wayneph Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 I currently have two 2441TH Thermostats that have been running at my house for about a year. I use one each on the upstairs and downstairs units. All of my programming is controlled via the ISY so it doesn't use any of the "standard" thermostat programs. For the most part it does pretty good, but when the temperature starts dropping there are a couple rooms upstairs that get colder than the rest. The upstairs thermostat really isn't placed well with the layout of the house. Warm air from the downstairs comes up past the stairs and makes the upstairs unit think the temperature is good, so it turns off. I've seen as much as a 10-12F degree variance stepping from the hallway into the bedroom which is only a few feet from the Thermostat. In reading the multiple threads about the 2441ZTH Wireless Stat, I'm managed to confuse myself about whether it will accomplish what I need. I have picked up that the ISY implementation of the 2441ZTH isn't complete. What I would like to do is add the wireless thermostat in the bedroom, and have ISY read those values for making decisions rather than the main thermostat. I wouldn't "link" the Thermostats in the true "Master/Slave" mode. I would simply have ISY turn the furnace on based on the Wireless Temperature as opposed to the main thermostat temperature. If I understand correctly, this will "require" adding the power plug just to make sure it is sending messages back to ISY with temperature updates. I'll probably end up adding power either way, but just want to make sure I understood the device correctly. Does this sound like it would work in the ISY setup? (In the long run, I should probably have someone look at the complete HVAC design upstairs. I don't like where the single return is located, and to keep the dog in certain areas of the house during the day, I keep some doors closed further restricting airflow. I know I've got a few other issues to address, but want something simpler to start.) Thanks, Wayne
stusviews Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 I use a 2441ZTH as a remote for the wired thermostat. Although the (zone 1) wired thermostat is added to the ISY, the wireless thermostat is not.
wayneph Posted January 16, 2015 Author Posted January 16, 2015 If the wireless isn't added to the ISY, are you just using it as a remote control? For my scenario, I think I'll have to add it to ISY otherwise I don't know how I could get temperature data for driving the programs...
Brian H Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 I don't see the 2441ZTH listed in the drop down list of modules it knows about. You may want to verify it can even be added to an ISY setup.
Techman Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 The thermostat has a temperature node that sends its data to the ISY. IF temperature node is => 65 Then do something Else <nothing>
larryllix Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 The thermostat has a humidity node that sends it's data to the ISY CCell Humidity Control - [ID 005A][Parent 00B5] If Status 'Cold Cellar / CCell Therm' > 70% (Humidity) And Status 'Cold Cellar / CCell Therm' > 10° (Temperature) Then Repeat Every 8 hours Set 'Spare OnOff Module' On Wait 4 hours Set 'Spare OnOff Module' Off Else - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')
larryllix Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 (edited) I don't see the 2441ZTH listed in the drop down list of modules it knows about. You may want to verify it can even be added to an ISY setup. Nope. The 2441ZTH was never listed as supported and thus maybe some of the source of the complaints that it was never implemented properly. It may have been thought to be the same interface/unit as the 2441TH (wired) perhaps causing many of the control features not to work. The 2441ZTH controls are not that important to operation as the thermostat has no outputs to be controlled anyway, only Insteon communications of temperature and humidity to the ISY. Many do not understand the concept of "report by exception" used by the thermostat (by design) and many other SCADA systems to report critical data. Because it doesn't report on a timed cycle basis many think it is defective or not-functioning. The humidity update functions as a heartbeat to ISY for the thermostat, just fine. "Report by exception" requires a value to violate the rules sets to report. ie:(A temperature change) AND (the change is outside of the change allowance) The "Report by exception" usually includes a timed "all-else-fails" update (say.. once per hour?) serving as a "heartbeat" by most systems. The 2441ZTH doesn't have one. That is a psychological problem for some, seeing a blank reading, upon ISY reboots, until the temperature changes. ISY could mask this but is being kept honest for users. I have two versions of firmware in my 2441ZTH thermostats and both work just fine with the ISY. It knows what they are, but different (unneeded to function) controls on each do not work. Edited January 16, 2015 by larryllix
stusviews Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 If the wireless isn't added to the ISY, are you just using it as a remote control? Yes, all but one of our wireless thermostats are used as remotes for the HVAC. The exception is a standalone for a fireplace.
