Teken Posted December 21, 2016 Posted December 21, 2016 I would like to add that after my vacuum solder sucker station died. The method used by apostolakisl That blasting the solder off the PCB with my compressor has worked perfectly! I normally wouldn't go this route due to possible contamination from water, oil, etc. But since my compressor has a inline filter to remove the above it wasn't an issue. Watching those solder balls fly off is pretty funny - well besides having to clean up the residue which is a real pain!
apostolakisl Posted December 21, 2016 Posted December 21, 2016 I would like to add that after my vacuum solder sucker station died. The method used by apostolakisl That blasting the solder off the PCB with my compressor has worked perfectly! I normally wouldn't go this route due to possible contamination from water, oil, etc. But since my compressor has a inline filter to remove the above it wasn't an issue. Watching those solder balls fly off is pretty funny - well besides having to clean up the residue which is a real pain! I put blue tape around the area to keep the solder spray off of other stuff. But even if you don't, the solder doesn't bond when it hits since it doesn't have enough heat in it to melt any solder it might splatter on to. Since it doesn't bond, it will rub off with your finger and occasionally it takes a finger nail. But it is super fast and typically completely cleans the hole/pad of solder for easy removal and replacement. I have used canned air also, but I suppose there is like a micro chance the canned air could catch fire. Canned air does burn i you blow it into an open flame, but a soldering tip is a hell of a lot cooler than an open flame. Of course air from a compressor has no flammability issue.
Teken Posted December 21, 2016 Posted December 21, 2016 I put blue tape around the area to keep the solder spray off of other stuff. But even if you don't, the solder doesn't bond when it hits since it doesn't have enough heat in it to melt any solder it might splatter on to. Since it doesn't bond, it will rub off with your finger and occasionally it takes a finger nail. But it is super fast and typically completely cleans the hole/pad of solder for easy removal and replacement. I have used canned air also, but I suppose there is like a micro chance the canned air could catch fire. Canned air does burn i you blow it into an open flame, but a soldering tip is a hell of a lot cooler than an open flame. Of course air from a compressor has no flammability issue. I can honestly admit when I used your method I totally forgot to turn down the pressure from 250 PSI and that board went flying right out of my hands. That was a real *Awww Sh^T moment . . . LOL . . .
apostolakisl Posted December 21, 2016 Posted December 21, 2016 I can honestly admit when I used your method I totally forgot to turn down the pressure from 250 PSI and that board went flying right out of my hands. That was a real *Awww Sh^T moment . . . LOL . . . You got yourself one of those big floor model compressors. I use a pancake compressor at about 150 psi.
Teken Posted December 21, 2016 Posted December 21, 2016 You got yourself one of those big floor model compressors. I use a pancake compressor at about 150 psi. Yes, week end warrior in the man cave - regardless anything over 60 PSI is a little over kill. Given I had a high pressure blow gun attached that really didn't help the situation given the board is so light! That was a real, Doh !!!
jch Posted January 3, 2017 Posted January 3, 2017 First, let me say how much I love this thread and OP (danu1964) and Brian H for all their hard work. Second let me say how disappointed I was to see everyone say they could be added to the list of people with broken and fixed devices only to find out there was no actual list...so here's your list... ... jch 4 failed (2 2413S and 2 2412S if I read that right) 87 total confirmed failed and 52 total confirmed fixed. If it wasn't completely obvious to me that you fixed yours I may have left yours off. Just send me a note if you want to be added! I think the correct count for me is 2 2413S and 1 2412S. I have replaced the caps in my VI.B unit and the LED comes on, which it did not do before. The only other thing I notice is that if I hold the black button it will eventually start beeping. I don't yet have the nerve to try replacing the 2412S I have running now. I had a hard time getting the caps out cleanly; I need a finer tip on my iron and maybe some better eyes. I ruined one trace, but was able to not cut the lead from the cap and solder it where it the trace was headed. I measured the old caps with my Fluke 117 and all read above their marked value except the 6.8uF which read as 6.18uF. I'm not sure if this static test is a good indication. I might still try to fix my V1.0 2413S at some point.
