416to305 Posted November 13, 2014 Posted November 13, 2014 Just curious as I just noticed there's a Switchlinc model that is RF only for places without a neutral wire. It's $49.99 which is the same price as the normal Switchlinc. I know the 2477D is dual band, but if you don't connect the neutral, does it operate like one of the RF only ones? Or does it not work at all? Just wondering since they are the same price it seems like it would make sense to buy the 2477D one just in case things ever move around etc. (My basement doesn't have a neutral as my Dad finished it for me and had never heard of it).
LeeG Posted November 13, 2014 Posted November 13, 2014 The 2477D requires a Neutral. It will not function without it. The 2474D is a completely different design that takes power through the incandescent load which has the Neutral connection. The 2477D cannot be installed where only two wires and no Neutral exist at the switch.
stusviews Posted November 13, 2014 Posted November 13, 2014 Nope. The 2-wire dimmer functions by 'stealing' power from the load which is why the load should be incandescent. The 2477D does not have that capability.
larryllix Posted November 13, 2014 Posted November 13, 2014 Just curious as I just noticed there's a Switchlinc model that is RF only for places without a neutral wire. It's $49.99 which is the same price as the normal Switchlinc. I know the 2477D is dual band, but if you don't connect the neutral, does it operate like one of the RF only ones? Or does it not work at all? Just wondering since they are the same price it seems like it would make sense to buy the 2477D one just in case things ever move around etc. (My basement doesn't have a neutral as my Dad finished it for me and had never heard of it). All your devices require a neutral. The neutral wire is the white wire that electricity, passing through a load, returns to the electrical panel. Do you have an older house with knob and tube wiring? If so you may not have ground wires in most places but neutral is a basic requirement for electricity to flow.
416to305 Posted November 13, 2014 Author Posted November 13, 2014 Thanks everyone. No my house is maybe 8 years old so I have a neutral but the basement was unfinished, so my Dad finished it with me as he built their house 30 years ago or whatever and he's really handy etc. Except when I went down the other day and realized there's no neutral wire on any of the new outlets he did down there, and when I called him about it he said he's never heard of it lol. Whoops So I saw those ones that don't need a neutral and thought they would be good for the basement. When you say the load has to be incandescent, do you mean like incandescent old school style light bulbs? I only have LED bulbs in my house. Every normal bulb or compact fluorescent were all removed a couple years ago for LED. Not really a huge deal as we don't use the basement that often so not critical but just thought that might be an option for me.
larryllix Posted November 13, 2014 Posted November 13, 2014 (edited) ... When you say the load has to be incandescent, do you mean like incandescent old school style light bulbs? I only have LED bulbs in my house. Every normal bulb or compact fluorescent were all removed a couple years ago for LED. Not really a huge deal as we don't use the basement that often so not critical but just thought that might be an option for me. If you use two wire only devices the load has to be incandescent. These devices use the load as the return (neutral) wire for their small amount of running power. It's not enough to light an incandescent bulb but It usually causes CFLs and LEDs to flicker when turned off. LEDs and CFL bulbs chop up the AC waveform and would cause a two wire SwitchLinc to malfunction. The 2477D is NOT a two wire device, which means it has to have a neutral connected to it. This circumvents these problems. An incandescent bulb is one with a filament in it that works by heating the filament to white hot. Halogen lamp bulbs are also incandescent. This problem exists with most motion sensors also. If you have a controller string of lights (more than one) you can use CFL or LEDs usually by using just one incandescent mixed in. The lack of neutral problem is typically created by electricians wiring the circuits to the light's octagon box first. Octagon boxes have a lot more volume inside them and can accommodate more wires (by code and actual practice) for all the connections involved with a continuing cable run. To accommodate the switch for the light they run a 14/2 cable to the switchbox location to go over to the switch and back with the switched power. There will be no neutral at the switchbox, in this scenario. Receptacles always have to have a neutral on one side. Edited November 13, 2014 by larryllix
stusviews Posted November 13, 2014 Posted November 13, 2014 For any switch box without a neutral you can simply change a couple of connections, install a SwitchLinc On/Off of dimmer, cap the load wire and install a Micro Module in the ceiling box, thus enabling control of any load. BTW, the On/Off module clicks, the dimmer is silent, so the dimmer is usually the device of choice.
