Scyto Posted February 2, 2015 Posted February 2, 2015 I have a pretty complicated set of scenes for two KeyPad Dimmers - the ones with 5 responders/controllers (6 buttons). When I use mobilinc to tap the A B C D buttons on the device in mobilic the scene does not behave as it does when tapping the physical button on the KPD - can detail if needed but is super complicated. I have issues when I tap the load buttons too - for example on one of the KPDs I tap the on button and it doesn't light the load however the on button led lights up and the linked responder activates. Tapping the scenes directly doesn't work what is common between the two scenarios is all buttons and both controllers and responders - to multiple scenes. To be clear pressing the physical buttons on the devices works perfectly. Is this a known issue? Is there a way for me to export the config to document the setup?
Scyto Posted February 2, 2015 Author Posted February 2, 2015 More detail: When I press B on the Cans KPD it sets it sets both the cans and the sconces to 50%. Press it again both cans and sconces turn off This works fine. Basically the ABCD buttons are used to set the brightness in the bedroom for both cans an sconces (ABCD buttons on sconces KPD are unused). the reset scene just turns of the LEDs on the ABCD buttons if someone manually changes the load. When I press B on the virtual Cans KPD in mobilinc only the sconces light. Pressing it again turns off the sconces. I also noticed in the HTML topology output (only just found this feature) all my dimmers and switches are marked as not controlling a load, even though they are - does this matter? Master Bedroom / Master Bedroom Cans 29.4A.C3.1 - No Master Bedroom / Cans ABCD light reset: ControllerMaster Bedroom / Bedroom 20%: ResponderMaster Bedroom / Master Bedroom Lights Off: ResponderMaster Bedroom / Bedroom 50%: ResponderMaster Bedroom / Bedroom 75%: ResponderMaster Bedroom / Bedroom 100%: Responder (2334-2) KeypadLinc Dimmer 5 Buttons v.43 - Master Bedroom / Master Bedroom Cans / Master Bedroom Cans.A 29.4A.C3.3 - No Master Bedroom / Cans ABCD light reset: ResponderMaster Bedroom / Bedroom 20%: ControllerMaster Bedroom / Bedroom 50%: ResponderMaster Bedroom / Bedroom 75%: ResponderMaster Bedroom / Sconces ABCD Reset: ResponderMaster Bedroom / Bedroom 100%: Responder (2334-2) KeypadLinc Dimmer 5 Buttons v.43 - Master Bedroom / Master Bedroom Cans / Master Bedroom Cans.B 29.4A.C3.4 - No Master Bedroom / Cans ABCD light reset: ResponderMaster Bedroom / Bedroom 20%: ResponderMaster Bedroom / Bedroom 50%: ControllerMaster Bedroom / Bedroom 75%: ResponderMaster Bedroom / Sconces ABCD Reset: ResponderMaster Bedroom / Bedroom 100%: Responder (2334-2) KeypadLinc Dimmer 5 Buttons v.43 - Master Bedroom / Master Bedroom Cans / Master Bedroom Cans.C 29.4A.C3.5 - No Master Bedroom / Cans ABCD light reset: ResponderMaster Bedroom / Bedroom 20%: ResponderMaster Bedroom / Bedroom 50%: ResponderMaster Bedroom / Bedroom 75%: ControllerMaster Bedroom / Sconces ABCD Reset: ResponderMaster Bedroom / Bedroom 100%: Responder (2334-2) KeypadLinc Dimmer 5 Buttons v.43 - Master Bedroom / Master Bedroom Cans / Master Bedroom Cans.D 29.4A.C3.6 - No Master Bedroom / Cans ABCD light reset: ResponderMaster Bedroom / Bedroom 20%: ResponderMaster Bedroom / Bedroom 50%: ResponderMaster Bedroom / Bedroom 75%: ResponderMaster Bedroom / Sconces ABCD Reset: ResponderMaster Bedroom / Bedroom 100%: Controller (2334-2) KeypadLinc Dimmer 5 Buttons v.43 - Master Bedroom / Master Bedroom Sconces 29.4B.8E.1 - No Master Bedroom / Bedroom 20%: ResponderMaster Bedroom / Master Bedroom Lights Off: ResponderMaster Bedroom / Bedroom 50%: ResponderMaster Bedroom / Bedroom 75%: ResponderMaster Bedroom / Sconces ABCD Reset: ControllerMaster Bedroom / Bedroom 100%: Responder (2334-2) KeypadLinc Dimmer 5 Buttons
oberkc Posted February 2, 2015 Posted February 2, 2015 With regards to why the scenes do not respond to mobilinc, this is normal. Keypad buttons behave as scene controllers only when activated manually. To control a scene from mobilinc, do not choose the keypad button. Rather, choose the scene. Regarding the device load not responding to the load button, myfirst instinct is to confirm ON levels are not zero, or that ramp rates are not crazy long.
