Teken Posted March 4, 2015 Posted March 4, 2015 Take one device and select restore device in the admin console. You will need to press the set button and report back. Ideals are peaceful - History is violent
Brian H Posted March 4, 2015 Posted March 4, 2015 Is the Appliancelinc the older 2456S3? If it is. It is power line only and will not respond to the Beacon tests.
Teken Posted March 4, 2015 Posted March 4, 2015 Is the Appliancelinc the older 2456S3? If it is. It is power line only and will not respond to the Beacon tests. He indicated it had the same body type as the smoke bridge. He also noted the RF was turned off by accident so it's safe to assume it's the newer version of the on/off relay. Or how we all call them appliance linc. Ideals are peaceful - History is violent
Brian H Posted March 4, 2015 Posted March 4, 2015 I missed the reference to the Dual Band On/Off module that seems to also be called an ApplianceLinc. Just what we need more confusion. Between models with similar model names and different features. Turning Off the RF could come to bite us where we sit down sometimes. Other times it maybe a good thing.
Newfiestang50 Posted March 4, 2015 Author Posted March 4, 2015 Take one device and select restore device in the admin console. You will need to press the set button and report back. Ideals are peaceful - History is violent Ok did that still nothing. Also tried restore PLM....still nothing. As mentioned, when I function the door sensor I can see that the LED on the Applian module blinks briefly as if its getting the signal but nothing back at the console. Some questions: Why is it that during the tap test I have 3 switchlincs that do not respond at all. I believe someone posted earlier that the beacon test is RF only and not power line. Is it possible that these devices are not seeing the RF signal? Also, do anyone have any idea why none of my programs are working either where there are scenes involved. In other words, if a program is asking an individual light to turn on as well as 3 others that are part of a scene, the individual light will come on but the ones in the scene will not. I know this seems to be a separate issue but all of this happened at the same time so I'm thinking its related. Also, just to add another bit of info, the devices refered to that cant be controlled in the scenes via the program are fully functional from the console or mobile device (Ipad) when asked individually.
Teken Posted March 4, 2015 Posted March 4, 2015 Ok did that still nothing. Also tried restore PLM....still nothing. As mentioned, when I function the door sensor I can see that the LED on the Applian module blinks briefly as if its getting the signal but nothing back at the console. Some questions: Why is it that during the tap test I have 3 switchlincs that do not respond at all. I believe someone posted earlier that the beacon test is RF only and not power line. Is it possible that these devices are not seeing the RF signal? Also, do anyone have any idea why none of my programs are working either where there are scenes involved. In other words, if a program is asking an individual light to turn on as well as 3 others that are part of a scene, the individual light will come on but the ones in the scene will not. I know this seems to be a separate issue but all of this happened at the same time so I'm thinking its related. Also, just to add another bit of info, the devices refered to that cant be controlled in the scenes via the program are fully functional from the console or mobile device (Ipad) when asked individually. If performing the 4 tap beacon test results in the receiver to not acknowledge the transmission. There are really only four scenarios. 1. Not within RF range. Or is on the same electrical single split phase. 2. RF signal is being absorbed, blocked, or deflected. 3. Receiver / sender device is locked up which requires a hard reset. 4. One or more devices are defective. Again, I would ask you to unplug any and all electronic devices in the home and perform the beacon test. The fact your PLM has been restored more than three times with no results means you have something critical missing. If you completely remove, delete, and hard reset just one battery device. Add it back in, reply back how it performs afterwards all the while your Insteon network is confirmed as bridged / coupled. While you do this run a level 3 report and uploaded here for review. I would also run a link compare and see how many are listed in your system. How many Insteon devices are in this home and can you list out all the components with model numbers.
Newfiestang50 Posted March 5, 2015 Author Posted March 5, 2015 Folks, can someone explain the theory of operation of the beacon test. Is it the PLM (transmitter) sending an RF signal out and basically all receiving units (dual band devices) responding and sending a pulse back over power line which in turn is received by the PLM. Is this the method in which the PLM determines which phase the dual band devices are on in the home grid. I'm an instrumentation controls tech but I am having trouble finding info on this test and how it processes the info. Also, I am back offshore now so cant carry on with any real troubleshooting but I am still troubled by my issues and will be going back at this once back home.
