Your direct experience with spray foam insulation

[paulbates]

I'm looking for feedback from forum members with direct experience with 2 part, low pressure spray foam insulation. There is some uniqueness to my project:

 

The original part of my house is a brick colonial with plaster lath. It was originally insulated with cotton, which has pretty much disintegrated. From monitoring HVAC run-times, I know that considerable (sometimes 2x) energy is going into this part of the house compared to its newer addition of about the same size. Extreme temperatures and wind are consistent with the run-times increasing dramatically. That attic has already been addressed with new insulation, venting and a temperature automated 30" gable fan.

 

I have a case for insulating. I'm looking at having the 2 part low pressure spray foam injected behind the plaster lath by a contractor. I've looked online and already have reviewed the advantages and dangers, I'm looking for first hand experience from those that have lived it.

 

I've started shopping contractors and looking for first hand stories to get the customer side of it. If you have used 2 part low pressure spray foam in your homes, and especially those that had it injected behind plaster:

• What did you do that worked?
• What would you do different if you had do it again and why?

 

Thanks,

 

Paul

[Teken]

Two people I know had this done but it was closed cell foam and not the open cell variety. Key things is thin applications at the (correct temperatures) failure to adhere to this simple and basic principle will cause improper curing and off gassing.

 

This off gassing is permanent and smells like fish.

 

Keep in mind this applies to even the so called biodegradable types which is based on soya. The off gassing is absolutely dangerous and can kill you and cause unknown health risks.

 

Applying too much layers with out the wait time will cause (chunking) which is not apparent until approx 30-90 days after the install. Who ever you get make sure you read their contract which should state you must be vacant from the property for 24-72 hours and not be in the home.

 

You should also read what their warranty covers and how that is determined. You will be hard pressed to read any fine print about remedial process in case of a failed spray application.

 

Meaning, if they screwed up they really have no SOP to remove the spray foam. The process in the end is literally removing all framing structures because the time and expense to cut out and scrape spray foam is almost impossible. It goes with out saying you better be sure no other wiring or structural changes are in the future.

 

Because it won't happen later on, period.

[paulbates]

Thanks Teken. I saw the Canada based news show on that. It's a hard call because all but a few go right. But it's ugly if it goes wrong

 

 

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[Teken]

Thanks Teken. I saw the Canada based news show on that. It's a hard call because all but a few go right. But it's ugly if it goes wrong

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

So very true and I am sure you already know to do this.

 

1. Inquire how many homes a company has done in your area.

2. Are they in good standing with the BBB.

3. Ask for references that were just done and go down and talk to the folks.

4. Verify what the company is bonded and insured for.

5. Get it in writing as to what happens and who is responsible for a bad install.

[paulbates]

Teken

 

Yep. I have a spreadsheet where I document the encounters and how each contractor behaved / consulted. Part of the decision is on how consultative they are. Today I have had two calls already:

 

- One wanted to tell me he can do it, and how he and his sons work out of their garage and is sure his price will be best.

- The other one listened, but proceeded to gather information from me about the house (age, construction, etc) and then ask additional questions and suggested a number of other things to think about. He is certified for low pressure foam but highly recommend cellulose instead. I appreciate that... listen to me, but test the heck out of my assumptions.

 

I went through a similar 'score card' process with HVAC vendors with new furnaces last fall. I tracked and scored each contractor based on a number of criteria. I'm more swayed to those that used fact based investigation and guide the discussion with q & a. Lower price is a factor, but not the only factor.

 

It really pays to to talk to 5 or 6 contractors. I picked an HVAC vendor who wasn't the cheapest. The cheapest didn't listen or have time for my questions. Actually held his hand up to stop me when I wanted to ask something... He told me I needed a single stage, I think because he knew I was "shopping". Told me great stories of why Dave Lennox was a cool guy even back in the day. He wrote up and quoted something less than I wanted... so of course it was the cheapest.