Jimbo.Automates Posted February 2, 2015 Posted February 2, 2015 Also when controlling the scene from mobilinc it will use the levels defined for the scene itself, just like if you control the scene using the Admin Console or Dashboard.
Scyto Posted February 2, 2015 Author Posted February 2, 2015 When I select the 50% scene the lights (cans and sconces) come on at 100% Not at 50% like they do when I press the button. I have been setting the brightness of the load on the controller node of the scene (each scene has one controller (B Button) and 5 responders (the ACD buttons and the 2 loads)) I notice at the scene top node there is also the ability to set load levels. I don't understand why the levels appear in both places? Is this why my scene doesn't work? How do these two level locations interact?
LeeG Posted February 2, 2015 Posted February 2, 2015 Yes. Each Responder has a unique set of On Level/Ramp Rate values for each Controller. Physically pressing the KPL (KPD) button, the button is the Controller. Turning the Scene On with MobiLinc, Admin Console, the PLM is the Controller. The On Level/Ramp Rate values are stored in each Responder in a Responder link record (starts with A2) that is keyed to the Controller Insteon address.
Scyto Posted February 2, 2015 Author Posted February 2, 2015 So if I understand you I need to set my settings identically at both nodes (the scene node and the controller node) because the level settings at the scene node is for anything that calls the scene that isn't the controller (like an app) and the level settings at the controller node in the scene are for the physical button. Assuming I got that right, wow that's arcane and totally not obvious, the UI should IMO just hide that away and set the same - I now understand what the copy settings command is for. I also guess I have a mobilic feature request. Let me have an option that makes pressing the ABCD button on the device UI actually perform the associated scene. That way on the iPad ihave one graphical element - a picture of the KPD that performs like the real buttons. This is what I need for WAF (wife acceptance factor) rather than having to have 4 scene graphics in the favorites.
oberkc Posted February 2, 2015 Posted February 2, 2015 I notice at the scene top node there is also the ability to set load levels. I don't understand why the levels appear in both places? Is this why my scene doesn't work? How do these two level locations interact? To expand upon Leeg's response, ALL scenes have a "hidden" controller...the PLM. And the responder levels can be set different for this controller, compared to other controllers in the same scene. The responder level for what you refer to as the scene top node. These are the levels achieved when the scene is activated through the admin consloe, a program, or via mobilinc.
LeeG Posted February 2, 2015 Posted February 2, 2015 "Let me have an option that makes pressing the ABCD button on the device UI actually perform the associated scene." Not an Insteon capability. The PLM (Scene name) initiated activity is using the PLM Insteon address. Pressing a KPL (KPD) button is using the KPL Insteon address. As far as any Responder is concerned these are two different Insteon Scenes. It is not possible to have a KPL button press send an Insteon message showing the PLM as the Controller. There is an insteondetails.pdf doc on insteon.com that covers much information about how Insteon works.
