Switches dying all over the place.

[jhimmel]

Came home a couple of weeks ago and one of my switches had gone dark. The LED's were not lit, and it would not control the load locally or through the ISY. The only thing I could get out of it was if I pushed the set (air-gap) button inward, I would get a glow out of the LED. Air-gapping and resetting the switch did not help. Removing it from power and trying again did not help. I replaced the switch.

 

Yesterday I came home and found three more switches in the same black state. I thought maybe a power surge had damaged them, although I saw no other evidence of a power glitch during that day. I ordered replacements. One of the switches was in a critical location, so I took a switch from a less needed location and moved it there.

 

Today I came home to two more black switches, and one of them is the one that I moved yesterday. Mind you some of these are on completely different circuits.

 

All of them are V2 dimmers.

 

Does anyone have any idea what in the world might be happening to these switches?

 

My wife is fed up with Insteon, and so am I. I have poured good money after bad, and although it kills me to come to the realization that all of that money was wasted and that I should just throw it all in the garbage, I don't know what else to do.

 

I spent an hour yesterday rearranging switches and reconfiguring the ISY just so I could turn on my kitchen lights, and now my kitchen is dark again. When my wife gets home, she's going to look at me like I am an idiot (she would never actually say that) and tell me that I should get rid of this garbage. I have already replaced over 35 (!) of my originally purchased switches - mostly for the infamous paddle-failure. It never ends.

 

Jim H.

[Sub-Routine]

That doesn't sound good. Have you called Smarthome? IIRC they are replacing LampLincs that exhibit this behavior. How old are these switches?

 

Rand

[jhimmel]

I haven't spoken to Smarthome yet. I don't expect much help from them, but will call them when I have time.

 

The switches vary in age. Some older, some very recent replacements.

 

Jim H.

[MikeB]

Even if you have older switches that are more prone to failure, it seems beyond odd that so many are failing in such a short period of time. Do you have any way of checking the voltage coming in to your house? Maybe a SmartUPS or Kill-A-Watt or something similar?

[jhimmel]

Lost another one by the time I got home yesterday, and a keypadlinc went dead as I used a remotelinc last night that is linked to it.

 

I don't have something to test the exact voltage, although I have not had any problems with any other electronic equipment.

 

My ISY is new, a refurb, and has not been without it's problems (no time to go into it at the moment), so I unplugged it to see what happens today. I realize it is an extreme long-shot that the ISY has anything to do with this, but I have to start somewhere.

 

Jim H.

[bpwwer]

Both of my keypadlinc have occasionally gone dark. In some cases, quickly air-gaping would work. A few times I've had to air-gap the device let it sit that way for a few minutes and then un-gap it.

 

So far I've only had this happen with keypadlincs and they are fairly old ones at that.

[MikeB]

I've had that with old KPLs as well. All newer ones are extremely stable - with one exception.

 

Not to hijack this thread, but I have 1 KPL with no load attached (though it is ganged with 2 other Insteon devices) that occasionally will have its brighness dimmed. It operates fine, but the brightness of its LEDs is dimmer than normal. Simply pulling the air gap for 10 seconds fixes it.

 

I've replaced the KPL thinking it was defective, but the problem still occurs at the same location!

 

Very strange... anyone seen anything similar?

[jamesx0]

I have the same issue with one of my keypads. It is the only keypad that is both ganged with another switch and not attached to a load. I fix the problem by simultaneously pressing buttons C & F. I have no idea what is causing this problem.

[Brignolo]

This sounds very much like a (high) voltage issue.

 

Before posting this I checked on line for recording volt meters. The are very expensive.

 

If you can, continually measure your voltage throughout the day. Make a record. Of course this method is fallible due to a damaging voltage spike of only a millisecond will take out your devices.

 

If you notice ANY type of voltage issues (high or low) contact the division of your eletric company who deals with voltage interference. This department loves to deal with issues like this.

 

With the aging infrastructure of our electrical tranmission and distribution systems, most utiltiy companies are replacing lines and transformers. Mistakes are made, you may be recipient of one of them.

 

Let us know what happens next.

[jhimmel]

Update -

Lost another switch today - this rules out the ISY.

I stuck my multimeter in a socket and the voltage was a steady 120. However, as you mention, I would need continuous testing to look for spikes.

 

Jim H.

[IndyMike]

Jim,

 

Call your power company and explain that you've been loosing devices over an extended period of time. If they haven't already received complaints from your neighbors, they should put a line monitor (basically a chart recorder) on your power input.

 

I don't want to sound like an alarmist, but -

I saw your post over at techmall - this is not a normal "resettable" problem and you have far more at stake than just your Insteon (sizable) investment. If you have expensive equipment that is unprotected from surges, consider adding suppressors ASAP.

[DatAsia]

MASSIVE UNEXPLAINED FAILURE IN FLORIDA - 7 DIMMERS + 1 KEYPAD + PLM

I just spent about 5 hours with an electrician and with UD tech support repairing my system due to a similar situation. This is a new system I installed in a spec home in June.