 

But then as he left, after not listening, dumped it back on me saying "if you don't want this, call me and let me know what you do want and I'll write it up". Great! Guess what? NO. It was a nice fall day and he wanted to get to golfing, so I let him.

 

The selected vendor listened to me and spent time making sure we were all doing the right thing. He was flexible with me providing the T5900s.. had tried it himself earlier in the year and understood it. I had his guys run the wire (you probably remember that discussion, you recommended that the contractor do it). I have no regrets at all and feel great about a big decision. Always a little more than you want, but it has to be done right the first time, like insulation.

 

I agree on finding real testimonials. Also hadn't thought about a BBB scoring, that's an easy one to do. Thanks

 

Paul

[Teken]

I think the pro's vs con's should be stated for those who are following. I am sure there are a few more but these were some of the most common that came top of mind.

 

SPRAY FOAM PRO'S:

 

1. High R Value per inch when compared to traditional batt or blown in insulation.

2. Increase structural rigidity of the home.

3. Reduced noise penetration from out side of the structure.

4. Acts like a vapour barrier and does not require added poly sheeting.

5. Seals 100% around all none conforming materials and structures.

6. Is water, mildew, mould, pest resistant.

 

SPRAY FOAM CON'S:

 

1. High cost when compared to traditional batt or blown in insulation.

2. Extremely flammable and must be covered.

3. Retrofits can not be done with out damaging insulation.

4. Potential for off gassing if not properly installed per application and temperature allowances. 

5. Depending upon type, brand, chemistry spray foam is not UV stable.

 

I believe given your past experience in the HVAC department you will ultimately find a good solution and vendor to complete the task. It never ceases to surprise me when speaking to so called Pro's how many of them simply want to blow you off?

 

I always have to shake my head when I deal with these people who indicate they have been doing this for *ages*. Yet don't feel compelled to share some of that long time knowledge or skills to those inquiring about the same???

 

Half of them are just scam artists with a license that says they past a test with XXX hours. The other quarter are those who should never be customer facing in any aspect what so ever. Sometimes its hard to find a technician who is not only down to earth but factual about the pro's & con's.

 

While others are always there for the *Up Sell* . . .

 

Back on topic: If you decide to go with blown in cellulose be mindful that installation is key. Because there is a huge margin for pockets and voids. Along with the material settling if not properly packed and dispersed. 

[chrishick]

I wonder if it would be a good idea to require an IR scan as part of the contract to check for pockets and voids?

[Teken]

I wonder if it would be a good idea to require an IR scan as part of the contract to check for pockets and voids?

I think that is an excellent idea. But the reality is not very many people own such thermo imaging tools.

 

There are several different types of blown in insulation that have come out over the years. One has some kind of mastic adhesive which bonds the insulation together.

 

Once blown on to a wall the tech uses what looks like a roller to trim back any excess material it's flush with the framing.

 

One is called spider something?

 

 

Ideals are peaceful - History is violent

[paulbates]

I wonder if it would be a good idea to require an IR scan as part of the contract to check for pockets and voids?

 

Interesting and timely comment. One of the contractors Iinterviewed today is giving my home a laser based energy analysis (?). I'm all for tools, but not sure how it will work...However I will find out tomorrow!

[Teken]

Interesting and timely comment. One of the contractors Iinterviewed today is giving my home a laser based energy analysis (?). I'm all for tools, but not sure how it will work...However I will find out tomorrow!

 

The device has a little LCD screen that shows hot / cold spots in various colours. I have a Fluke model which has served me well over the years. The most amazing time to capture these thermal differences is when its extremely hot / cold. Consideration should be taken when the HVAC is in operation because it will skew the IR Thermo gun from capturing the true temperature variances.

 

Key areas are in the attic, sill plate, and any penetration point into the home. I don't know how cold / hot it gets in your area but in Canada any pipe, duct, vent, that leads to the outside is covered in insulation.