Scyto Posted February 2, 2015 Author Posted February 2, 2015 "Let me have an option that makes pressing the ABCD button on the device UI actually perform the associated scene." Not an Insteon capability. The PLM (Scene name) initiated activity is using the PLM Insteon address. Pressing a KPL (KPD) button is using the KPL Insteon address. As far as any Responder is concerned these are two different Insteon Scenes. It is not possible to have a KPL button press send an Insteon message showing the PLM as the Controller. There is an insteondetails.pdf doc on insteon.com that covers much information about how Insteon works. I will be clearer I need an option in mobilinc for the KPDs graphical representation in the UI that lets me change pressing the ABCD on the graphical representation from doing the function it does today to it actually calling the scene associated with that button and thus having the PLM be the controller. without this showing me a graphical representation of the ABCD buttons is pointless. I.E let me assign an arbitrary scene to the button and then call that scene via the PLM. This is all just UI in the OML app not changes to insteon capabilities. (also I am still confused because when I pressed the B button in orch mobilinc it turned the sconces on to 50% and left the cans turned off so it worked with 50% of the responders...but anyways that's for another day?)
oberkc Posted February 2, 2015 Posted February 2, 2015 (also I am still confused because when I pressed the B button in orch mobilinc it turned the sconces on to 50% and left the cans turned off so it worked with 50% of the responders...but anyways that's for another day?) I suspect that this may be a forgotten program response. Press button B and observe the program listing to see if any program responds. I do not believe that this is a scene response.
LeeG Posted February 2, 2015 Posted February 2, 2015 Pressing the A,B,C,D button under MobiLinc is running the Scenexxxx with the PLM as the Controller. It is not possible for MobiLinc to run B button Insteon Scene. MobiLinc made a design decision to invoke Scenexxxx when B button is a Controller in that ISY Scene. Unlike a SwitchLinc that turns On the physical load when the SwitchLinc is turned On, turning On a Secondary button "B" does not physically turn On a load since Secondary buttons do not physically control a load. To come as close as possible MobiLinc invokes the ISY Scene. Scenexxxx - Insteon Scene with PLM as Controller KPL B button - Controller - Insteon Scene with button B as Controller Need to see Scenexxxx definition. If only Sconces turn On then that must be how the Scenexxxx Responders are setup. Either the cans are not Responders or they have 0% On Level.
Scyto Posted February 2, 2015 Author Posted February 2, 2015 Thanks LeeG/OberkC - I just changed the scene node and control node on-levels to match. I think the root of the issue may be an ISY and not a mobilinc - not sure.... When I initiate the scene from within the admin console for B 50% it looks like the attached. This indicates that the sconces and cans are at 50% and the B button is on. However when I go to the room and look I see that the sconces are on, the cans are off and the B button is not lit. WTF!??!
InsteonNut Posted February 2, 2015 Posted February 2, 2015 Hi Scyto, Here's what MobiLinc is doing related to your scenarios: When you are under "Devices" in MobiLinc and you tap a device icon (SwitchLinc, KPL button A-H, icon, etc) MobiLinc first looks to see if that device is actually a controller of a scene in your setup. If the answer is yes, then MobiLinc issues a scene ON/OFF command to that scene instead. This is "supposed" to resemble the effect when you physically press the button or turn the device on in the real world. However, as you've noticed, this isn't always true. You can have a scene defined one way and the same scene defined specific to the controller. MobiLinc can ONLY activate the scene. MobiLinc cannot tell the KPL to press itself. (INSTEON spec limitations) So, if your device controller's scene definition matches the scene's definition for ON then pressing the KPL in the real world and pressing the KPL button in MobiLinc will generate the same resultant scene. Whew! Does that make sense? Wes
LeeG Posted February 2, 2015 Posted February 2, 2015 Right click on Master Bedroom Cans node, select Diagnostics | Show Device Links Table. Post the link record list along with the PLM Insteon address.
LeeG Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 You can also run a Scene Test. Right click on Scene name and select Diagnostics | Scene Test. The results should look similar to attached image.