Breezyken Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 My 2413S PLM V1.B/1351 lasted about 3 years, and I'm glad I found this thread. The failure was triggered by a power outage. I first checked the voltage across C13 and it was only 3.6v, so I knew I had a power supply problem. I then proceeded to remove all 5 suspect capacitors and order replacements from Mouser using the new values suggested. While waiting for the parts I drew up a partial schematic showing the power supply which may be of interest to some. After replacing the parts it powered up and worked. Add me to the list for repaired PLM. I also measured the old and new capacitance & ESR values for comparison. See the attachment (2413S Cap Values.pdf) for that information. 2413S Cap Values.pdf Notice that C3, C7, and C13 are all high ESR values. C7 was so high I could not measure it. In the new column I chose C7 & C13 caps that were specified as low ESR, ideal for filtering a high frequency switching supply. I have also attached a file with the part numbers I ordered, ( cap_order.pdf) and the power supply schematic(2413X schematic_rev1.1.pdf) Cap_Order.pdf For reference the voltages I measured across the new capacitors are as follows: C3 167VDC C7 21.1VDC C13 21.1VDC C8 4.9VDC C11 4.4VDC Please use caution if making these measurements, especially C3 and C11 which are attached directly to AC line voltage. I use an AC line isolation transformer when working on line connected devices such as this. Be Safe! Thank you to all the others that have contributed to this post. 2413X_ schematic_rev1.1.pdf 3
Brian H Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 (edited) Thank you for the power supply portion schematic for the 2413X series PLM base board. R10 and C11 are part of a power line derived power supply. Running the Zero Crossing detector circuit. Since you had the signal pin outs for the LNK345GN in the schematic. You probably the data sheet for the IC and know the running frequency of the supply is 200kHz. C7 being the input for the DC filter. It is subject to stresses and I am not surprised your C7 ESR reading was off the chart. Edited January 20, 2017 by Brian H
Morris Hansen Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 While I threw away my first failed PLM, after reading through the success everyone is having I wanted to see if I could repair my IOlinc. After being in a box for a couple years, I plugged it in and it worked for maybe an hour. I opened it up and 4 of the caps were the same as the PLM so I figured it was worth a try to replace. Ordered everything, replaced the caps and the IOlinc is still working after 3 days. Add one repaired IOlinc to the list.
tomd Posted January 21, 2017 Posted January 21, 2017 Replaced caps in an EZIO40 4 relay module. Did the trick. Thanks for the info.
jtara92101 Posted January 21, 2017 Posted January 21, 2017 Oh. The LED is supposed to be green? Doh! I just looked at mine. It wasn't lit. Unplugged it and plugged it back in. Now green. I guess this is a sign that it is failing/failed.
Balok Posted January 21, 2017 Posted January 21, 2017 (edited) Oh. The LED is supposed to be green? Doh! I just looked at mine. It wasn't lit. Unplugged it and plugged it back in. Now green. I guess this is a sign that it is failing/failed. This was one of the symptoms I saw when mine quit. The LED would take a long time to light, or wouldn't light at all. Also seen: intermittent communication: the ISY was able to read the address and thought it was connected, but it could not retrieve status information. Interestingly, this did not generate errors; I guess there is limited error handling in the protocol (when I disconnected the PLM, the ISY detected that reliably). When I installed my new PLM, I had to restore from a backup (which I'd made when signs of trouble appeared) before the File -> Restore Modem command would work. There were some reported comm errors, but the setup is working as expected. Weird. Edited January 21, 2017 by Balok
Pat525 Posted January 22, 2017 Posted January 22, 2017 I'm so happy I found this thread and thanks so much for all the posts and help here. My 2413S V1.0 had been running happily for a long time - years more than the typical two. A couple of weeks ago I woke up and none of my lights were working. It only took a few minutes to discover that my PLM was dead. Dang! Well I can't do without it so I ordered a new one. Luckily I had a second one operating an EZIO8SA as a door open sensor out in the garage, so I brought that one in to keep my ISY running until the new unit arrived. Next I opened up the failed unit for a visual inspection but there was nothing obvious wrong. Then I started hunting for help and soon found this thread with numerous people who seemed to know what they were talking about. I quickly followed the advice offered and ordered my caps from Mouser. The new unit (version 2.3) arrived a few days ago and it worked fine. Today the new caps arrived and I quickly put them in my failed unit which then came back to life, so I'm running that again with the new unit tucked away as a spare. I also have a couple more sets of caps waiting for the garage unit to fail. Maybe if I come up with a burst of energy, I'll recap that unit instead of waiting for it to fail -- or maybe not. Anyway, thank you, thank you, thank you for all the great advice and comments here. It worked for me, just as you said it would. One unit failed and repaired, one waiting to fail and a new one as a backup.