 

Depending upon which one it is it can be insulated 3' in, to the entire run. If the company also has a blower door test rig available they can tell you how many air exchanges per hour your house does.

[paulbates]

Interesting. There is about a 30 degree delta inside vs out right now using the furnace.

 

It gets below zero, to minus 20F in the winter and can get over 100F in the summer. I've been talked in to look at the attic again even though it was addressed 15 years ago. However the walls on the old part of the house have nothing. I worked behind a number of outlets, and there is nothing but air in there.

 

Thanks Teken

 

Paul

[Teken]

Interesting. There is about a 30 degree delta inside vs out right now using the furnace.

 

It gets below zero, to minus 20F in the winter and can get over 100F in the summer. I've been talked in to look at the attic again even though it was addressed 15 years ago. However the walls on the old part of the house have nothing. I worked behind a number of outlets, and there is nothing but air in there.

 

Thanks Teken

 

Paul

 

As a data point what R value is considered acceptable in your region? Newer homes in my area are insulated to R50 as the default value now.

 

I truly believe if you're financially able to add more to the attic space at this time you will see huge gains. This summer I may very well add in another R30 to my attic for a total of R80.

 

This is something you're simply only going to do once and its something that will return savings during the life of the home occupancy.

[paulbates]

Teken

 

There are a mix of homes here in Dearborn, some are historic Ford District homes from the early 1900's that have to be kept a certain way. Some brick homes like mine, from a big development boom in the 40's and 50's..., plus some new and rebuilds. As a result there is not a single standard, its more what you can do with what you have. My attic also has planks for storage, like Christmas stuff and old records, etc. so I'm asking the contractors how to deal with that.

 

I did determine that there was not cotton the walls as I believed earlier. I found cotton in the attic when I moved in. By poking around behind outlets this week, I found nothing, zero, between inside walls and outside walls.

 

Something has to go in, now its a matter of what material, and is it installed from the inside or the outside. Getting varied suggestions from the contractors on that.

 

I didn't expect this to be as involved as the HVAC project last fall, but from a shopping perspective its getting close...

 

Paul

[Teken]

Teken

 

There are a mix of homes here in Dearborn, some are historic Ford District homes from the early 1900's that have to be kept a certain way. Some brick homes like mine, from a big development boom in the 40's and 50's..., plus some new and rebuilds. As a result there is not a single standard, its more what you can do with what you have. My attic also has planks for storage, like Christmas stuff and old records, etc. so I'm asking the contractors how to deal with that.

 

I did determine that there was not cotton the walls as I believed earlier. I found cotton in the attic when I moved in. By poking around behind outlets this week, I found nothing, zero, between inside walls and outside walls.

 

Something has to go in, now its a matter of what material, and is it installed from the inside or the outside. Getting varied suggestions from the contractors on that.

 

I didn't expect this to be as involved as the HVAC project last fall, but from a shopping perspective its getting close...

 

Paul

 

But how many inches of insulation is in the roof / attic now? Also, not every wall in your home has no insulation does it? If so I can't even imagine what the heating / cooling bill would look like!  

[paulbates]

Yeh.... Unfortunately the 3 walls on the original structure, facing away from the addition, have air in them. That part of the home is brick, with plaster lath interior walls. Not good on any front. It explains why a prior owner put in 2 identical HVAC units for the original and new structure... identical except the unit for the original side was 20k BTU bigger for about the same sq    I had this insulation project in mind, so when I replaced the HVAC units last fall, I matched them to the same (lower) rating.

 

The furnace for the original side worked hard this winter, but once the insulation project is done, we'll be in good shape.

 

I'm getting some varied responses from contractors on what to use, I will post once a decision is reached.

[paulbates]

After getting evaluations from 5 contractors, input from this thread and a scientific source, I decided to go cellulose instead of tripolymer foam for my particular application, which is hidden between plaster lath inside and mostly brick outside walls. 

