Communication issue with the plm

[EricK]

Last week i had some problems where it seemed that isy programs did not trigger, which seems to have resolved. I have noticed the last few nights that a Kpl button (single band v.36) for our hall scene is not turning off when the scene is triggered by an isy program at 9pm. The hall lights do in fact turn off. The Kpl is in the hall but on a different circuit from a Kpl and switchlinc that are part of the three way set up for the hall lights. If I trigger the scene off manually the hallway Kpl button turns off. When I check comms between the Kpl and the plm I get 1 hop remaining. But occasionally 0 remaining. Two days ago our shades did not go down at sunset so I opened the isy admin console and the io linc for my dry contact interface showed cannot communicate. I queried the device and then it did.

So I did the 4 tap test which I have done many times. When I do it I usually do not have to walk far to find devices on the same and opposite legs. This time I walked the whole house. When I triggered the 4 tap test from the plm I noticed that some devices did not respond at all such as the new switchlincs and Kpl in the dining room and my daughter's room.

I have two panels and a sub panel. A generator feeds one panel and the sub. Aside: we had a power outage for almost an hour the other morning and my gear that was on generator seemed to work fine. I have a plethora of electronics in the house. I have a lot of db devices including 4 aps and several db plug ins. The plm is plugged into an outlet next to a ups on a filter linc.

How should I trouble shoot since this does not seem like normal behavior. Teken approach and turn everything off and turn things back on until I find the noise/ signal sucker problem. This will be a very time consuming and difficult task to accomplish. Swap the Kpl with bad comms to a db device. The plm is in the utility room almost directly below the Kpl. Disperse some of the lamp lincs that are coming from the 4 pack sale to increase my rf comms. Get a new plm.

Thanks, sorry for the long read.

Eric

[stusviews]

Troubleshooting is time consuming. Trial & error and shortcuts usually end up consuming twice the time. Or more. Are you feeling lucky

[EricK]

Stu, I think the actual line was "Do you feel lucky".

[Teken]

I am more concerned about how all the gear is now after this power outage event. Can you describe how this event took place and how long the house was on back up power?

 

I am first assuming the Insteon network was solid long before this electrical outage transpired. If so, and no new noise makers / signal suckers were added. Then, you're looking at a possible Insteon device fault and if so replacement could be in your future. If its not a Insteon device that has failed then it could be other electronics that have taken a hit and thus causing *new noise* on the power line.

 

In that case unplugging all the devices from the home and adding one item at a time is the most effective method. Yes, time consuming but rest assured proven to work in identifying the offender.

 

You can always quickly narrow down a subset of zones / areas by turning off the breaker(s). If COM's are better than you can at least unplug that area and move forward that way.

 

Turning off breakers / unplugging devices unfortunately does not confirm if a Insteon device has been damaged or impacted by an electrical surge / spike event.

 

Anytime I have done this during a launch (to commission a site) I have never had to come back to a install, ever.

[stusviews]

Let it be known, I use my own

[stusviews]

Stu, I think the actual line was "Do you feel lucky".

 

Let it be known, I use my own

 

Now I've said it twice. That's my vice.

[EricK]

I am more concerned about how all the gear is now after this power outage event. Can you describe how this event took place and how long the house was on back up power?

 

I am first assuming the Insteon network was solid long before this electrical outage transpired. If so, and no new noise makers / signal suckers were added. Then, you're looking at a possible Insteon device fault and if so replacement could be in your future. If its not a Insteon device that has failed then it could be other electronics that have taken a hit and thus causing *new noise* on the power line.

 

In that case unplugging all the devices from the home and adding one item at a time is the most effective method. Yes, time consuming but rest assured proven to work in identifying the offender.

 

You can always quickly narrow down a subset of zones / areas by turning off the breaker(s). If COM's are better than you can at least unplug that area and move forward that way.

 

Turning off breakers / unplugging devices unfortunately does not confirm if a Insteon device has been damaged or impacted by an electrical surge / spike event.

 

Anytime I have done this during a launch (to commission a site) I have never had to come back to a install, ever.

 

Teken,

Power was out for 45min, who knows why, but everything in the house seems to be working fine.  Remember I was the one who wrote that since I dropped some cash on it that the power was guaranteed to stay on.  I actually think my comm problems started before this.  I had recently placed a db switchlink in my daughter's room for her ceiling fan with a timer program to turn the fan scene on at 8pm.  My wife usually puts her to sleep and I put my son to sleep.  Anyway, I did not realize that the fan was not turning on by the program, my wife was turning it on manually.  This was more than a week ago. 

After working 11 straight days I have tomorrow off and will try to turn off what I can and trouble shoot.   I do have a lot of CFLs in the house and will make sure all of the lights are off.  Probably should have picked up a couple more filter lincs with the sale.  There is also a wired in X10 coupler off my sub panel, which I do not really need, although I am not sure this is working.  I will try to remove that as well. 

