Why do dual band devices "flutter" than lock?

[Kevin Connolly]

I've had a few dual band devices that the lights seem to flutter and than the device locks. Seemingly, this type of question would seem more appropriate for the Insteon forum, but since my ISY writes to and controls devices through programs, I thought I'd start questioning things from the ISY.

As background, the device that locked today was a KPL. On a level 3 check it consistently shows up as a one hop device (max hop=3, hops left=2).

So the question than is:Is there anything that I could check on the ISY, in it parameters,that someone has found through experience that I should either turn on or turn off?

[larryllix]

Do you factory reset every device before linking it into your system?

[Xathros]

Are these devices dimmers?  What kind of load do you have attached to these devices?

 

-Xathros

[Kevin Connolly]

Just lighting is attached...and none are dimmers.

Also, I'm running 4.0.5 firmware and 4.2.8 UI.

Is it appropriate/common practice to factory reset devices as you add them to your system?

[Brian H]

Some Insteon Modules have been shipped with test links and X10 Addresses in them from the factory.

Many of us automatically do a Factory Reset on all our modules as we installed them.

[Kevin Connolly]

Good tip!

Would the "test address" account for a device working for a while than fluttering and locking?

[Brian H]

No test addresses may cause unneeded message retries to modules not in the system.

Since it is a relay type KPL. Does it physically chatter or just the load itself flutters?

Enough power line noise could cause the load to flutter and confuse the controller in the KPL.

If it is a confused controller. If you do a power reset {not a factory reset} would unlock it.

Pulling out the Air Gap switch for ten seconds and gently pushing it back to its normal position would cycle the power. Pushing it all the way in does a Factory Reset, unless it has the new flow chart routines in it.

Poor connection on the Line,Load or Neutral lead may also cause things like fluttering loads.

[Kevin Connolly]

The KPL chattered (as in chattered and lights fluttered)than locked. I've had two other switchlincs do the same thing. I haven't had a reaccurance with the other two Switchlincs since factory resetting them. I guess its been a few weeks now. The KPL acted up today.

Although it could always be a possibility, I tried to make sure all connections were tight as I installed devices.

[stusviews]

A chattering relay is often the result of a poor connection to the line and/or neutral wire.

[Kevin Connolly]

Ok. So l'll factory reset all my devices that havent already been reset.

Other than a loose connection, could anything else cause the flutter lock symptoms. I want to use physically taking things apart as a last resort. Also, the Switchlincs I reset initially a few weeks ago haven't acted up since. One would think that a loose connection would make it fail regardless of a reset. I also checked the neutral bar. All connections are tight to both breakers and bar (I know they can have a tendency to loosen IP over time due to heat.)

[Kevin Connolly]

Let me clarify one thing. When I say the lights fluttered what I mean is on the device. NOT the load.

[stusviews]

It would be unusual for the relay to chatter without affecting the load. A loose neutral at the switch, but not to the load, could cause the switch LEDs to flicker..

[Kevin Connolly]

Thanks Stu.

If the neutral were loose though wouldn't resetting it than have zero effect? Ie. Wouldn't it still flutter?

Personally, I thought that a status on the KPL got misaligned with the ISY or something along those lines. When it occurred with the other two Switchlincs the only reason I noticed it was the misaligned status (ie. The button said it was off when it was on or vice versa). That what happened with the KPL today. One of its buttons "C" said a light was on when it was off. When I pushed the button it fluttered and the device locked. The KPLs on/off is the controlling device to an overhead light and even though it wouldn't let me control anything at the KPL I was able to turn the light on and off from a secondary Switchlinc.

[oberkc]

I know that some of my module LEDs "flutter" during insteon traffic.  I can't say that I have noticed any of my switch LEDs doing the same.  Furthermore,  I have not had one lock up as a result.  If a factory reset does not solve the problem, I would tend to guess hardware failure of some sort.

[Kevin Connolly]

So far, any affected device has been corrected by a hard factory reset. That said, I like to know the why's of things. I've had some good advice so far.

Check communications to the device by the event viewer at level 3,

Factory reset devices as you install them, and

Check to makes sure connections are tight.

Since the device(s) showed a misaligned status just prior to a flutter lock, is there anything else to check that could cause that?

[oberkc]

Poor communication can cause wrong status. 

[Kevin Connolly]

I think so too. That's why I started with the event viewer after the reset. The KPL looks like it is consistently a one hop device.

[Kevin Connolly]

Just to re-summarize the symptoms.

I notice a device that's showing the wrong status.

A button push makes the LEDS flutter and the device locks.

If the affected device is a primary device it is still accessible through secondary devices.

A hard reset (so far) seems to correct the issue. (Or at least I haven't had to reset a device twice, so far)

Communication in the event viewer indicates for most cases max hops=3 hops left=2. (I say most because there was a section for the KPL that said max hops=1 hops left=0)

The solutions thus far are: Factory reset all devices as you install them and make sure your connections are tight.

Where there any issues with 4.0.5 that could have caused such issues that may have been fixed in some iteration of the current RCs?

[LeeG]

There have been some 14 ISY images released since 4.0.5.   None should have fixed that as no command or command sequence should lock up a device when the paddle is pressed.   Sounds like a power issue rather than a command issue.

 

Max Hops=1 Hops Left=0 is an inbound message.  Those are expected and good values.

[Kevin Connolly]

Thanks Lee. I thought I'd ask since the ISY writes to the device. It wouldn't be an unheard of thing to have a device take a write incorrectly or to have a device get stuck in a routine. I had a iPhone get stuck in a routine it was trying to execute with an Exchange server. Happened out of the blue and after several months of use, but it drained the battery so quickly that you could watch the numbers tick down and it physically got hot. I did a little internet research, wiped and reinstalled the Exchange account, and never had the problem again.

But, on the other hand, if it's not possibly a write issue from the ISY, the comm values look good and consistent, and the wiring is tight than...?

As far as communications is concerned, there's a difference between a consistent signal and a strong signal. Any way to test the signal strength and/or use an external antenna on the ISY?

[Brian H]

Unless you are talking the optional Z-Wave card in an ISY994i. There is no RF processing in it.

There is an optional external antenna for the Z-Wave card.

 

The 2431S PLM is the Dual Band module used by the ISY994i controller.

 

I have seen no external antennas mentioned for the 2413S PLM.

 

We did verify the loads are incandescent or 120 volt Halogen bulbs and not a low voltage bulb with a driver or transformer?

[Kevin Connolly]

The loads are either Halogen or Florescent with a dimming ballast. Where I live the electric company has a tendency to throttle so a dimming ballast is a must.  

[Brian H]

The dimming Ballast maybe making power line noise and causing the KPL to act strange.

I have a few loads. That can make an ApplianceLinc pulse On and Off a few times when turned On.

[Kevin Connolly]

Are LEDs any better...line noisewise. I live in northern NJ and I don't think you can even buy a incandescent light bulb any more. 

[Teken]

Are LEDs any better...line noisewise. I live in northern NJ and I don't think you can even buy a incandescent light bulb any more. 

 

There is a link about which LED's have worked very well for members here in the forums. I personally have had great results with the Definity branded LED bulbs. No line noise, dims very low, no audible noise, unlike the Insteon Bulb Linc!