Motion sensor help, any examples out there?

[oberkc]

At the risk of repeating some of xathros explanation...

 

If the Switchlinc sent a different command for when the light is changed from it, vs the ISY or another controller, I think that would be an insane help.

 

Which is, as explained by xathros, what the CONTROL condition does.

 I don't see how you can program it that if the switch is pressed "off" to disable motion

 

Well, that is why we are all here...to help each other see things.

since how does the system know that an Off command to the light from the switch should behave differently than an Off command sent to it from the motion sensor

 

At the risk of repeating (think of it as emphasising): this is exacly how a CONTROL condition works.  CONTROL only triggers when a device, itself, initiates an action.  When the device state is changed indirectly, CONTROL conditions do not trigger.

 

Please note in my suggested status program, I used a lot of CONTROL conditions.  This was not an arbitrary choice, and should handle the concerns about which you speak.

Then there's the further issue of if the light is already on, don't start the motion sensor timer to turn it off, but writing "If motion sensor control is ON, and Kitchen light is OFF, turn on the kitchen light" doesn't work, since it only would the first time, but any future motion does nothing since the light is no longer off and meeting that criteria.

 

This could be true if one were using a STATUS condition, but not if using a CONTROL condition.

this works much better from the Hub, way faster trigger

 

I do not believe that this is the case, so long as you are willing to live with the limitations associated with a scene.  It is only because you are trying to add conditions to WHEN and IF and HOW BRIGHT that force one into a program and contribute to the delays.

 

Reading many of your responses, it seems to me that the struggles that you are having are due to an incomplete familiarization between STATUS and CONTROL conditions, and when programs are triggered.  I am happy to elaborate further if you are interested in trying to make the ISY work.

[stusviews]

Larry how do you though differentiate the switch controlling the light manually versus the motion sensor doing it?  I think my actual issue (I have a lot obviously ha) is that I'm honestly thinking of every remote insane scenario and then ruling out doing something one way.  Like for example, it just hit me, why can't I set up the motion sensors the way I want, but then tell the family if you want to disable them for 3 hours you press down twice, and enable them again you press up twice.  Like that's pretty straightforward.  I think the issue is that I keep picturing certain people like a friend visiting, and how they wouldn't know to press down twice to keep the light off etc, but then it's like why am I worrying about if someone who comes to my house once a year will be comfortable disabling the motion!

 

Worst case too I get a Keypadlinc for the Kitchen instead, with a huge button "DISABLE MOTION LIGHTS".

There will always be a "what if." Life is like that. A goal of HA is to simplify and automate repetitive tasks. But it doesn't always have to be via a program. Here's two examples that i use:

 

1. Single-gang box swapped out for a 2-gang. One side has a Switchlinc dimmer providing two presets, 50% and full on. The other side has a Lutron motion sensing dimmer set at 25%. Both devices are wired in parallel providing three levels of illumination, 25% when walking through at night, 50% for dining and 100% for cleaning.

 

2. Single-gang box with a SwitchLinc dimmer in the box and  Micro Dimmer in the ceiling box. Both are wired in parallel. An INSTEON Motion Sensor controls the Micro Dimmer, not the SwitchLinc.

 

In both cases, the motion sensor is bypassed when the SwitchLinc dimmer is on at any level greater than the Micro or Lutron dimmer.

 

In other situations, I do use programming as a response to a sensor. But, nearly all programs require fine tuning somewhere down the line. Keep in mind that although certain tasks can be fully automated, others require human intervention. The ISY is not AI.

 

if you haven't started programming, then do it to it!!!

[edokid]

Thanks everyone that's a big help and I think that's definitely where the issue was coming from.  I returned the ISY yesterday morning though, not because of the issues but because I don't really have a need for it at this time.  Everything I'm wanting to do is mostly simple things that the hub can handle, like open the closet door and turn on the light.  The motion sensors in the kitchen was more just doing it because I can, and because I bought an extra motion sensor, but I have no real value in that.  What I did want was motion sensors in the bathrooms, but I bought those $19.99 Lutron switches and they are fantastic!  Installed super easy and works insanely well, letting you pick 1 minute, 5, 15 or 30 minutes for timeout.  When you walk into the bathroom the lights immediately come on, and then you can press the switch on the wall to turn them off which disables the motion for 10-15 seconds giving you time to leave the room.  Obviously can't do schedules or advanced things but works for what I need, so planning on putting a bunch of these around the house.

 

I wish Insteon stuff was more like $20 for each item vs $50 or so, since it's not really expensive expensive, but I find it's at that price point where it doesn't make as much sense to do something unless you really need it.  Like with the Lutron, $20 and I can have a motion light in the hallway, but with Insteon it would be $40 or so for the sensor, then $50 for the Switchlinc, so $90 which isn't expensive at all, but it's more in the price range now where you should have a need for it vs nice to have.  Even with the closet doors, at Home Depot they have for $22 you screw it into the light socket, then the light screws into it, and it includes a door sensor, so when you open the closet door the light comes on.  

