kaplansa Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 For some reason all the lights on the first floor of my home occasionally flicker. I have aboout 60 Insteon switches in my home (nearly 100 sensors in all when you include water, open/close, etc.). I've read elsewhere this could be sensitivity to Insteon traffic and/or a bad switch somewhere. Lights don't flicker on any regular frequency, and we're talking maybe a single flicker every couple of minutes. It's enough to drive you bonkers though. What is the best way to isolate the problem so I can fix it? Initially I started pulling out all the kill switch toggles (don't know what they're officially called - the little pull-tabs at the bottom of each switch that supposedly actually remove power to the switch) to every switch on my first floor one-by-one to see if the flicker stops. That didn't work. I haven't gone through the rest of the house yet to test this theory on other switches, but I still can. As I said though, the flickering only happens on the first floor of my home. I also pulled out a KPL entirely from the wall that I thought could be a problem (they're known to fail more frequently) but the flicker continued. Before I continue what could be a futile effort trying to locate the problem (assuming it's a bad switch somewhere) is there a way through looking at log files or something else that could help me determine more accurately what the problem is that's causing my lights to flicker? Much appreciated!!
stusviews Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 If the flicker occurs on a fairly regular basis, then start by locating which circuit breaker controls any one set of lights on the first floor. Turn off all circuit breakers except that one. Does the flicker stop? If so, then turn on breakers one at a time until the flicker recurs. What is the result of this test? Edit: What type of lights, LED, incandescent, CFL, other? What is wired to the lights, all Insteon devices, dimmers, On/Off devices, other?
fitzpatri8 Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 Are you using The Energy Detective equipment at this location?
NHWA Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 I just had this happen and it was a long process to fix. First you want to figure out if it is insteon related or not. See if you notice anything on non insteon lights. You also want to pay attention to if it is only the lights on one circuit or more than one circuit since you may have a loose neutral or other issue if it is on one circuit and not only insteon. Ultimately, I changed out a circuit breaker and all of the lights on one circuit only to find out that an insteon outdoor plug module was somehow causing the flicker and the problem was fixed with removal of it from my setup.
Xathros Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 I suspect the OP is using LED lighting. I have seen more and more of this as I transitioned away from incandescent to LED. The LED bulbs are capable of showing small variations in the power line where incandescent is not. With some bulbs, I can "see" Insteon traffic. With others I don't see the Insteon traffic but do see other fluctuations on the line. I don't know that there is any real solution to this when lighting with LED. -Xathros
larryllix Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 I just had this happen and it was a long process to fix. First you want to figure out if it is insteon related or not. See if you notice anything on non insteon lights. You also want to pay attention to if it is only the lights on one circuit or more than one circuit since you may have a loose neutral or other issue if it is on one circuit and not only insteon. Ultimately, I changed out a circuit breaker and all of the lights on one circuit only to find out that an insteon outdoor plug module was somehow causing the flicker and the problem was fixed with removal of it from my setup. That's where I would start also. As an electrical utility worker I have seen this problem many times. Loose neutrals, even on the incoming service connections to the grid lines can do this to the whole house. This is usually indicated by some bulbs glowing brighter at times indicating the neutral is shifting towards one of the phase lines lower the voltage on one side of your service while raising the voltage on the other side simultaneously. The pattern of lighting affected needs to be tracked down to zoom in on the location of this problem.
kaplansa Posted February 24, 2015 Author Posted February 24, 2015 If the flicker occurs on a fairly regular basis, then start by locating which circuit breaker controls any one set of lights on the first floor. Turn off all circuit breakers except that one. Does the flicker stop? If so, then turn on breakers one at a time until the flicker recurs. What is the result of this test? Edit: What type of lights, LED, incandescent, CFL, other? What is wired to the lights, all Insteon devices, dimmers, On/Off devices, other? All LED bulbs. I read in other forums that similar problems have occurred when using LEDs. I will eventually try the circuit breaker test. I'm hoping I'll be able to isolate the problem another way first without running up and down and of course figuring out what all the breakers are controlling (that's another all-day activity). Stand by...