Scyto Posted February 3, 2015 Author Posted February 3, 2015 Right click on Master Bedroom Cans node, select Diagnostics | Show Device Links Table. Post the link record list along with the PLM Insteon address. attached and this is the results of the scene test Mon 02/02/2015 18:14:30 : [GRP-RX ] 02 61 1A 13 00 06 Mon 02/02/2015 18:14:31 : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 29.4A.C3 2A.1C.FF 61 13 1A LTOFFRR(1A) Mon 02/02/2015 18:14:31 : [std-Cleanup Ack] 29.4A.C3-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0 Mon 02/02/2015 18:14:31 : [CLEAN-UP-RPT] 02 58 06 Mon 02/02/2015 18:14:31 : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 29.4A.C3 2A.1C.FF 61 13 1A LTOFFRR(1A) Mon 02/02/2015 18:14:31 : [std-Cleanup Ack] 29.4A.C3-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0 Mon 02/02/2015 18:14:31 : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 29.4B.8E 2A.1C.FF 61 13 1A LTOFFRR(1A) Mon 02/02/2015 18:14:31 : [std-Cleanup Ack] 29.4B.8E-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0 <html><font color="red">----- Bedroom 50% Test Results -----</font></html> <html><font color="red">[succeeded]</font> Master Bedroom Cans (29 4A C3 1)</html> <html><font color="red">[succeeded]</font> Master Bedroom Cans.C (29 4A C3 5)</html> <html><font color="red">[succeeded]</font> Master Bedroom Cans.B (29 4A C3 4)</html> <html><font color="red">[succeeded]</font> Master Bedroom Cans.A (29 4A C3 3)</html> <html><font color="red">[succeeded]</font> Master Bedroom Cans.D (29 4A C3 6)</html> <html><font color="red">[succeeded]</font> Master Bedroom Sconces (29 4B 8E 1)</html> <html><font color="red">----- Bedroom 50% Test Results -----</font></html>
Scyto Posted February 3, 2015 Author Posted February 3, 2015 Hi Scyto, Here's what MobiLinc is doing related to your scenarios: When you are under "Devices" in MobiLinc and you tap a device icon (SwitchLinc, KPL button A-H, icon, etc) MobiLinc first looks to see if that device is actually a controller of a scene in your setup. If the answer is yes, then MobiLinc issues a scene ON/OFF command to that scene instead. This is "supposed" to resemble the effect when you physically press the button or turn the device on in the real world. However, as you've noticed, this isn't always true. You can have a scene defined one way and the same scene defined specific to the controller. MobiLinc can ONLY activate the scene. MobiLinc cannot tell the KPL to press itself. (INSTEON spec limitations) So, if your device controller's scene definition matches the scene's definition for ON then pressing the KPL in the real world and pressing the KPL button in MobiLinc will generate the same resultant scene. Whew! Does that make sense? Wes Yes it does make sense. I think it is setup the same. It doesn't result in the same resultant scene. Something is strange. This is not a haiku
LeeG Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 The cans are not On nor is button B as I suspect comm issues with KPL (KPD) 29 4A C3. There are multiple Scene ACK messages from that device during the Scene Test. Look at the Scene Test results I posted, there is a single ACK from the KPL. The Scene Test uses normal Insteon retry logic. The Scene On for Bedroom 50% has no ACKs or retries. It must work from the single Scene On message. What is the KPL (KPD) firmware level and is the KPL Dual Band? With Event Trace at LEVEL 3, use the Admin Console to turn on the cans load ON button. Cycle the load On and Off a few times using the Admin Console and post the event trace. It may show a need for retries to get the load On.
