, my guess is that something on the powerline is causing the PLM to fail. What you are exactly describing happened to me when using a PLM with Homeseer, not the ISY.  

[sorka]

PLMs are known to have poor quality power supply filter capacitors in them, and some think power supply noise could affect the memory of the PLM.

 

When the PS caps go bad PLMs lose their links, for sure, so there is a relationship there that electrical noise could also get through and do the same thing.

 

 

Electrical noise is higher frequencies that is hard for the PS capacitors to filter out and can accelerate premature failure.

 

If that's the cause of all 4 of my PLMs going bad, then that is pretty sad.

[sorka]

And since this is such a common problem, how come UDI hasn't added a schedulable PLM link audit check so that it can notify you when the links have disappeared or even do an a automatic restoral? They we I confrm it is I select "list links" and none come up. Why can't the ISY do that for me????

[larryllix]

If that's the cause of all 4 of my PLMs going bad, then that is pretty sad.

It is pretty sad but apparently SH has been upping the quility, or trying.

 

OTOH all electronics can be "worn out" early by dirty power. They are only designed to handle so much distortion and noise, or less.

 

You have a lot of lightning strikes in your area?

Got bad service grounding?

Got a bad neutral in your house?

Got a noisy UPS or inverter?

Got bad connections on receptacle wiring?

Bad switching power supply in another electronics piece?

 

These are not the PLM's fault. It's just the canary in the mine that shows it first.

I mympathise with you but the problem needs to be solved without your wallet every time.

[mwester]

And since this is such a common problem, how come UDI hasn't added a schedulable PLM link audit check so that it can notify you when the links have disappeared or even do an a automatic restoral? They we I confrm it is I select "list links" and none come up. Why can't the ISY do that for me????

 

Alas, because the protocol Smart Home designed into the PLM doesn't permit doing that in any reliable manner.  The ISY can request the links from the PLM, but the PLM will abort transmitting the list as soon as it has any other traffic.  So on a large installation, where you'll have lots of links, and lots of devices that are reporting back and forth, it's pretty much impossible to get the full and correct list of PLM links back.  This is a known issue, and its one thing when a human is looking at the results, but it completely kills any possibility of an automated "integrity" task.  It sure would be nice, and not just to detect failing PLMs.