 

These things contributed to that decision:

• A lot is known about cellulose including 3rd party analysis on its content and characteristics
• I was not able to get compete enough knowledge of the contents of injected tripolymer foam.  Its a complex chemical equation including phenol, which is extremely toxic.
• Disconnects between marketing materials from the manufacturers saying its safe, and the small amount of objective, 3rd party analysis.
• There are a lot of great success stories, and there are a few horror stories. If I happen get a bad batch of foam or it doesn't go in right, its stuck behind brick and plaster lath on steel mesh in 50% of my house. Someone in my family could react badly to it, for reasons we we'll never know. What then?
• While the performance claims are higher, its more expensive.

As a result, it comes down to contractor A's word vs contractor B's word. I've learned not to go there. The explanation I got about foam had truth in it, but a lot was left out that I had to find for myself, and I'm still not 100% clear on it. I called the manufacturer of the foam that was proposed by one contractor, left a message asking about chemical make up, phenol and post installation studies on the effect on occupants? No answer.

 

As a last step, I asked my cousin who is a chemical engineer and materials scientist for the EPA/DOE. I sent him all the relevant information on foam I could find. He reviewed it, and provided additional references (below). Did he recommend it? His answer was not a solid "no"; it was that he didn't really know for sure. I asked him would he do it in my situation, he said "No".

 

His concerns; the chemicals have to be handled exactly right from manufacturing, a limited safe shelf life to install, and had to be installed correctly. A longer chain of which a single link could break the successful installation. Also, different people respond differently to chemical presence after the install. If I went foam, and the family had a reaction, it can't be undone without performing surgery on my house.

 

I'm not saying foam is unilaterally a bad choice, in this case there is just to much unknown for my requirements. For spraying in rafters and new construction, I would feel differently because its done in phases, and can be evaluated before covering things up. For between existing walls and not taking down either side, I am not willing to accept the small probability that it could go bad, because removing it would be a disaster.

 

My links

The recommend company's marketing sheet (Phenol is identified directly):

http://www.foammywalls.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Tripolymer-bifold-commercial.pdf

Third party green builder review.

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/guest-blogs/insulating-stud-cavities-existing-homes

 

My cousin's links. Again, focusing on the risks, a lot of unknowns

http://energy.ces.ncsu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/technical_brief_spf.pdf

http://www.epa.gov/oppt/spf/spray_polyurethane_foam.html

[Teken]

 

After getting evaluations from 5 contractors, input from this thread and a scientific source, I decided to go cellulose instead of tripolymer foam for my particular application, which is hidden between plaster lath inside and mostly brick outside walls. 

 

These things contributed to that decision:

• A lot is known about cellulose including 3rd party analysis on its content and characteristics
• I was not able to get compete enough knowledge of the contents of injected tripolymer foam.  Its a complex chemical equation including phenol, which is extremely toxic.
• Disconnects between marketing materials from the manufacturers saying its safe, and the small amount of objective, 3rd party analysis.
• There are a lot of great success stories, and there are a few horror stories. If I happen get a bad batch of foam or it doesn't go in right, its stuck behind brick and plaster lath on steel mesh in 50% of my house. Someone in my family could react badly to it, for reasons we we'll never know. What then?
• While the performance claims are higher, its more expensive.

As a result, it comes down to contractor A's word vs contractor B's word. I've learned not to go there. The explanation I got about foam had truth in it, but a lot was left out that I had to find for myself, and I'm still not 100% clear on it. I called the manufacturer of the foam that was proposed by one contractor, left a message asking about chemical make up, phenol and post installation studies on the effect on occupants? No answer.

 

As a last step, I asked my cousin who is a chemical engineer and materials scientist for the EPA/DOE. I sent him all the relevant information on foam I could find. He reviewed it, and provided additional references (below). Did he recommend it? His answer was not a solid "no"; it was that he didn't really know for sure. I asked him would he do it in my situation, he said "No".

