GURU Wanted - Minor Road BUMP

[richardalan1975]

I am looking for a GURU that would help bring to life automation in our home. Nothing complicated just a ear with some knowledge with whom I will happily compensate. I bought a few things to test the waters. 

 

I have an Universal Devices ISY994i/IR PRO

Insteon 2413S PowerLinc Modem INSTEON Dual-Band Serial Interface, White 

Insteon Model # 2466DW

Insteon Model # 2466SW

Insteon 2413S PowerLinc Modem INSTEON Dual-Band Serial Interface, White 

OutletLinc Relay - INSTEON Remote Control On/Off Outlet (Non-Dimming), White 

 

 

At the moment I log into the ISY admin and the three Insteon modules I have programmed seemed to be responding normally.  These three are usually hit or miss and kick back random errors. I had a heck of a time adding them. Errors include;

-Cannot communicate with the device

-Cannot determine link table address

Other times it will time out initializing system 

 

 I still have 2 locations that will simply not sync up. On a RARE occasion the admin control will see it but never long enough to add often resulting in one of the above errors,

 

On another note I often load into the admin control panel to "ERROR Discovering Notes, Retry!"

 

Everything I have read points to me needing a repeater of sorts to improve signal quality within the power lines. Please guide me.

 

Finally I am reading about two great iPhone apps buts most of what I see is from 2012.  Ekeypad and Mobilinc, what about in 2014 what stands the tallest? 

 

[LeeG]

The Insteon network is not coupled.   Neither the OutletLinc nor ToggleLincs are Dual Band.  The PLM is Dual Band so at least one Range Extender plugged into the other 120 leg from the PLM is required to get Insteon messages on both 120v legs.  Also be sure PLM is NOT plugged into a noise/surge suppressing power strip and no unfiltered power strip is near PLM.

[richardalan1975]

Help me understand please what the "other end of the 120 leg means". Should I add TWO of these devices http://www.insteon.com/2992-222-range-extender.html ?

 

Is the "ERROR Discovering Notes, Retry!" related going to be resolved by improving comunication?

 

What about an APP ?

[richardalan1975]

Why use the range extended and not the 2443 Access Point INSTEON Wireless Phase Coupler?  Please help me understand the differences and the best product for my application.

 

How crazy i am to think I can use a motion sensor to trigger an event like flashing of some wired in lights ? Or eventually I want to wire in a door bell module that would flash the lights in X rooms when triggered.  Too CRAZY to wish for this?

[larryllix]

Just plug a dual-band module into the other phase of your electric service that your PLM isn't plugged into. Hopefully both of these devices can be located close to your electrical panel for radial spread to all circuits.

 

AP and Extenders do the same thing as any dual-band Insteon device. They may do it with a stronger signal but I, personally, have never needed one. I leave a spare On/Off module plugged into a circuit running off the phase opposite to where my PLM is plugged into. Check your electrical panel.  One  leg  or phase will have all even numbered breakers and the other leg or phase will have all odd numbered breakers.

 

Read the link you provided. It describes the two phases problem quite well with illustrations

 

In my case my other phase may be generated by an inverter and may not be connected to my main panel at all. The RF transmission of the PLM talks to it (On/Off module) and the On/Off plug-in module converts the RF signals to powerline signals and spreads the good word on that phase.

 

The AP was created when Insteon did not have dual band capabilities as older modules and battery devices  don't.

[larryllix]

Why use the range extended and not the 2443 Access Point INSTEON Wireless Phase Coupler?  Please help me understand the differences and the best product for my application.

 

How crazy i am to think I can use a motion sensor to trigger an event like flashing of some wired in lights ? Or eventually I want to wire in a door bell module that would flash the lights in X rooms when triggered.  Too CRAZY to wish for this?

No! Not crazy at all.

 

I have my doorbell send me a text message and an email if nobody is home. My dryer rings my doorbell when it is finished.

 

Nothing is crazy with the ISY.

[LeeG]

The Access Point was replaced by the Range Extender.   Smarthome is only selling refurbished Access Points which I do not suggest to someone new.   Use the 4 tap Set button test described in the device user guide to verify Range Extender and PLM are plugged into opposite 120v legs and in RF range of each other.

 

I do not use an App so have no recommendation.

[larryllix]

....   Use the 4 tap Set button test described in the device user guide to verify Range Extender and PLM are plugged into opposite 120v legs and in RF range of each other.

...