kaplansa Posted February 24, 2015 Author Posted February 24, 2015 Are you using The Energy Detective equipment at this location? I am not. Looks rather expensive (especially if I'm going to use it as a one-time deal for troubleshooting this issue). How would it be used in this case to isolate the problem? Maybe in another thread you could explain to me other scenarios I might find it useful (justifying the cost a bit more, somewhat). Thanks!
kaplansa Posted February 24, 2015 Author Posted February 24, 2015 That's where I would start also. As an electrical utility worker I have seen this problem many times. Loose neutrals, even on the incoming service connections to the grid lines can do this to the whole house. This is usually indicated by some bulbs glowing brighter at times indicating the neutral is shifting towards one of the phase lines lower the voltage on one side of your service while raising the voltage on the other side simultaneously. The pattern of lighting affected needs to be tracked down to zoom in on the location of this problem. I think I get it.... But are you saying that if it is in fact a loose neutral that it could be anywhere in the house? That's a LOT of switches for me to remove and check. What if it turns out that all the flickering lights are on the same circuit (I haven't proven this one way or the other yet)? Does that help support or invalidate the loose neutral theory? Or is such a factoid wholly irrelevant to isolating the problem (if it is in fact a loose neutral)? Really appreciate the help here btw. Thanks!
stusviews Posted February 24, 2015 Posted February 24, 2015 A loose service neutral is unlikely affect the voltage on either leg of the split, single phase electric supply. A loose neutral on a branch circuit will have an effect on only that branch circuit. Otherwise, every GFCI outlet in the home would disconnect if the was a problem on any one circuit. That does not happen. Just think of turning off circuit breakers as a way to map out the electric wiring in your home, something you wanted to do, but didn't get around to doing. It's an opportunity
Techman Posted February 24, 2015 Posted February 24, 2015 For some reason all the lights on the first floor of my home occasionally flicker. Do the lights flicker only when they're dimmed or do they also flicker when they're on at 100%? Which brand of LED bulbs are you using? Are the lights that flicker only LEDs?
fitzpatri8 Posted February 24, 2015 Posted February 24, 2015 The TED power line transmitter units have been implicated in previous cases of bulb flicker. If you don't have any, I won't bother suggesting disabling them as a test.
larryllix Posted February 25, 2015 Posted February 25, 2015 I think I get it.... But are you saying that if it is in fact a loose neutral that it could be anywhere in the house? That's a LOT of switches for me to remove and check. What if it turns out that all the flickering lights are on the same circuit (I haven't proven this one way or the other yet)? Does that help support or invalidate the loose neutral theory? Or is such a factoid wholly irrelevant to isolating the problem (if it is in fact a loose neutral)? Really appreciate the help here btw. Thanks! If lights are flickering ONLY on one circuit branch/breaker then a loose connection, either line or neutral, is suspect on that circuit only. This can be anywhere upstream on that branch circuit from the closest flickering device to the distribution panel, including the breaker or socket itself. Neutral screws are notorious for not being tightened properly by electricians or the copper reforming after few years. Breakers can develop bad contacts also. If lights are flickering on devices on several branch circuits this usually indicates a loose neutral on your whole electrical system, including your connection to the grid somewhere, even at the distribution transformer outside for many utility customers. The neutral is one of the only common points to both lines of your 208/240 volt electrical service. This may be further indicated by lights on the opposite phase of your service flashing brighter. As your devices load down one leg of your system the opposite phase line leg is affected by increasing it's voltage to your house devices. GFCIs are not affected by voltage disturbances or other disturbances not in each unit's (GFCI breaker) protected zone. In each case tis is always loadside of that respective breaker circuit. Current must flow into the branch circuit and not return through the branch circuit breaker via it's (and only it's) neutral. When it returns via defective insulation to ground, or other neutral path, back the distribution panel the GFCI sees the differential and trips. It simply sees the current output sum on hot and neutral. Hot = x amperes and neutral sees =x amperes (returning = -). eg. +5 + -5 = 0 = no trip. This doesn't happen with loose neutrals unless the neutral or circuit is grounded (on the protected branch circuit) and current is finding an improper pathway to return on and one shouldn't affect any other GFCI breakers.
kaplansa Posted March 3, 2015 Author Posted March 3, 2015 Do the lights flicker only when they're dimmed or do they also flicker when they're on at 100%? Which brand of LED bulbs are you using? Are the lights that flicker only LEDs? They flicker when on 100%. I haven't tested whether they flicker when dimmed or not. Would that tell you something or make a difference? I use StarPower BR30 LED (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007SIV8M6/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1) and Philips BR40 LED (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0083GZXZA/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1). For testing I've replaced one of each LED type with an incandescent and the others will still flicker. I haven't replaced all of one brand with incandescents. but I've made them all the same brand and flicker continues. I'm not convinced the LED is actually causing the problem, although I could test this theory more I suppose if you recommend.