DennisC Posted November 13, 2014 Posted November 13, 2014 Except when I went down the other day and realized there's no neutral wire on any of the new outlets he did down there, and when I called him about it he said he's never heard of it lol. Whoops So I saw those ones that don't need a neutral and thought they would be good for the basement. For safety let's make sure we are all talking about the same thing. An outlet must have a neutral to work properly. A switch wired via a switch leg may not have a neutral, however to meet today's NEC code requirement new installations should have a neutral. I mention this only to be sure you understand if you go to install a new device. Regards, Dennis
416to305 Posted November 14, 2014 Author Posted November 14, 2014 Yeah I'm not sure the outlet situation as I don't have anything going there, but just the 2 switches down there don't have a neutral.
stusviews Posted November 14, 2014 Posted November 14, 2014 Not having a neutral in a switch box is not in any way unsafe. Not having a ground, either through metallic cabling/conduit or a ground wire is considered unsafe. Not having a neutral in a switch box is not an impediment to installing a device with full INSTEON capabilities, only an inconvenience.
416to305 Posted November 14, 2014 Author Posted November 14, 2014 Oh yeah it definitely is grounded and what not, I think it's more when he built their house back in like 85-86 or so it probably wasn't required back then as I know most places say "If your house is newer than 25 years old it should have a neutral" so makes sense.
416to305 Posted December 14, 2014 Author Posted December 14, 2014 Hey everyone, Just wanted to follow up to this as I wanted to double check one thing. As mentioned in my basement, none of the light switches have a neutral. It was wired 5 years ago but my Dad just never did it for some reason with a neutral. I have 3 switches in total, one goes to 2 ceiling lights which have 4 GU10 I think it is bulbs on it, a mix of hallogen and LED (change to LED once the hallogen dies), and then the other 2 switches connect to 3 potlights each, also GU10 bulbs I believe all LED. So when you say it has to control an incandescent light, does LED count or does it have to be hallogen/incandescent? Thanks!
Teken Posted December 14, 2014 Posted December 14, 2014 No, incandescent only. Your results will very with the halogen. Encrypted By: Phoenix Security Solutions
416to305 Posted December 14, 2014 Author Posted December 14, 2014 (edited) I guess I'm just confused still because a light isn't incandescent or not, is it not the bulb? I mean a normal screw light bulb could be incandescent, halogen, LED etc, but Larry above said halogen are incandescent, so what kind of issues might I have? If it doesn't work with LED then it's not a huge issue if halogen works. I'd rather not take the chance though. Is it possible to wire in a neutral? The one main switch for the basement is totally visible, as the back of it is in the laundry room with the circuit breaker which isn't finished. Just not clear on where the neutral comes from, as even when I spoke to my Dad he said electrical cable comes with 3 wires, black, white, and a ground and that he's never seen one that has a 3rd wire being the neutral. Would I have any ability to add a neutral or would there be an easier way to make it all work? Or is doing the wiring mentioned above with the micro module in the ceiling the best option? Not really clear as when I check this micro module here (assuming this is the one), it says neutral wire is required. https://www.aartech.ca/product/00/2442-222/INSTEON-Micro-Dimmer-ModuleSo you're saying if there's no neutral in the switch, it would be in the actual ceiling light and I'd install this there? Would that not mean though that all light switches would physically need to stay in the ON position similar to if using an LED Insteon bulb? Not sure how I'd do that with the pot lights, basically what I just want to control is the following: 1) The main switch is connected to 2 ceiling lights, they are just normal ceiling lights (2 ceiling boxes of course) with a normal light on it which has 4 GU10 LED or Hallogen bulbs on them. This isn't it, but it's basically 2 on the ceiling like this Sorry the photo is so big, just found that online but yeah basically 2 of these connected to 1 switch I want to control. 2) There's 2 other switches, each connected to 3 in ceiling pot lights (6 lights in total 3 per switch). For these there'd be no way to install the micro module in the ceiling since, well it's 3 lights so not sure how a ceiling box works for those. Maybe I'll get lucky and a neutral will be in those switches but it is doubtful. The number 1 above is the main one I want to control though since that switch is on the complete opposite end of the room, so if you were watching TV, to turn it off you have to get up and walk 50 feet or so to get to it. Thanks! Edited December 14, 2014 by 416to305