Where does one find this 4 tap method I keep hearing about here? I have never come across this in any manual and I have read all the ones for my devices.

Thanks.

[MWareman]

The 4 tap function is described on page 4 and 5 of this manual:

 

http://www.insteon.com/pdf/2443.pdf

 

I believe that details are in most/all dual-band products manuals.

 

It also describes much about placement and phase coupling.

 

Michael.

[richardalan1975]

Thank you all, I have some more reading todo when I get back to the office I appreciate the links. I went ahead and purchased 2 range extenders. 

[larryllix]

The 4 tap function is described on page 4 and 5 of this manual:

 

http://www.insteon.com/pdf/2443.pdf

 

I believe that details are in most/all dual-band products manuals.

 

It also describes much about placement and phase coupling.

 

Michael.

Thanks!

 

There is no mention of this in the SwitchLinc Dimmer, ApplianceLinc, LampLinc, SynchroLinc, OnOff Module, or IOLinc manuals that I have downloaded in the last few months.

There is mention of the phases in the IOLinc module Table of Contents but the reference is incomplete due to the content missing on the pages.

[Xathros]

Thanks!

 

There is no mention of this in the SwitchLinc Dimmer, ApplianceLinc, LampLinc, SynchroLinc, OnOff Module, or IOLinc manuals that I have downloaded in the last few months.

There is mention of the phases in the IOLinc module Table of Contents but the reference is incomplete due to the content missing on the pages.

The beacon (4 tap test) only applies to dual band devices / access points / range extenders.  Single band (power line only or RF only) are incapable of bridging the power line legs via RF.  You will find no mention of the beacon test in any single band device manual.

 

-Xathros

[larryllix]

The beacon (4 tap test) only applies to dual band devices / access points / range extenders.  Single band (power line only or RF only) are incapable of bridging the power line legs via RF.  You will find no mention of the beacon test in any single band device manual.

 

-Xathros

Very strange. None of the manuals I have  describe this test despite being dual band devices.

 

However,

My LampLinc 2457D2 R1.9 unit, beside me, is marked dual-band  but the 2457D2 manual mentions nothing about what the "RF Beacon" test means except that "RF Beacon" is found as a mode  in on the fancy flow / testing chart as a state. The four tap  test would not function that way for these 2457D2 devices, according to the docs.

 

This is the same unit, I discussed before,  does not support the third vertical leg of the chart... the factory reset modes. I seem to have some form of half-way hybrid unit that only supports the first two legs of the flow chart. However, the unit does perform the "RF Beacon" test with the old four tap initiation method and the old factory reset mode.

 

Boy! Leave it to Insteon to make a huge mess of their documentation!  No wonder there is confusion!

[Xathros]

We will likely need to stop referring to the beacon test as the 4 tap test as Insteon progresses into the new flow chart (I forget their name for it) method of configuring devices.  Also, do you have the full manual for your dual band devices or the "Quick Start Guide" as the beacon test is usually not covered in the abbreviated quick start guides.

 

-Xathros

[larryllix]

.... Also, do you have the full manual for your dual band devices or the "Quick Start Guide" as the beacon test is usually not covered in the abbreviated quick start guides.

 

-Xathros

I have the full LampLinc manual. 33 pages.

 I did find this description:

   "RF Beacon     Places the device in a mode that broadcasts a signal over INSTEON RF. Any devices beeping or displaying a blinking LED are within range of the module’s RF signal."

 

http://www.insteon.com/pdf/2457D2.pdf

 

You are correct about the "four tap test" terminology usage, although it is descriptive. the only way I knew to do it was from posts here. As I posted I have never run into this in a manual before. Mind you the "RF Beacon"  was not too descriptive. The word "test" was never used either.

 

Thank Gawd for the UDI forum and helpful people, like you. I don't have that many years left to spend them all trying to get to second base.

[Xathros]

For what it's worth, the only manual I remember seeing the full description in was the manuals for my access points.

 

-Xathros

[larryllix]

For what it's worth, the only manual I remember seeing the full description in was the manuals for my access points.

 

-Xathros

I have successfully avoided extra parts for the Insteon system so far so I would have never came across that.

 

I have been hearing about this "four tap" test for months now and after researching doc unsuccessfully was going to ask about it one day. This was the day thinking it may help the poor noobie too.

 

"Everybody knew about except me!" 