Techman Posted March 3, 2015 Posted March 3, 2015 If the incandescent bulb(s) don't flicker but the leds do then the problem is with the LED bulbs you're using which may not be compatible with the Insteon switches. I would try a different brand LED bulb. If you're near a Costco or Home Depot then then try the CREE led bulbs sold at Home Depot or the BR30 led bulbs sold at Costco. Make sure the bulbs you use are dimmable. I have a house full of both brands and haven't had an issue. I originally tried Phillips led bulbs but had issues similar to what you're experiencing.
larryllix Posted July 13, 2015 Posted July 13, 2015 Kaplansa, did you ever solve this? If you quote his/her post it will flag him on his home page like I just did to you. This is an old thread and kaplansa has not participated here since Mar 9, 2015 which you will find by hovering your cursor over his/her name.
r3richard Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 I've been fighting flickering issues with some of my ceiling mount can led bulbs from Home Depot for over a year. Couldn't figure out what the problem was, I added a bridge circuit and repeaters. Thought it might be that the bulbs were three years old? maybe??? Then recently I added a 3way circuit add on (Insteon dimmer switch) that would not work, even tho it indicated that it was working in the admin window. Last nite I had an inspiration--maybe it was because that particular circuit where the 3way was located had an arc fault breaker. I removed the breaker and replaced it with a regular 20 amp breaker. ALL FIXED, including the aforementioned flickering problem that were in a different circuit elsewhere !!! Who knew. isy and arc fault don't mix -- even in spite of a bridge circuit and several repeaters around the house.
Xathros Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 Not sure why a breaker would have that kind of impact. I suspect its more likely that cutting the power to that circuit then restoring it later did a soft reset on an insteon device that was acting up on that circuit. -Xathros
larryllix Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 Perhaps bad contacts in the AFCI breaker but you would think just toggling it a few times would re-wipe the contacts somewhat and fix the problem for awhile. Would be interesting to see the breaker installed somewhere else.
Techman Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 There are numerous articles regarding AFCI technology interfering with some power line signals.
larryllix Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 There are numerous articles regarding AFCI technology interfering with some power line signals. Interfering with the Insteon signals, yes, but Insteon signal comm problems don't make lights flicker. Powerline problems can make the lights flicker and in turn maybe cause some Insteon signal problems but not vice versa. AFCIs could cause both problems but there are two separate problem issues
r3richard Posted July 19, 2015 Posted July 19, 2015 My error--in part removing the AFCI breaker fixed the non communication issue for the 3way. BUT... during this exercise I had also inadvertantly disabled a large bank of strip leds powered by a 12v power supply. When I turned it back on the flickering returned to the overhead led bulbs in the kitchen. Obviously (I think) the power supply is providing too much noise on the house lines or in the air or something; for when I unplug it the flickering goes away. I've tried a filter link in the plug to the wall to no avail. I could use some help as to how best to filter this power supply / led array setup. Or do I need a different not so cheap power supply?
stusviews Posted July 19, 2015 Posted July 19, 2015 An AFI breaker is considerably more costly than a standard breaker. A contractor is unlikely to have one installed if the code did not require it. Replacing an AFI breaker with a standard one presents a risk and may invalidate your home insurance should there be damage, such as a fire. Try a different brand AFI breaker or, if the breaker is more that a few years old, then a newer one of the same brand.
Brian H Posted July 19, 2015 Posted July 19, 2015 This filter is specified to block noise above 4KHz. Not sure if it may help. The FilterLinc is tuned to 120KHz X10 power line frequency. But is wide enough tuned for the 131.65KHz Insteon power line frequency. It comes in a plug in or wired in version. This is the plug in version. http://www.smarthome.com/simply-automated-znf10a-p-noise-filter-and-attenuation-isolator-plug-in.html
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.