Teken Posted March 5, 2015 Posted March 5, 2015 This is strictly a RF test from one to the other. Any dual band device that is capable of initiating the 4 tap beacon test can be used. I asked you to use the PLM because it was convenient to use. You could have used the on/off relay to complete the same test. Ideals are peaceful - History is violent
Xathros Posted March 5, 2015 Posted March 5, 2015 The transmitting device (can be most any dual band device) sends out an RF beacon. Anything that receives the beacon simply blinks it's LED to indicate that it is receiving the beacon. The color (or brightness in the case of while LED's) indicates whether the receiver is on the same or opposite leg as the transmitting device. Thats it. The receivers DO NOT reply back. -Xathros
Newfiestang50 Posted March 5, 2015 Author Posted March 5, 2015 The transmitting device (can be most any dual band device) sends out an RF beacon. Anything that receives the beacon simply blinks it's LED to indicate that it is receiving the beacon. The color (or brightness in the case of while LED's) indicates whether the receiver is on the same or opposite leg as the transmitting device. Thats it. The receivers DO NOT reply back. -Xathros So there must be something encoded in the beacon signiture that either matches or mismatches the receiving devices signiture based on what phase each are installed on electrically.
Brian H Posted March 5, 2015 Posted March 5, 2015 The test may send the RF signal when the AC Inputs is going in a known direction. Like swinging positive. Then the receiver compares the direction of the AC Input when the RF is received. I have an old 2443 V1.0 Access Point. That will indicate same or opposite phase to the same dual band device in the same room. Depending on when it was plugged in. My guess is Zero Crossing detector is flaky.
Newfiestang50 Posted March 5, 2015 Author Posted March 5, 2015 Ok did that still nothing. Also tried restore PLM....still nothing. As mentioned, when I function the door sensor I can see that the LED on the Applian module blinks briefly as if its getting the signal but nothing back at the console. Some questions: Why is it that during the tap test I have 3 switchlincs that do not respond at all. I believe someone posted earlier that the beacon test is RF only and not power line. Is it possible that these devices are not seeing the RF signal? Also, do anyone have any idea why none of my programs are working either where there are scenes involved. In other words, if a program is asking an individual light to turn on as well as 3 others that are part of a scene, the individual light will come on but the ones in the scene will not. I know this seems to be a separate issue but all of this happened at the same time so I'm thinking its related. Also, just to add another bit of info, the devices refered to that cant be controlled in the scenes via the program are fully functional from the console or mobile device (Ipad) when asked individually. Anyone have any ideas why my programs and scenes are not working as explained above.
Xathros Posted March 6, 2015 Posted March 6, 2015 Anyone have any ideas why my programs and scenes are not working as explained above. not yet but we are working on it as we move through these diagnostic steps. Next I would like to have you do the following: Tools / Diagnostics / Show PLM Links table. When the display is complete, click the count button. Do this 3 or four times. We are looking for an accurate count. If the PLM receives any insteon traffic during the link dump, it will throw off the count, hence the reason for multiple runs. Once you receive the same count several times, post the result. How many devices do you have registered in the ISY admin interface? -Xathros
Newfiestang50 Posted March 6, 2015 Author Posted March 6, 2015 I will perform the above request once back home. Also, to help everyone get a better idea of my system please see attached list of items installed in my system. I'm sure its very small compared to some systems but I figured it was a good starting point however if I cant get the issues resolved I dont think I will be expanding.
Newfiestang50 Posted March 30, 2015 Author Posted March 30, 2015 not yet but we are working on it as we move through these diagnostic steps. Next I would like to have you do the following: Tools / Diagnostics / Show PLM Links table. When the display is complete, click the count button. Do this 3 or four times. We are looking for an accurate count. If the PLM receives any insteon traffic during the link dump, it will throw off the count, hence the reason for multiple runs. Once you receive the same count several times, post the result. How many devices do you have registered in the ISY admin interface? -Xathros Ok did the above 4 times, each time report counted 14. Also, since I last looked at the system 3 weeks ago the programs now run the "If" & "then" but dont seem to run the "Else" to turn off the scenes.
LeeG Posted March 30, 2015 Posted March 30, 2015 The PLM has no Responder links (those that start with A2) so it cannot receive messages from any device that the device initiated. The PLM has Controller links only. The ISY can send commands to devices and receive an ACK in response but a message initiated by pressing a device button/paddle, opening/closing a door with the Hidden Door Sensor, a Motion message,etc cannot be reacted to by the PLM/ISY. Suggest deleting a device such as the Hidden Door Sensor, adding it back to the ISY to see if the PLM Link Table now has multiple A2 link records for the Hidden Door Sensor. What does Help | About show for Firmware, what for UI?