 

His concerns; the chemicals have to be handled exactly right from manufacturing, a limited safe shelf life to install, and had to be installed correctly. A longer chain of which a single link could break the successful installation. Also, different people respond differently to chemical presence after the install. If I went foam, and the family had a reaction, it can't be undone without performing surgery on my house.

 

I'm not saying foam is unilaterally a bad choice, in this case there is just to much unknown for my requirements. For spraying in rafters and new construction, I would feel differently because its done in phases, and can be evaluated before covering things up. For between existing walls and not taking down either side, I am not willing to accept the small probability that it could go bad, because removing it would be a disaster.

 

My links

The recommend company's marketing sheet (Phenol is identified directly):

http://www.foammywalls.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Tripolymer-bifold-commercial.pdf

Third party green builder review.

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/guest-blogs/insulating-stud-cavities-existing-homes

 

My cousin's links. Again, focusing on the risks, a lot of unknowns

http://energy.ces.ncsu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/technical_brief_spf.pdf

http://www.epa.gov/oppt/spf/spray_polyurethane_foam.html

 

 

I believe you made a very reasonable decision weighing out the pro's and con's on factual information you were able to glean across the board. As stated there are tens of millions of installation using various spray foam technology. I would say the vast majority go off very well as expected.

 

The small minority that don't can cause untold financial loss and health related issues.

 

With the current cellulose technology being used by the current insulation firms you're assured of a known quantity. The only draw back to blown in cellulose is larger settling factor when compared to fibreglass. They retain moisture longer when compared to fibreglass.

 

Lastly, once the insulation has been saturated over time the *slumping* will not return. Fibreglass is also cheaper when compared to cellulose insulation.

 

The major wins for *current* cellulose insulation is the greater rejection of thermal conductivity. It also has a much higher burn rate when compared to fibreglass. Pests and rodents do not like newer cellulose insulation products. 

 

Cellulose is not recommended in areas prone to high humidity like FL, TX, CA, AL, etc

 

As over time when high humidity rates are seen during the course of years the *slumping* effect will progressively take place and it (insulation) will not rebound thus causing a loss in R value. This is why (ANY) insulation must be applied XX % above the required R value.

 

ie. If you're seeking a R20 factor, the installer will shoot / spray for R21.5 / R22 to compensate for any potential settling / slumping.  

[lilyoyo1]

A friend of mine recently re-modeled his house and used spray foam. It was expensive but well worth it in the end. While some things can be attributed to new materials in general, the house itself seems much quieter, he talks about how his hvac does not run as often, etc. Pretty much all the pro's to spray foam he is experiencing. If you are in an area that gets really hot/cold, i think it is worth it. Like everyone said though, it must be done right.

[paulbates]

I agree that foam is a incredible insulator and I would be in a different place if this were a major remodel with financing, walls were coming down anyway and we were moving out of the affected area for the construction. None of that is true for this project. 

 

I think the worth part of it is based on the situation. There is a counterbalance to the highest performance materials, which is cost and benefit. With cellulose, I spend a lot less installing it, and go from nothing to very good insulation; cost will be one time and low, and return will be high. I'll see a lot of improvement with less investment and it will pay itself off in reduced energy bills quickly, I'm predicting in a few years time.

 

Foam is a lot more for me to retro install. I'd borrow money and be paying back a loan and interest, while watching for lower energy bills.

[paulbates]

This is a follow up to this thread. I had cellulose insulation blown in the old (South) part of my house this spring, and the results from the first day with the heaters on is pretty impressive compared to last year.

 

The runtime for the south part of the house was normally 2x of the north part of the house, even more in the really cold snaps, Its now about 1/2x of the North's runtime. I never got results anything like this last year. The other interesting note is that the wind was out of the south last night due to hurricane joaquin. Southerly winds usually made things worse for measurements on the south part of the house last winter. 