Scyto Posted February 3, 2015 Author Posted February 3, 2015 LeeG, on 02 Feb 2015 - 8:09 PM, said:LeeG, on 02 Feb 2015 - 8:09 PM, said: The cans are not On nor is button B as I suspect comm issues with KPL (KPD) 29 4A C3. There are multiple Scene ACK messages from that device during the Scene Test. Look at the Scene Test results I posted, there is a single ACK from the KPL. The Scene Test uses normal Insteon retry logic. The Scene On for Bedroom 50% has no ACKs or retries. It must work from the single Scene On message. What is the KPL (KPD) firmware level and is the KPL Dual Band? With Event Trace at LEVEL 3, use the Admin Console to turn on the cans load ON button. Cycle the load On and Off a few times using the Admin Console and post the event trace. It may show a need for retries to get the load On. Thanks LeeG I did the manual test 4 or 5 timed toggling on and off the load with the event viewer set to 3 - I see no retries (attached) The unit is version is a Keypad Dimmer (hence why I insist calling it a KPD ) - it is model 2334-2 v43 as reported by the ISY UI yes it is dual band. And yes you are right the sconces load on the 4B 8E and the B button on the 4A C3 is lit. FYI I tried the C, D and A button actions - the cans don't change and the C,D,A buttons don't light (even though the are like the B in how they are setup) - I tried doing a restore to the device (I hadn't reset it) that didn't help. Should I try resetting it. I also want to note I have another KPD besides this pair and it has never worked properly either...... all the buttons light up for no reason..... ISY-Events-Log.v4.2.18__Mon 2015.02.02 21.09.58.txt
LeeG Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 I've been calling them KPLs since 2005. Most folks have KPLs installed (I have 12 in the main house plus many more in the test bed) so it will take some time to switch to a different device name.The Hops Left count is fine in the trace although there are some odd sequences traced. I suspect there may be Programs reacting to the load control node changing states.Mon 02/02/2015 21:06:33 : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 29 4A C3 0F 13 00Mon 02/02/2015 21:06:33 : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 29.4A.C3 0F 13 00 06 LTOFFRR(00)Mon 02/02/2015 21:06:33 : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 29.4A.C3 2A.1C.FF 2B 13 00 LTOFFRR(00)Mon 02/02/2015 21:06:33 : [std-Direct Ack] 29.4A.C3-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2Mon 02/02/2015 21:06:33 : [D2D EVENT ] Event [29 4A C3 1] [sT] [0] uom=0 prec=-1Mon 02/02/2015 21:06:33 : [ 29 4A C3 1] ST 0The Off command is repeated for unknown reasons with the ACK being ignored. This occurs in another place in the trace as well.Mon 02/02/2015 21:06:34 : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 29 4A C3 0F 13 00Mon 02/02/2015 21:06:34 : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 29.4A.C3 0F 13 00 06 LTOFFRR(00)Mon 02/02/2015 21:06:34 : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 29.4A.C3 2A.1C.FF 2B 13 00 LTOFFRR(00)Mon 02/02/2015 21:06:34 : [std-Direct Ack] 29.4A.C3-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2Mon 02/02/2015 21:06:34 : [iNST-DUP ] Previous message ignored . There is a duplicate ACK message from PLM serial command. Mon 02/02/2015 21:06:37 : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 29 4A C3 0F 11 FFMon 02/02/2015 21:06:37 : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 29.4A.C3 0F 11 FF 06 LTONRR (FF)Mon 02/02/2015 21:06:37 : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 29.4A.C3 0F 11 FF 06 LTONRR (FF): Duplicate or ACK for a different deviceMon 02/02/2015 21:06:38 : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 29.4A.C3 2A.1C.FF 2B 11 FF LTONRR (FF)Mon 02/02/2015 21:06:38 : [std-Direct Ack] 29.4A.C3-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2 Has the 120v leg coupling been verified with the PLM as the source of the beacon message (where 4 tap on Set button was done)?
Scyto Posted February 3, 2015 Author Posted February 3, 2015 No i have done no leg coupling test. What do I need to do besides pressing the PLM button 4 times? Should I jst move the ISY temporarily?
LeeG Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 Press the Set button on PLM 4 times. That will cause it to send an RF test message (Beacon). Check the various Dual Band devices to see if their LED is blinking consistently (beacon message being received) and color of LED. Blinking Red indicates the device is on the same 120v leg as the PLM, blinking Green indicates the device is on the opposite 120v leg. Check the KPL (KPD) that has the can lights to see if beacon message is reaching the device (LED blinking) and if on same (Red) or opposite (Green) 120v leg. Moving the ISY and PLM to a different location may be a good test but need to know what conditions are now before moving.
Scyto Posted February 3, 2015 Author Posted February 3, 2015 The KPDs (I only call them that to differentiate from the 2487S the KPL) not sure its important Anyways did the test, I have a variety of dimmers around the house flashing, some red some green. The 2 KPDs in the bedroom are not flashing at all. The KPD in the basement is flashing green. Is the leg determined by which side of the breaker box the loads breaker is on? i.e are all the breakers on one side one leg?
LeeG Posted February 4, 2015 Posted February 4, 2015 The lack of flashing in the bedroom means it is not receiving the RF activity. Could explain why a Scene command is not working well from PLM. Breakers alternate 120v legs vertically. A A B B A A B B . . . .
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