Teken Posted December 14, 2014 Posted December 14, 2014 A switch does not require a neutral a switch simply cuts the power from the supply on / off. A neutral is required for 99% of the Insteon devices because it draws its very small power from this circuit. The two wire Insteon device receives its power from the load. Lets keep this simple if you remove the switch describe the wiring color in the box. Note, if a black wire is marked with tape to (identify) it has been switched to serve another purpose. ie. Neutral / Traveler
builderb Posted December 14, 2014 Posted December 14, 2014 (edited) So essentially the two-wire switch leaks just enough power through the circuit to power itself, but not to light an incandescent bulb? Interesting. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Edited December 14, 2014 by builderb
LeeG Posted December 14, 2014 Posted December 14, 2014 (edited) "So essentially the two-wire switch leaks just enough power through the circuit to power itself, but not to light an incandescent bulb?" Yes. It operates on RF only so very little power is required. Edited December 14, 2014 by LeeG
Techman Posted December 14, 2014 Posted December 14, 2014 416to305, Both incandescent and halogen bulbs are based on the concept of two parallel metal wires transmitting an electrical current to a tungsten filament that connects them, heating the filament to a point where its heat is reflected as light. The major difference between an incandescent bulb and a halogen bulb is the gases that each produces within its glass bulb. The purpose of gas production is the same in that it is meant to slow evaporation of the filament and keep it from rusting. Both incandescent and halogen bulbs go dark when the filament wears out and breaks. Incandescent bulbs fill with a mixture of 93 percent argon and seven percent nitrogen, both of which are inert gases. A halogen bulb adds a halogen gas, such as iodine or bromine, creating a chemical reaction that regenerates evaporated tungsten and puts it back on the filament, helping to extend the filament’s life and therefore the life of the light bulb. In theory both should work with the two wire RF only switch, however an led light does not supply enough voltage to the switch to power it.
416to305 Posted December 14, 2014 Author Posted December 14, 2014 Great thanks, I'll post what the switch looks like later when I get home. I've ruled out the 2 wire switch as all bulbs will be LED soon since the cost savings are too high to keep them as halogen.
stusviews Posted December 14, 2014 Posted December 14, 2014 When specifying wiring cable, the ground wire is not counted. That said, Romex is available as 2-wire (black, white), 3-wire (black, red, white) and 4-wire (black, red, blue, white).
Teken Posted December 14, 2014 Posted December 14, 2014 When specifying wiring cable, the ground wire is not counted. That said, Romex is available as 2-wire (black, white), 3-wire (black, red, white) and 4-wire (black, red, blue, white). Its safe to say he won't have any 3 / 4 wire in this basement install.
stusviews Posted December 15, 2014 Posted December 15, 2014 Just not clear on where the neutral comes from, as even when I spoke to my Dad he said electrical cable comes with 3 wires, black, white, and a ground and that he's never seen one that has a 3rd wire being the neutral. This is what I was responding to.
Teken Posted December 15, 2014 Posted December 15, 2014 (edited) This is what I was responding to.The black is the hot / line. The white is the neutral wire. This assumes it's NOT marked with tape to indicate an alternate use. Stu, I quoted you by accident! Encrypted By: Phoenix Security Solutions Edited December 15, 2014 by Teken
416to305 Posted December 15, 2014 Author Posted December 15, 2014 Okay so the main lights, #1 above the 2 ceiling lights on the one switch, I just checked and running into that wall box is one of those white shielded electrical cables, and inside is a white that connects to the switch, a black that connects to the switch, and the ground which connects to the wall box. There's just those 2 plus ground, no neutral. I can clearly see in it since the back is exposed since it's my laundry room behind it which isn't finished. So if there's a neutral it would be in the ceiling box which I'd have to check, but what I'm still not clear on is how that micro module or whatever it says would work if at all, since the switch is either on or off, so not sure how turning the lights on from my phone would work when the paddle switch is still in the off position. I'm wondering more if I can just wire in a neutral, since the laundry room behind the switch is where the circuit breaker is, so all electrical goes into here. The light in the laundry room is a pull cord kind but it was installed from the builder, so wondering if there would be a neutral in there. I do see a bunch of wires in a marette that don't go to the light, but not entirely sure as I was the one that changed it from a pull cord to a wall switch and had to wire it. Maybe I'll take pictures of it or write out what comes and goes from it to see if one might be a neutral, as if it is, the switch I need a neutral in is only maybe 7 feet away.
Teken Posted December 15, 2014 Posted December 15, 2014 The white wire is the neutral. Encrypted By: Phoenix Security Solutions
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