Teken Posted March 30, 2015 Posted March 30, 2015 The PLM has no Responder links (those that start with A2) so it cannot receive messages from any device that the device initiated. The PLM has Controller links only. The ISY can send commands to devices and receive an ACK in response but a message initiated by pressing a device button/paddle, opening/closing a door with the Hidden Door Sensor, a Motion message,etc cannot be reacted to by the PLM/ISY. Suggest deleting a device such as the Hidden Door Sensor, adding it back to the ISY to see if the PLM Link Table now has multiple A2 link records for the Hidden Door Sensor. What does Help | About show for Firmware, what for UI? Bolded in red was asked several times but was never done. As stated also proper coupling / bridging must be present and validated to be in the home. To date I have no confidence this is being done and being maintained. Coupled with the fact none of the electronic gear is being unplugged as a quick and easy trouble shooting method to determine what noise makers / signal suckers are present! Its safe to say all of the relevant information to complete every task has been provided by the community. Its up to the OP to follow through and understand EACH step must be followed to be successful. This has been an exercise in futility to say the least . . .
Newfiestang50 Posted March 30, 2015 Author Posted March 30, 2015 Bolded in red was asked several times but was never done. As stated also proper coupling / bridging must be present and validated to be in the home. To date I have no confidence this is being done and being maintained. Coupled with the fact none of the electronic gear is being unplugged as a quick and easy trouble shooting method to determine what noise makers / signal suckers are present! Its safe to say all of the relevant information to complete every task has been provided by the community. Its up to the OP to follow through and understand EACH step must be followed to be successful. This has been an exercise in futility to say the least . . . WOW......HARSH. Sorry if I missed a few things here and if asked a few to many questions. I have been away at work for 3 weeks with no access to my system. I am a controls tech as well and I am just challenged by some of the technology and troubleshooting methods. I am just trying to learn as I go. As I mentioned before, there has been nothing added to my home since this system was installed thus some of the things you guys are asking here just dont seem to make sense. Its not that I dont appreciate the help because I sure do. I've also asked several questions here that no one has attempted to answer....." why is it that I can turn devices ON and OFF but my scenes with the same devices in them will not work in conjunction with a program" Now, just to be clear, you just want me to delete a wireless device and re-add it again then run the same log to see if I get "A2" in any of the line items......correct. THanks
Teken Posted March 30, 2015 Posted March 30, 2015 That is correct. Let's be clear, we all want you to be successful in resolving these issues. It comes down to completing one task at a time and reporting back success / failure. Going around about other related issues which more than likely are linked to one another is why a direct answer is not forthcoming. Understood? Ideals are peaceful - History is violent
Newfiestang50 Posted March 30, 2015 Author Posted March 30, 2015 Ok, deleted and added one of my hidden door sensors. I now have 17 counts (ran table 4 times) with the last 3 lines starting with A2. See below.
LeeG Posted March 30, 2015 Posted March 30, 2015 That means the devices can be deleted and added back to correct the situation.
Newfiestang50 Posted March 30, 2015 Author Posted March 30, 2015 That means the devices can be deleted and added back to correct the situation. OK.....which tells us what?
Newfiestang50 Posted March 30, 2015 Author Posted March 30, 2015 Something new happening now. When I turn on or off a device from the console I get the cannot communicate message and the device dont respond but once I acknowledge the message the device then responds to the original command sent.
Teken Posted March 31, 2015 Posted March 31, 2015 Something new happening now. When I turn on or off a device from the console I get the cannot communicate message and the device dont respond but once I acknowledge the message the device then responds to the original command sent. I am going to refer you to the two items still remaining for you to complete, confirm, and do. 1. Coupling / Bridging 2. Unplug all of this electrical gear and report back the outcome. Ideals are peaceful - History is violent
LeeG Posted March 31, 2015 Posted March 31, 2015 "OK.....which tells us what?" It means the PLM does not have the required Responder (A2.......) link records. It means that the restores does not fix the problem. It means some action taken on your end wiped out the PLM Responder link records, otherwise a Restore Device would correct the PLM. It means that a normal device add works as it should as the required Responder link records are created. With none of the questions answered about things like Firmware and UI levels it is hard to guess the steps taken on your end. Maybe a Delete Modem (PLM) with some restores done after that restored the Controller links in the PLM that was deleted but did not restore the Responder links that would not be required when the PLM was deleted. All guess work. Delete and add each device. The Hidden Door Sensor delete and add verified the ISY is working because the required Responder links were created.
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