Eric

Let it be known, I use my own

Stu,  I must apologize.  The line is "Do I feel lucky".  Not good to misquote Dirty Harry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7Nci-GVuHE

 

[Teken]

As Stu mentioned before leaving something off does not negate that device from impacting the power line. The only sure method is to unplug / unscrew those light bulbs.

 

Painful, and no easy task when the bulbs are 12-25 feet in the air this I know first hand! When you're off and the house is asleep this will be much easier to do anyways.

 

It doesn't lesson the pain in doing this silly task but its the only method to truly know where you stand. What is the transfer time from power out to power on from the back up generator?

 

Also when the power was off did you find the Insteon equipment played well with this generator?

[EricK]

The x10 phase coupler is by x10 pro. The prior owner had more than 50 x10 switches and keypads. It is wired into the sub panel so I pulled the cover on the sub and found the breakers for it. I was thinking of installing an outlet or two in its place. I could put in two, one on each phase. This is in the utility room, Any thoughts on this. I think the coupler has to go. There is only one x10 device in the basement that I control with a program, but if that no longer works I don't mind.

Teken, the 10-12 foot high bulbs are no problem. It's the 20+ ones that are. When we were on generator for 45 minutes or so, the longest yet, it was still early in the morning. I walked the house and did not see any unusual flashing. Since it was early I did not turn on any light. The landscape lights did come on, controlled by an appliancelinc. Kind of obnoxious that the neighbors houses were dark and my landscape lights were on. Not as obnoxious as the neighbors behind us who have a smaller 3600rpm generator that definitely needs a tune up.

Eric

 

Edit: the x10 repeater has a 3 wire cable, black, red, white. Black on the A, red on the B. Since there is only one neutral can I add two outlets, one for each phase and share the neutral. I learned on the smarthome forum, from stu, not to share a neutral.

Eric

[EricK]

I unplugged and turned off just about everything in the house.  Turned off the thermostats, recirc pump, X10 coupler, baby monitors.  Some things I could not unplug such as the modem and router, koi pond pump, refrigerators.  Unfortunately I still had the problem with some devices not responding at all to the four tap test originated from the PLM.  Those devices will respond if the 4 tap test is triggered from other devices. Here is the event log for PLM comms to my hallway KPL single band.  Most of my critical circuits and insteon devices are on panel B and the sub for which I have things bridged.  The hallway KPL is on panel A.  I do not have the router on a filterlinc, so I think I need to try that,  Maybe move the PLM to a different area of the house.

Fri 12/12/2014 10:22:59 AM : [INST-TX-I1  ] 02 62 16 79 83 0F 19 00

Fri 12/12/2014 10:22:59 AM : [INST-ACK    ] 02 62 16.79.83 0F 19 00 06          LTSREQ (LIGHT)

Fri 12/12/2014 10:23:00 AM : [INST-SRX    ] 02 50 16.79.83 28.CC.86 27 00 0F           (0F)

Fri 12/12/2014 10:23:00 AM : [Std-Direct Ack] 16.79.83-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=1

Fri 12/12/2014 10:23:00 AM : [D2D EVENT   ] Event [16 79 83 1] [ST] [15] uom=0 prec=-1

Fri 12/12/2014 10:23:00 AM : [  16 79 83 1]       ST  15

Fri 12/12/2014 10:23:00 AM : [D2D EVENT   ] Event [16 79 83 1] [OL] [255] uom=0 prec=-1

Fri 12/12/2014 10:23:00 AM : [  16 79 83 1]       OL 255

Fri 12/12/2014 10:23:00 AM : [D2D EVENT   ] Event [16 79 83 1] [RR] [31] uom=0 prec=-1

Fri 12/12/2014 10:23:00 AM : [  16 79 83 1]       RR  31

Fri 12/12/2014 10:23:00 AM : [INST-TX-I2  ] 02 62 16 79 83 1F 2E 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 D1

Fri 12/12/2014 10:23:00 AM : [INST-ACK    ] 02 62 16.79.83 1F 2E 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 D1 06        (00)

Fri 12/12/2014 10:23:02 AM : [INST-SRX    ] 02 50 16.79.83 28.CC.86 27 2E 00           (00)

Fri 12/12/2014 10:23:02 AM : [Std-Direct Ack] 16.79.83-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=1

Fri 12/12/2014 10:23:03 AM : [INST-SRX    ] 02 50 16.79.83 28.CC.86 23 2E 00           (00)

Fri 12/12/2014 10:23:03 AM : [Std-Direct Ack] 16.79.83-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=0

Fri 12/12/2014 10:23:04 AM : [INST-ERX    ] 02 51 16 79 83 28 CC 86 17 2E 00 01 01 00 00 20 20 1F FF 7A 00 11 00 00 00 

Fri 12/12/2014 10:23:04 AM : [Ext-Direct  ] 16.79.83-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=1

[Teken]

I know the older PLM's RF was not very strong to say the least. I am unsure if the newer hardware 2.0 does because I been told and seen that the newer Insteon releases, offer greater RF range.