 

There seems t be a lot of that with Insteon....assuming you have all the parts and pieces so we don't have to explain that part 'cause we mentioned it in 1986. Software writers are not tech manual writers and if it is going to be manual we will find a way to automate it anyway.

[richardalan1975]

I am back and wanted to updated and hopefully get some additional advice. I have deployed 2 range extenders and relocated the PLM / ISY device to another area. Out of the 5 Insteon modules I have 4 of them that seem to function pretty well.   I have 1 device that I just can not communicate with. I have tried numerous locations relocating the range extenders. What is the next step everyone would take on this device? searched and there is no AC outlet on this circuit, I was going to have the electrician add one and buy another range extender. Thoughts ?  The switch not being detected is tied or runs along another line that is for some fluorescent overhead lights.

 

Does the range extender amplify the signal in the outlet AND also communicate via RF with other range extenders?

What about an APP, I am not reading there is one that wants to charge a monthly fee.

Can I add more than 2 range extenders?

How can I get the ISY and PLM back into the server closest. The last time I had it in there devices were barely responding. EDIT: I was thinking putting back in the closet and 8 feet away in the outlet that I am having the most success with adding an extender.  I just do not think I know enough about how the devices communicate.

[Teken]

The first thing you need to do is confirm proper coupling / bridging via the 4 tap beacon test outlined by the full users manual.

 

Once confirmed you can place any other AP / range extender where ever you wish. The AP does in fact repeat and regenerate the Insteon signal.

 

Your next step is to isolate and determine all noise makers / signal suckers in the areas that have bad COM's.

 

The easiest thing to do is to unplug all the devices and see. While all devices are unplugged monitor your Insteon network.

 

Add one device back in and see if the COM's are solid or not.

 

If solid keep adding one at a time while testing. If not solid filter the offending device or circuit load.

 

 

 

 

Encrypted By: Phoenix Security Solutions

[richardalan1975]

I am getting frustrated, I have tried so many different things and communication fails when I query certain device and one device still will not setup.

 

I typed the above early this morning. I pulled myself away ran a few miles in the sleet, smoked a J and I am back at it again. 

 

I now have 4 range extenders and the PLM and ISY are located in the closet w/ the rest of my world. With everything turned off in the house I was even able to add the one switch that would never respond. All devices respond pretty good at this point. I skipped over the comment above about unplugging everything and slowly adding back thinking we don't have anything to unplug. I gave near everything we own to charity when we moved into the new home. I applied that logic to switches on the walls and presto I am able to isolate a few things interfering with the communication.

 

In the case of the Family Room Outlet, if I turn an overhead ceiling fan light on it stops responding. The ceiling fan has 4 CFL bulbs in it

In the case of the Master Bedroom Lights if I turn the bedroom closet light on it does not respond. 2 fixtures and 4 CFL bulbs in it.

In the case of the Loft Lights if I turn on the lighting above the kitchen island (same circuit) they stop responding. 3 fixtures and 3 CFL bulbs here

   With the same Loft Lights if I turn on the lighting in laundry (same circuit) they respond slow occasionally timing out. 1 fixture 2 LED bulbs.

 

I am about to replace a number of CFL bulbs w./ LED's I am really hoping this improves performance.  Think it will work?  If it doesn't work what are my options?

 

It should be noted I did establish the link between 2 range extenders on opposite phases.  Moved up on the breaker box with on opposite phases for the other two range extenders. 

 

Still no suggestions on an APP ?

[Teken]

I am getting frustrated, I have tried so many different things and communication fails when I query certain device and one device still will not setup.

 

I typed the above early this morning. I pulled myself away ran a few miles in the sleet, smoked a J and I am back at it again. 

 

I now have 4 range extenders and the PLM and ISY are located in the closet w/ the rest of my world. With everything turned off in the house I was even able to add the one switch that would never respond. All devices respond pretty good at this point. I skipped over the comment above about unplugging everything and slowly adding back thinking we don't have anything to unplug. I gave near everything we own to charity when we moved into the new home. I applied that logic to switches on the walls and presto I am able to isolate a few things interfering with the communication.

 

In the case of the Family Room Outlet, if I turn an overhead ceiling fan light on it stops responding. The ceiling fan has 4 CFL bulbs in it

In the case of the Master Bedroom Lights if I turn the bedroom closet light on it does not respond. 2 fixtures and 4 CFL bulbs in it.