 

New     Old (mid last winter)   

 

 

The insulation included the walls, attic and also foam blown around the foundation headers and joists to cut leakage.. The heat bills will be the final verdict, but early measurements are encouraging. 

 

I appreciate the help, conversation and advice I get on this forum, in this case Teken on energy/insulation and io_guy on venstar/venlink.

 

Paul

[larryllix]

I am not familiar with the chemistry of foam but I have a friend involved in a half a $billion class action suit. He installed a formaldehyde product in about 5000 homes after getting complete approval from government bodies on the product as completely safe.

 

Now there is no problem with the foam for human safety and it has not become a problem. The problem is after owners got freaked out by some lawyers the government pulled the approval of the product and he is on the hook for future loss of potential value for the homes involved.  The whole case is based on a public stigma from Urea Formaldehyde installations years back.

 

In conclusion my point is that even though a product is deemed safe and maybe is, public stigma could nail you hard when you go to sell.

 

With no vapour barrier two things will happen.

  The foam would seal your home very well and the vapours will have a captive audience without an HRV system to bring in fresh air.

  The foam would seal your home very well  and you will need an HRV system to bring in fresh air.

When we turn out off we don't feel well after a few days. We have no sprayed foam other than window/door seals but I sealed this place within and inch of my life. Heating about $600 per year, north of you.

 

If you have knob and tube wiring you may have some other things to consider when it bridges the conductors with a material that can retain moisture.

 

As far as the thermal scope goes, my son bought one and charges more than it cost for every scan and report. He is tooted as  the  lowest cost around to have this service done. Also no contractors will give an appraisal of the results. Here are the pictures you paid for. Do what you want with them.

 

If you don't have brick you could consider having insulation placed from the outside as an added later or installed with more visual precision.

[jerlands]

Another consideration when injecting or pouring is "rate of expansion" and insuring adequate ventilation for the trapped air to escape else you'll pop your plaster out from the lath.  Also, whomever does the installation you should get a guarantee for 100% remediation in case of any issue or failure.  A product I've been interested in but haven't any direct exposure to is Isynene's water blown foam.  A little pricier but possibly worth it.

 

 

Jon...

[jerlands]

 

Now there is no problem with the foam for human safety and it has not become a problem. The problem is after owners got freaked out by some lawyers the government pulled the approval of the product and he is on the hook for future loss of potential value for the homes involved.  The whole case is based on a public stigma from Urea Formaldehyde installations years back.

 

I'd have to disagree.. if spray (expanding) foam is either improperly mixed (typically done in the gun) or applied during high/low temperatures it will never cure properly and continue to off gas, possibly indefinitely.

 

 

Jon...

[paulbates]

Concern about that, and cost, was how I ended up with cellulose. In researching it, it looked like there is a very high number of successful installaitons, and a few failures do to improper mixtures from the plant or installation problems. A lot of those failures make the house unlivable. The remediation for that is pulling the plaster down and removing it all.

 

My project was insulating behind plaster lath, so even a small percentage is risk was too much risk for me.. Foam also can shink over time.

 

Cellulose gave me extremely good results and the cost was also a lot more affordable.

[jerlands]

As a data point what R value is considered acceptable in your region? Newer homes in my area are insulated to R50 as the default value now.

 

I truly believe if you're financially able to add more to the attic space at this time you will see huge gains. This summer I may very well add in another R30 to my attic for a total of R80.

 

This is something you're simply only going to do once and its something that will return savings during the life of the home occupancy.

 

Years ago I read a study that stated 90% of heat transfer was stopped in each layer of R-8.  It was all base on a temperature difference of like 60 degrees F .  This meant that for two layers of R-8 (R-16) there was a 99% effective barrier to heat flow.  I recall it not considering air leakage but the point was to illustrate price/performance.  Wish I could reference that thing now...

 

 

Jon...