 

Insteon obviously has the benefit that the system is connected, and from your iPhone etc you can see all devices.  I just came to the realization that everything I'm trying to do doesn't really benefit from that, since being able to see if a closet door is closed, or control a closet light from my phone serves no purpose.  I think where the Insteon stuff will be fantastic for me is with the ability to make it look like I'm home, so having the outside lights on, inside etc.  I just kept finding myself always trying to find a use for my Insteon stuff, figuring out where to put it, then I'd install it somewhere and realize "wow I just paid $50 so that I can turn the garage light on and off remotely or from my phone, which I'd never do."  I think the exciting thing though is that nothing is a waste now, all the stuff I have I do have a use for, and it's not like in the future I can't get the ISY if I have a need for it so I think that's the best part of all of this.  I think what will also help is that once I have the ground work in place, it won't seem as expensive to add things like $90 here or there.

[oberkc]

It sounds like you are wise and practical.  I am with you regarding the price of devices.  I expect that smart devices will not last as long as the dumb ones, so there will be a noticable cost maintaining your system  as devices fail. 

 

Still, I enjoy conversations about this topic, and the general state of automation. Given the recent proliferation of protocols, and given things like the new apple "home kit", one capability I value highly (and suspect the marketplace will reward) is the ability to integrate different types of devices, beyond insteon.  I suspect prices will come down on these as competition heats up.  In fact, I was shopping recently and stumbled upon a random clearance table of stuff, and saw a couple of z-wave modules for about $20 each. 

 

Back to the ISY, as much as I have enjoyed this thing so far, I believe the potential is still relatively untapped.  The introduction of the z-wave module for the ISY and the initial inquiry into the home kit and insteon/microsoft partnership can potentially be the biggest benefit of having an ISY.  This could let you pick and choose from a wider assortment of devices (beyond insteon) and choose those that meet your needs for price and value.  Over time, it could be cheaper overall for those with an ISY than those without if one is a careful shopper.

[edokid]

Yes definitely that makes sense for sure.  I'm already thinking maybe I shouldn't have returned it lol, but Amazon does have next day shipping so I could potentially have it back in a day haha.

 

Everything is working great right now.... until I went to put a Lutron motion sensor switch on my second floor bathroom and realized that the switch is outside of the bathroom in the hall, so impossible to use the sensing switch on it so would have to be Insteon!  So will see, as the Lutron switches do work well but there's areas where Insteon would be better (also Insteon is silent, the Lutron's make a click when they come on).  Like I said I don't think it was the cost of it all per say (even though I think it's still pushing it), it was more that it was $2k all at once.  So instead of it being "Oh it's just $100 to have these outside lights come on at night, oh but wait, that's $2100 that I'm at now so damn", it's now more just "Oh it's just $100 to have these lights come on at night and brighten with motion then go dim again, giddy up!"

 

I think my second issue is that I made the mistake of buying TONS of stuff and then wanting (or expecting?) it all to work together immediately.  So I'd install the motion sensor and switch, try to make it work a few times in the ISY, have a couple problems so give up since I couldn't wait to install the Garage I/O Linc, only to have the same issue, like why does the off button not work, etc.  So I was trying to everything all at once, few mins on one, few on the other, give up etc.  Where as if I just work on ONE thing at a time it would be easier.  I just find motion drives me nuts since you're standing there waiting 1-2 mins constantly to test it.  The best is when you think you have it and then you walk in the room and they start flashing!  Or the other day when I was sure it was good, and I'm in the shower and all the lights go off.  Just stood there laughing for a good minute or two.

[stusviews]

Both of our bathrooms had switches on the outside wall. It was easy enough the add an old work box on the "correct" side of the wall. Some tips:

 

The existing switch box is attached on one side to a wall stud. There's usually more than a foot of empty space until the next stud. Install the old work box in the empty space offset (i.e., not back-to-back) from the original switch box.

[edokid]

Thanks Stu that's what I was thinking, but it's really no issue, was more just for those Lutron motion switches it wouldn't be possible, but I just put a Switchlinc there instead and then will use one of the motion sensors on the inside.

[edokid]

Rats just woke up and realized even Insteon would be a pain in this bathroom since company would probably hit the switch before walking in, so not sure how useful having motion in there would be and hate to move the switch just for that.  I guess I could just disable the switchlinc in the hall so that people are forced to walk into the bathroom or just not worry since 99% of the time it would be family going in there, so I just have to stop worrying about company lol.

[stusviews]

Actually, most people would probably walk into the bathroom and look for the switch there, first.

[larryllix]

I have a motion sensor switch (not Insteon) in my guest powder room. Most of my guests are surprised when the lights come on automatically but then turn it off when they leave. Now it doesn't work at all.

[stusviews]

Do you mean that it's defective or that it doesn't sense motion when someone turns it off?

[larryllix]

Do you mean that it's defective or that it doesn't sense motion when someone turns it off?

After they turn it off.

 

My kids previously told their friends "If you don't turn it on then don't turn it off". But now we go into our friends house and stand in the middle of the room thinking "How pathetic! The lights don't go on. What would I do if was carrying something with two hands?"

[stusviews]

I did have motion sensing switches that did that. For that very reason, I replaced them with Lutron devices that resume their motion sensing capabilities when manually turned off. Both a dimmer and relay are available.