In the case of the Loft Lights if I turn on the lighting above the kitchen island (same circuit) they stop responding. 3 fixtures and 3 CFL bulbs here

   With the same Loft Lights if I turn on the lighting in laundry (same circuit) they respond slow occasionally timing out. 1 fixture 2 LED bulbs.

 

I am about to replace a number of CFL bulbs w./ LED's I am really hoping this improves performance.  Think it will work?  If it doesn't work what are my options?

 

It should be noted I did establish the link between 2 range extenders on opposite phases.  Moved up on the breaker box with on opposite phases for the other two range extenders. 

 

Still no suggestions on an APP ?

 

I think you pretty much isolated the major offenders that are either sucking or causing noise on the power line. Before you go and spend a ton of money on LED bulbs please do review this site and that of the SH site for LED lights that have proven to work and not hinder the Insteon COM's.

 

Simply replacing one area will tell you if the bulbs are fine or not. If they prove to work in (one area) move the exact same LED bulbs to another offender area.

 

If the bulbs work fine and COM's are solid try it in the remaining areas.

 

The reason you're doing this (silly) task is to confirm, verify, and know for a fact the bulbs is the cause & solution. If the bulbs works in 2 of the three areas but the third does not.

 

You need to look at the fixture and really narrow down what is on that circuit etc. Please do report back your success / failures and I am sure we can get you up and running.

 

Otherwise you and I will be smoking a big phatty for awhile till its solved!   

[richardalan1975]

I have made some real progress with nearly every light turned on the in house I have everything responding. Occasionally there are a 2 that take an extra second in the query. I have replaced some of the CFL bulbs w/ LED's.When I query the ISY it usually brings up the query system box for a second. Which I think tells me there is still room for improvement. I'm going to have to sell a kidney to buy the next batch of bulbs. 

 

What are my options if I still have noise or com issues. Are there filters of sorts that can be be placed within the lines? Maybe if I replaced a problematic switch with an insteon switch it would eliminate the noise in the line?

 

I bought OSRAM Ultra LED bulbs.

 

Not exactly sure what the noise is but I believe it exist, when I pass close to like a 20 FT fluro its picked up by my aids. I always listen closely hoping for ALIEN communication.  

 

I'm going to order a few additional switches, modules and keep experimenting. I will report back again shortly with an update.  Thanks for your help.

 

Richard

[Teken]

I have made some real progress with nearly every light turned on the in house I have everything responding. Occasionally there are a 2 that take an extra second in the query. I have replaced some of the CFL bulbs w/ LED's.When I query the ISY it usually brings up the query system box for a second. Which I think tells me there is still room for improvement. I'm going to have to sell a kidney to buy the next batch of bulbs. 

 

What are my options if I still have noise or com issues. Are there filters of sorts that can be be placed within the lines? Maybe if I replaced a problematic switch with an insteon switch it would eliminate the noise in the line?

 

I bought OSRAM Ultra LED bulbs.

 

Not exactly sure what the noise is but I believe it exist, when I pass close to like a 20 FT fluro its picked up by my aids. I always listen closely hoping for ALIEN communication.  

 

I'm going to order a few additional switches, modules and keep experimenting. I will report back again shortly with an update.  Thanks for your help.

 

Richard

 

Hello Richard,

 

I believe you're headed on the right path on replacing the CFL bulbs. I had to chuckle about selling a kidney or two!   I believe a few of us have invested way more time, effort, and money to get this whole HA thing going. 

 

Rest assured, once the noise makers / signal suckers are found and isolated you will be in good shape. There are in fact inline filters that can be purchased. But, since you indicate the (probable) cause is the CFL light bulbs. Its just easier to replace them when finances allow.

 

If the primary areas are taken care of just leave the other rooms until you can replace them. Keep in mind even if you decided to go the route of inline filtering it does not guarantee that it will solve the issue. As some line noise is just too strong to be circumvented by a filter.

 

If you have flora lamps it can be from the ballasts and those can certainly be filtered out. If you hear any ALIENS, please pass along a message: Where is my ride? How come you're calling on so many people except me? 

[richardalan1975]

Thank you, do you have a recommendation for an inline filter?

 

What APP are you using  

[Teken]

Thank you, do you have a recommendation for an inline filter?

 

What APP are you using

 This is one of the filters for smaller loads: http://www.x10.com/xpnr-noise-reducer.html?___SID=UI will try to locate the larger ones for 10/20 amp loads.

 

I use the Mobilinc App on the iPhone which provides remote operations, geo fencing, voice activation, etc