larryllix Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 Yes, all but one of our wireless thermostats are used as remotes for the HVAC. The exception is a standalone for a fireplace. Curious: How does the control flow from the wireless units work? How do they show up in ISY or control (assuming) zones hen they are signal hooked to the 2441TH (wired) unit only?
stusviews Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 I didn't add them to the ISY. They function as a remote control only. No matter which is the master, wired or wireless, the ISY reads only the zoned wired thermostat. That's what suits our specific needs. There's no need to use devices as they were intended--well, load does matter. For example, we have a standalone wireless thermostat for the bedroom fireplace. If we linked the wireless thermostat to the wired thermostat, as it is meant to be, then we would no longer have thermostatic control of the fireplace.
larryllix Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) I didn't add them to the ISY. They function as a remote control only. No matter which is the master, wired or wireless, the ISY reads only the zoned wired thermostat. That's what suits our specific needs. There's no need to use devices as they were intended--well, load does matter. For example, we have a standalone wireless thermostat for the bedroom fireplace. If we linked the wireless thermostat to the wired thermostat, as it is meant to be, then we would no longer have thermostatic control of the fireplace. Thanks stu but... Maybe I didn't ask my question correctly. What do the wireless units, connected into the wired unit, do or control? Can the ISY see their temps?, control outputs? Does the wired thermostat use the wireless data somehow? I understand the 2441ZTH units act as zone sensors and controllers but how can the wired unit control multiple zones? I do not have one. Does it have multiple contact outputs? Edited January 17, 2015 by larryllix
stusviews Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 Our HVAC has a zone panel. Each zone has/requires a wired thermostat. Other than being home automation enabled, the Insteon thermostats function as any programmed thermostat does. The ISY has control of those thermostats. For example, we have a "Dine Out" button that turns off most of the house lights, turns on a few and also turns off the zones. When a wireless thermostat is linked to the wired thermostat it duplicates all of the wired thermostat's functions except that it can have its own programming. Either thermostat can be the Master, but that has to be set at the thermostat itself. An important use is when the wired thermostat is not located correctly. When attached to a wall, it is indistinguishable from the wired thermostat. It also has a table stand. We don't use them that way. We use them as HVAC remote controls, so when we're watching a movie, for example, or having dinner, there's no need to walk to the thermostat to change the setting. Ahh, home automation BTW, each wired thermostat can be managed by only up to two wireless thermostats, so we also use RemoteLincs as HVAC remotes, sans display.
wayneph Posted January 17, 2015 Author Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) Thanks everyone for the replies. It also dawned on me as I read through this that I was thinking about this all wrong. Currently the majority of my climate ISY Programs are just changing the set points in the two Thermostats, so I'm actually using the "native" control for actually turning the HVAC units on and off. What I am really looking for is the ability to use an "alternate" temperature source which is the normal purpose of the device. I think I'll end up just linking the wireless device to the Main Thermostat and putting the Wireless in Master Mode. As long as updating the wired setpoints from ISY still hold true with the Wireless set as Master, I'll be in good shape. If it will allow me to see both of the temperatures in ISY, I may link it just so that I can collect the values using a powershell script I have running against the REST interface. If nothing else it will give me one more thing to look at. Larry, although I don't think I'll end up needing it, I think I would have been OK with the report by exception. Regarding the lack of value on ISY restart, would it be possible to just Query the device the first time? From that point on, everything should be fine, right? Edited January 17, 2015 by wayneph
larryllix Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 .... Larry, although I don't think I'll end up needing it, I think I would have been OK with the report by exception. Regarding the lack of value on ISY restart, would it be possible to just Query the device the first time? From that point on, everything should be fine, right? Query will update ISY parameters like setpoints, mode, fan control but not temperature. Once the temp updates it stays in sync. I have had occasional blanks when I took one unit below 3 degrees C. There have been a few other times but I believe it was after an ISY upgrade etc..