jtara92101 Posted February 13, 2017 Posted February 13, 2017 (edited) My PLM (2513S, V1.B 1317) finally gave up the ghost. In retrospect, it has probably progressively failed over a period of time, as I'd been having difficulty communicating with devices and vice-versa for some time. A couple weeks ago, I noticed there was no green light on the PLM. Unplugged it, plugged it back in, and it lit. Now it's gone out again, and does not come back after re-plugging. I'm either going to order caps or go get them from Fry's. (Anybody successfully got all you needed from Fry's?) But I think it would be good to have a backup. I see the cheapest places right now seems to be Home Depot - $68.30 with California tax. Not in stock at store, but can have shipped for free or send to store for pickup. Anyone have experience buying Insteon products from Home Depot? If so, were they fresh versions? Is there a current writeup on PLM repair advice (website, PDF, Wiki, etc. etc.), without having to read back through the entire post? Edited February 13, 2017 by jtara92101
Brian H Posted February 13, 2017 Posted February 13, 2017 (edited) You may want to look at reply #185 of this thread. Has a nice pdf file on repairing it. No part Numbers in it as it was a forum member making up repair kits. Teken also posted a nice photo in reply #151 Edited February 13, 2017 by Brian H
apostolakisl Posted February 14, 2017 Posted February 14, 2017 My PLM (2513S, V1.B 1317) finally gave up the ghost. In retrospect, it has probably progressively failed over a period of time, as I'd been having difficulty communicating with devices and vice-versa for some time. A couple weeks ago, I noticed there was no green light on the PLM. Unplugged it, plugged it back in, and it lit. Now it's gone out again, and does not come back after re-plugging. I'm either going to order caps or go get them from Fry's. (Anybody successfully got all you needed from Fry's?) But I think it would be good to have a backup. I see the cheapest places right now seems to be Home Depot - $68.30 with California tax. Not in stock at store, but can have shipped for free or send to store for pickup. Anyone have experience buying Insteon products from Home Depot? If so, were they fresh versions? Is there a current writeup on PLM repair advice (website, PDF, Wiki, etc. etc.), without having to read back through the entire post? You can search for my name. I listed current part numbers on a repair I did maybe 6 months ago. You need mid-level soldering skills to do this. The soldering is not micro stuff.
Breezyken Posted February 14, 2017 Posted February 14, 2017 See post # 282 for a current list of available parts from Mouser that I used to repair my 2513S last month and additional information on the device. I'm about to replace the caps in my 2672 -222 LED bulb which has a similar failure mode. There is another thread addressing the repair of this device. I'll post my results there.
apostolakisl Posted February 14, 2017 Posted February 14, 2017 It seems that two of the original capacitors are no longer available so I made some substitutions. USV1C100MFD instead of UTS1C100MDD and UPW2G100MHD1TO instead of ESX106M400AH4AA Are these good substitutions? Oh yeah, another PLM dead. This time 2 years and 2 months. This is what I used in May, nearly a year ago. It is still working.