 

The system has 22 dimmers, 3 keypads + 1 remotelink. It worked flawlessly for the three months that includes the worst weather of the year (hurricane and storm season July-Sept).

 

No problems. The weather was perfect for weeks then all of a sudden the failures began. 7 dimmers, 1 keypad, 1 PLM. No electrical problems in house, no storms, no problems with my 2 flat screen TVs, 3 computers, stereo, etc. Not ONE lightbulb has burned out. I also have a state of the art surge suppressor on my entire house.

 

As j said, when they failed I simply couldn't control or reset my devices...only get the single LED pushing in the reset tab. Smarthome tech support was excellent as always and offered an exchange immediately.

 

The tech said that they were getting a lot of failures in Florida and that "the electricity there is very dirty." I told him about my household surge unit and he said "that only protects my lines from an enormous surge. Small fluctuations in power aren't filtered."

 

I said I thought that these Insteon dimmers were supposed to add additional surge protection...especially with 25 of 'em in a small house!

 

He said that perhaps the "resistors were weakened by constant fluctuations due to the rough power in FL."

 

YIKES? Are these things built for the real world or for some test lab with filtered power? Like I said, I haven't had ao much as a lightbulb burn out lately.

 

So after reinstalling all the devices it was time to reset my UD 99i. HOURS of work due to my various scenes with multiple devices.

 

Had a long talk with my electrician at the end of the evening. Obviously for a third party installer, events like this would be a nightmare. There is a serious problem with the Insteon devices. I hope they can beef up their dimmers and switches or we ALL have a big problem on our hands.

[madcodger]

I spent two years going through switches, come of which SH replaced, and others they did not. I had some that were dead out of the box, and the early Icons were especially bad. Of course, the other problem came from the junk "micro switches" that caused mechanical paddle failures. I'm still dealing with that.

 

As for "dirty power", that explanation is full of holes. Many of us with this HA hobby have homes FULL of expensive electronics, and we don't find our receivers, TVs, satellite systems, DVRs, etc., dropping like flies in winter, do we? As someone else noted, if a switch isn't built to handle routine fluctuations in power (the type that all electrical systems experience, and that DON'T knock out anything else in the house), then that says something about the equipment being damaged, doesn't it?

[Brignolo]

As someone else noted, if a switch isn't built to handle routine fluctuations in power (the type that all electrical systems experience, and that DON'T knock out anything else in the house), then that says something about the equipment being damaged, doesn't it?

 

I completely agree with everything posted in this thread. I would enjoy a more robust set of Insteon devices as well. The question is, would we be willing to pay more for "bullet proof" devices? I'm sure the quality vs. price point issues is considered by daily by the SH management. Would I have put 52 SwitchLincs in my home if they were $65.99 instead of $45.99? Probably not. (Btw, I'm neither supporting or condemning SH in this post.)

 

I believe SH should take responsibility for these issues and I believe they will...eventually. In the meantime we need to isolate and fix this problem. How to do that eludes me at the moment.

 

Just out of cuiosity, did anyone have a 1000 watt dimmer fail under these circumstances? (I don't own one...yet.)

 

Keep me posted (No pun intended)

 

Joe

[rowland]

Every Insteon device has a "power supply" that converts the 110 VAC to a low voltage DC supply that is used to run the internal logic of the device. From what I've observed and read about other people's observations I suspect this power supply passes on all kinds of problems in the 110 VAC that the power supplies in TVs, stereos, etc. do not pass on. That being the case, the internal logic of Insteon devices seem to be robust enough to handle most spikes, noise, etc., (that is is on every 110 VAC line) and keep going.

 

But, for the cases I'm seeing in this thread it seems that there is enough energy being delivered through the power supply to the internal logic to actually fry the components. I'm speculating that you may have a device in your house (an appliance, well pump, etc.) that is generating enough energy and at a frequency that makes it past the power supply to do the component frying. Is it possible to put an oscilloscope on the 110 VAC line? You'd be looking for a signal, not noise, maybe somewhere between 60 Hz and 1000 Hz

 

Don't get me wrong; I am not defending the vulnerability of these devices. I've had my share of problems and had to implement what I consider to be unreasonable solutions. These things should be bullet proof.

[DatAsia]

Follow up to MASSIVE FAILURE IN FL

 

This is a 90 day old install done by a licensed electrician working with me on a spec home.

 

With the replacement of 7 dimmers, a keypad and my PLM the ISY controller's auto program (dusk to dawn exterior lights) began working again. But after 3 days, it stopped turning on a set of front lights.

 

Another dimmer burned out. This was a slave on a 3 way switch. I pulled the tab on the bad dimmer, manually put the lights on and the ISY successfully turned them off again at dawn on the program.

 

Since I replaced all the others above this is the SECOND slave dimmer to fry in a week (neither of these were just replaced). Since all my originals came from the same batch, maybe there is a production flaw in that group. I don't know.

 

Four other comments:

 

1. I don't have any 1,000W dimmers

2. I am not operating any unusual or high surge devices. No air compressors, table saws, etc. Just stereo, TV, computers, kitchen appliances.