PhanTomiZ Posted March 3, 2015 Posted March 3, 2015 Query will update ISY parameters like setpoints, mode, fan control but not temperature. Once the temp updates it stays in sync. I have had occasional blanks when I took one unit below 3 degrees C. There have been a few other times but I believe it was after an ISY upgrade etc.. My wireless just started with a blank "Current State". Just upgraded firmware to match UI. They were different versions. Now that I have the same versions of UI and firmware (V.4.2.23), my Motion Sensors are taking and writing their settings properly (previous problem rectified). Odd thing though, my "Current State" doesn't ever update. It is always blank, no room temperature status. I use this Wireless TStat to turn on a space heater with an On/Off module (stand alone but linked with ISY for program functions). It seems to regulate the heat properly, turn on and off the space heater to the set-point values, but there is no feedback back to the ISY. Any added thoughts would be appreciated PhanTomiZ
stusviews Posted March 3, 2015 Posted March 3, 2015 What is the result if you query the the thermostat?
PhanTomiZ Posted March 3, 2015 Posted March 3, 2015 Woke up this morning and "Current State" was 66. Strange, because when I had this thermostat linked to HL, it never exhibited this effect. Also,the "setpoint up 1 degree" and "setpoint down 1 degree" on the bottom is missing... Tue 03/03/2015 05:53:40 AM : [iNST-TX-I2CS] 02 62 20 48 DA 1F 2E 02 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 92 96 Tue 03/03/2015 05:53:40 AM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 20.48.DA 1F 2E 02 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 92 96 06 (02) Tue 03/03/2015 05:53:40 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 20.48.DA 33.5E.55 2F 2E 02 (02) Tue 03/03/2015 05:53:40 AM : [std-Direct Ack] 20.48.DA-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=3 Tue 03/03/2015 05:53:41 AM : [iNST-ERX ] 02 51 20 48 DA 33 5E 55 15 2E 02 01 09 05 35 34 20 4B 1E 00 C5 20 43 4C 94 Tue 03/03/2015 05:53:41 AM : [Ext-Direct ] 20.48.DA-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=1, Hops Left=1 Tue 03/03/2015 05:53:41 AM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [20 48 DA 1] [CLISPC] [150] uom=0 prec=-1 Tue 03/03/2015 05:53:41 AM : [ 20 48 DA 1] CLISPC 150 Tue 03/03/2015 05:53:41 AM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [20 48 DA 1] [CLISPH] [134] uom=0 prec=-1 Tue 03/03/2015 05:53:41 AM : [ 20 48 DA 1] CLISPH 134 Tue 03/03/2015 05:53:41 AM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [20 48 DA 1] [CLIHUM] [30] uom=0 prec=-1 Tue 03/03/2015 05:53:41 AM : [ 20 48 DA 1] CLIHUM 30 Tue 03/03/2015 05:53:41 AM : [iNST-TX-I2CS] 02 62 20 48 DA 1F 2E 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 D2 Tue 03/03/2015 05:53:42 AM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 20.48.DA 1F 2E 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 D2 06 (00) Tue 03/03/2015 05:53:42 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 20.48.DA 33.5E.55 2F 2E 00 (00) Tue 03/03/2015 05:53:42 AM : [std-Direct Ack] 20.48.DA-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=3 Tue 03/03/2015 05:53:43 AM : [iNST-ERX ] 02 51 20 48 DA 33 5E 55 15 2E 00 00 01 00 C5 1E F6 0A 02 00 3C 03 04 00 00 Tue 03/03/2015 05:53:43 AM : [Ext-Direct ] 20.48.DA-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=1, Hops Left=1 Tue 03/03/2015 05:53:43 AM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [20 48 DA 1] [CLIMD] [1] uom=0 prec=-1 Tue 03/03/2015 05:53:43 AM : [ 20 48 DA 1] CLIMD 1 Tue 03/03/2015 05:53:43 AM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [20 48 DA 1] [CLIFS] [8] uom=0 prec=-1 Tue 03/03/2015 05:53:43 AM : [ 20 48 DA 1] CLIFS 8 Tue 03/03/2015 05:53:43 AM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [20 48 DA 1] [uOM] [2] uom=0 prec=-1 Tue 03/03/2015 05:53:43 AM : [ 20 48 DA 1] UOM 2