jtara92101 Posted February 15, 2017 Posted February 15, 2017 (edited) The ESX106M400AH4AA is now in-stock at Mouser. The UTS1C100MDD shows as "obsolete" and none in stock. The UTS Nichicon line was discontinued, and recommended replacement is UTT Looks like equivalent is UTT1C100MDD1TP. Similar specs to UMW but higher ripple current 46ma vs 29ma, plus it's the recommended replacement. Both UTS and USV are rated 5000 hours. I'm going to try to fix my dead Access Point and a dead LampLinc2457D2 while I am at it. The LampLinc seems to have only one cap, 6.8uF/250V. I'm going to use the same 10uF/400V recommended for the PLM. The AP has 1000uF/25V and 470uF/50V. I bumped up the voltage rating to 35V and 63V in similar models. Edited February 15, 2017 by jtara92101
Brian H Posted February 15, 2017 Posted February 15, 2017 (edited) Your AP must be a hardware V1. That version did have a power transformer and those capacitors. The main board is the same one as in the 2412S/U PLM, 2414S/U PLC. Different firmware and daughter boards. The schematic for that version main board is in the PLM Developers Guide. Link in your other thread. If I was going to change the two main capacitors in the V1 AP. I would also change the 100uf/6.3V C5 in the Zero Crossing Detector circuit. The 2457D2 and 2457D2A internal photos in the FCC Database. Show more power supply capacitors than the one that looks like a through hole type. They show some surface mounted electrolytic capacitors {maybe Tantalum} on both sides of the PCB. https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/reports/GenericSearch.cfm Grantee: SBP Product Code: 2457D2A older ones 2457D2. In the Details Tab. Internal and external photos. Edited February 15, 2017 by Brian H
JackL Posted February 19, 2017 Posted February 19, 2017 Well my three year old 2413s V1.B finally got me in this thread. Had to unplug it last week and do a restore PLM and it came back working properly for a day or so. Found it today with the LED off and nothing working. Fortunately I had a v2.1 I bought about a year ago when power line noise problems tricked me into thinking my PLM was failing so round one of the home automation repair was very smooth and easy thanks to this forum. We will see if this awesome thread gets my old PLM back up and running just as easily. Think I'll buy another spare to keep around too...just in case. Such an important piece of our system. I would pay $300 for a super high quality PLM I didn't ever have to worry about failing like this. Thanks to everyone that made this repair thread possible!
Balok Posted February 19, 2017 Posted February 19, 2017 I would pay $300 for a super high quality PLM I didn't ever have to worry about failing like this. It shouldn't even cost that much. The caps aren't that much more expensive. They ought to be able to boost the reliability significantly and still come in well under $200.
jtara92101 Posted February 19, 2017 Posted February 19, 2017 I'm a bit skeptical of some of the substitutions now. Some of those caps spec a lifetime of only 2000 hours. I did do a little research, and do realize that lifetimes are based on operation at limits - e.g. at max temperature and max voltage. And some of the substitutions have had the voltage spec bumped-up. Apparently, it is common that manufacturers really over-rate voltage ratings and then decrease lifetime. Maybe some more exotic capacitors, e.g. Polymer would be a better choice. I know a really good analog engineer I will ask him some questions! (But shouldn't Insteon have hired a really good analog engineer years ago?) I suppose offering a "high reliability" version would have a predictable backlash... In any case, the replacements suggested here go for about $5 total, in onesies. If really "exotic" capacitors might cost $15 in quantity, maybe they would have to increase the price to $100. But can't imagine that reliable replacements would cost $15.
Balok Posted February 19, 2017 Posted February 19, 2017 I assumed they'd make other changes than just the caps to make a very high reliability unit. If they didn't get the power supply right, there's probably other things they didn't get right as well. So I just sort assumed somewhere around 150% of the current price.
classicmac Posted February 20, 2017 Posted February 20, 2017 Thanks for the help everyone I replaced the capacitors in my 2413 and it has been running great for the past few weeks. I purchased some extras if anyone needs a set. I'll send a set for $5.50 shipped if you want me to drop them in a standard envelope USPS First Class Mail. Otherwise $5 + actual shipping charges. Here is what you will get: Qty Digi-Key Part Number Description 3 493-10390-1-ND 10uf 16v replaces 10uf 16v 2 565-1598-ND 10uf 50v replaces 10uf 35v 1 493-3276-ND 100uf 25v replaces 100uf 25v 1 399-6538-ND 10uf 400v replaces 6.8uf 250v Send me a PM if you are interested.
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