 

Such as the new HUB II 250 ft range, Range Extender 200 ft range, Dual Outlet Linc 250 ft range.

 

Looking at your logs your COM's are marginal given the amount of gear you have. Then again this could because you are running the test while half the house is dark?

[Xathros]

EricK-

 

I would not expect every dual band device to respond to the 4 tap test - this is quite normal and acceptable.  The 4 Tap Test (Beacon Test) starts an RF beacon transmitting on the device where the test is initiated.  The responding devices are devices that are within RF range of the transmitting device.  The color of the response indicates which phase (leg) the receiving device(s) is/are on relative to the transmitting device (Red-Same, Green-Opposite).  Devices not responding at all are out of RF range and cannot hear the beacon (or or not dual band devices).  When testing again from another device, you have changed the location of the RF beacon so it stands to reason that the responding devices may change as well.

 

Hope this helps.

 

-Xathros

[EricK]

Guys, thanks as always. Does the rf signal not get repeated during the 4 tap test. The kpl (no load) with the bad coms is in a box with an x10 switch set up in a 4 way for upstairs hall lights that we almost never turn on. I may have the gear on the shelf to replace all 3 to get a db next to the kpl. Too bad I procrastinated on the black switchlincs and didn't buy some filter lincs with the sale.

[Teken]

Guys, thanks as always. Does the rf signal not get repeated during the 4 tap test. The kpl (no load) with the bad coms is in a box with an x10 switch set up in a 4 way for upstairs hall lights that we almost never turn on. I may have the gear on the shelf to replace all 3 to get a db next to the kpl. Too bad I procrastinated on the black switchlincs and didn't buy some filter lincs with the sale.

 

The 4 tap beacon test only (broadcast) the RF signal and runs for the four minute duration its active.

[Brian H]

Some of the latest hardware revisions. Seem to have the RF Beacon test as part of the set button flow chart and the four tap test is not mentioned in the manuals.  I have seen no posts on the four tap tests also working if the test was buried in the Flow Chart.

[EricK]

Teken,

I don't think the rfis repeated. I think devices are in range or the transmitting device or not. The receivers seem to not resend, otherwise all of my db devices would respond.

[Teken]

Teken,

I don't think the rfis repeated. I think devices are in range or the transmitting device or not. The receivers seem to not resend, otherwise all of my db devices would respond.

 

Maybe we are talking about two different things here. As far as I am aware when you place a device in broadcast / beacon mode. This broadcast device sends a signal to other receiving devices with in RF range. If the the signal is with in the range of the sender it will indicate same phase / opposite phase.

 

Whether you want to define it as *repeated* that is kind of subjective no? Because during the 4 minutes its sending the signal over the air over and over. If you mean is the receiver rebroadcasting the the RF, no.

 

All the receiver device is doing when it receive a command to ack the coupling is to blink same phase / opposite phase.

[EricK]

Teken you answered my question. Is the receiver rebroadcasting the rf, no. My lamp lincs arrived, yay.

[stusviews]

EricK, it is OK to share a neutral if and only if the circuits are on opposite legs. In fact, if the load is balanced (equal loads), then the neutral carries no current at all. OTOH, if the circuits are not on opposite legs then the current in the neutral wire is the sum of both loads and the wire can overheat. In your specific situation you can install two outlets, one on each opposite leg, and share the neutral 

 

Also, the new LampLincs do not stop broadcasting during the beacon test until the test is manually ended (by pressing on the set button).

[Teken]

Also, the new LampLincs do not stop broadcasting during the beacon test until the test is manually ended (by pressing on the set button).

Stu,

 

Smartlabs has gone away from the 4 minute beacon test duration?

 

 

Encrypted By: Phoenix Security Solutions

[EricK]

Stu,

For now I just cut the two 15a breakers to the x10 repeater. Silly me when i did my testing this morning I forgot to unplug the alarm panels. My io linc for somfyndry contact interface is plugged into the same outlet and has poor comms. I just piggy backed an AP and coms are better. I am going to move the ISY/PLM to the main floor where most of my gear is rather than the basement.

[stusviews]

Stu,

 

Smartlabs has gone away from the 4 minute beacon test duration?

 

 

Encrypted By: Phoenix Security Solutions

 

LampLincs are the only devices I've come across that need to be stopped manually.

[Teken]

LampLincs are the only devices I've come across that need to be stopped manually.

 

I really wish I could test that out on the older one that died a few years ago. But, lucky for me a 4 pack is enroute so I will check this out great info for the future.