Brian H Posted March 3, 2015 Posted March 3, 2015 (edited) When you reboot. Like with a firmware update. The current state is blank until the device is queried or reports in if it is an RF device. All the buttons on my Remotelinc show no current state on its buttons. Until each one is activated. If you have Query at restart checked in the configuration tab. The power line devices should show their present state. If you have a Pro version and have Automatic Writes or Automatic Writes to RF Devices disabled. They default to On after a reboot. Edited March 3, 2015 by Brian H
PhanTomiZ Posted March 3, 2015 Posted March 3, 2015 When you reboot. Like with a firmware update. The current state is blank until the device is queried or reports in if it is an RF device. All the buttons on my Remotelinc show no current state on its buttons. Until each one is activated. If you have Query at restart checked in the configuration tab. The power line devices should show their present state. If you have a Pro version and have Automatic Writes or Automatic Writes to RF Devices disabled. They default to On after a reboot. When you say the device is queried, do you mean manually by right clicking and hitting "Query"? I had tried this multiple times to no avail. I do have this wireless TStat fed with a 5 Vdc wall wart so I assumed that it would be "alive" at all times. I didn't like the characteristics of battery operation. I have a few other RF devices, Motion Sensors, that don't show "Current State" either ...
Xathros Posted March 3, 2015 Posted March 3, 2015 (edited) Also,the "setpoint up 1 degree" and "setpoint down 1 degree" on the bottom is missing... You are missing more than just setpoint up/dn, also missing schedule and options buttons. Are you sure they just aren't off the screen? you screen shot does not include the very bottom of the interface where the buttons appear for me. -Xathros Edited March 3, 2015 by Xathros
LeeG Posted March 3, 2015 Posted March 3, 2015 The 2441ZTH battery powered thermostat does not have Setpoint Up/Setpoint Down. Does not matter if using a power supply, as a battery device those buttons are not available.
PhanTomiZ Posted March 3, 2015 Posted March 3, 2015 You are missing more than just setpoint up/dn, also missing schedule and options buttons. Are you sure they just aren't off the screen? you screen shot does not include the very bottom of the interface where the buttons appear for me. -Xathros This is possible. I'll have to check when I get home... Also, I am remote now and using the udajax. My wired TStat is functioning correctly as I can hit the arrows and either add or subtract a degree or more. The wireless TStat, when I attempt to increase or decrease, I get this error... error, Loading: /nodes/20 48 DA 1/cmd/DIM But if I click on the wireless TStat, I'm able to actually change the setpoint number by selecting it from the drop down box. I don't recall whether I was able to do this prior to the upgraded firmware...
PhanTomiZ Posted March 3, 2015 Posted March 3, 2015 The 2441ZTH battery powered thermostat does not have Setpoint Up/Setpoint Down. Does not matter if using a power supply, as a battery device those buttons are not available. Ok, makes sense, because I don't recall them being on that page from the Admin Console. I use the udajax page for remote control as I cannot get past my daytime proxy server to get access to the Admin Console...
Xathros Posted March 3, 2015 Posted March 3, 2015 The 2441ZTH battery powered thermostat does not have Setpoint Up/Setpoint Down. Does not matter if using a power supply, as a battery device those buttons are not available. I should have caught that! -Xathros
PhanTomiZ Posted March 3, 2015 Posted March 3, 2015 I should have caught that! -Xathros So, I take it if the option in the Admin Console is not there, then the Up/Down arrows on the udajax page are not functional, hence the error message I'm receiving when trying to increase/decrease by 1 degree at a time...
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