3. My dimmers died ALL over the house. On 5 separate circuits - 3 regular breakers and 2 GFI. NO GFI's popped. I haven't even had a lightbulb burn out.

4. "dirty power" - Absurd. My electrician confirmed that the power company spec is to be within a 5v band. But we detected very stable power. Look, if these devices don't work in the REAL world...they are worthless. As for "calling up the power company to complain"...???

 

Imagine buying a new Lexus (Doesn't SH represent these devices to be the "Lexus" of home automation). You drive it for a couple of months and then the ride gets incredibly bumpy. When you go to the dealer, would you accept the dealer's advice to "Call the highway department to complain! Florida should really do something about these bad roads!"

 

I don't think the power company really cares or will do anything if flawed electronic devices fail.

 

I'm calling SH today to get replacements for the next two dead dimmers. As I said above, I'm hoping I just got a bad batch.

[MikeB]

That is very disheartening. You're right - maybe there is a bad batch out there. Though I have seen high failure rates for early Insteon switches, not from new switches. Seems odd to me, especially since they are occuring so close in time.

 

Have you called and asked to speak with a manager, who might be aware of any larger issues going on? If I were in your shoes, I would.

 

 

Imagine buying a new Lexus (Doesn't SH represent these devices to be the "Lexus" of home automation).

 

I would consider Insteon to be the Honda/Toyota of home automation, along with UPB and Zwave. Lutron would be Lexus/BMW, and X10 would be the Ford/GM.

 

 

You drive it for a couple of months and then the ride gets incredibly bumpy. When you go to the dealer, would you accept the dealer's advice to "Call the highway department to complain! Florida should really do something about these bad roads!"

 

I would if accept that if I hit a pot hole killing one of my shocks/struts. As a matter of fact, I think there is some kind of deal in my town that they will pay for similar damage if the pot hole was around for over a week or some period of time...

[ulrick65]

Can you post the rev and version numbers for the switches you have? I sure would like to know what all these numbers mean on these things anyway. I can't make heads or tails of it...I have newer rev number switches (ie 3.3) that show up older in ISY (ie .27 versus .28 that a v3.1 shows).

 

Follow up to MASSIVE FAILURE IN FL

 

This is a 90 day old install done by a licensed electrician working with me on a spec home.

 

With the replacement of 7 dimmers, a keypad and my PLM the ISY controller's auto program (dusk to dawn exterior lights) began working again. But after 3 days, it stopped turning on a set of front lights.

 

Another dimmer burned out. This was a slave on a 3 way switch. I pulled the tab on the bad dimmer, manually put the lights on and the ISY successfully turned them off again at dawn on the program.

 

Since I replaced all the others above this is the SECOND slave dimmer to fry in a week (neither of these were just replaced). Since all my originals came from the same batch, maybe there is a production flaw in that group. I don't know.

 

Four other comments:

 

1. I don't have any 1,000W dimmers

2. I am not operating any unusual or high surge devices. No air compressors, table saws, etc. Just stereo, TV, computers, kitchen appliances.

3. My dimmers died ALL over the house. On 5 separate circuits - 3 regular breakers and 2 GFI. NO GFI's popped. I haven't even had a lightbulb burn out.

4. "dirty power" - Absurd. My electrician confirmed that the power company spec is to be within a 5v band. But we detected very stable power. Look, if these devices don't work in the REAL world...they are worthless. As for "calling up the power company to complain"...???

 

Imagine buying a new Lexus (Doesn't SH represent these devices to be the "Lexus" of home automation). You drive it for a couple of months and then the ride gets incredibly bumpy. When you go to the dealer, would you accept the dealer's advice to "Call the highway department to complain! Florida should really do something about these bad roads!"

 

I don't think the power company really cares or will do anything if flawed electronic devices fail.

 

I'm calling SH today to get replacements for the next two dead dimmers. As I said above, I'm hoping I just got a bad batch.

[MikeB]

The labeled version is the hardware rev. The version the ISY reports is the firmware rev. I've found different hardware revs often have the same firmware version (and maybe vice versa).

 

There's also a 4 digit mfg date code labeled on the devices. 0750 would mean it was manufacturered in the 50th week of 2007.

[ulrick65]

Many of my 2476D's have 4 labels on them, as follows:

 

1. The hex address

 

2. 2476D with a 4 digit code under it, many are 4605 but not all.

 

3. A 4 digit code (I suspect the date code as they all begin with 0) with a REV underneath that (2.4, 2.1, 3.3, etc.)

 

4. A "V" (assume firmware version) like V2.1, V2.2, etc. with a 4 digit code underneath that which is all over the place (ie, I am looking at 4 of them right now: 1111, 0685, 1199, 1150). This 4 digit code never matches the date code and since it begins with years not hear yet, I am fairly sure it has nothing to do with dates.

 

My newer ones only have 3 labels on them, as follows:

 

1. The hex address

2. 2476 with a 4 digit code under it (date code I am sure, most are 08 something)

3. A "V" (in my case they are all V3.3 or V4.0) with a 5 digit code under that (ie: 09711, 09113, 09986)

 

Thanks.