ahwman Posted September 12, 2015 Posted September 12, 2015 I have the majority of my equipment now running through FilterLinc's, however I still have one situation to deal with. What do people do when you have both receptacles of an outlet being used to supply power strips. You obviously can't use two FilterLinc's on a single outlet. Also, this outlet is in a very visible are and I really hate to clutter it with a gangly FilterLinc if I can help it. Any ideas? Chuck
arw01 Posted September 12, 2015 Posted September 12, 2015 There are some "inline" filters available from leviton that could be installed INSIDE the outlet box, might require a deeper box which can be it's own adventure to get in there.
larryllix Posted September 12, 2015 Posted September 12, 2015 Make the whole in the drywall bigger and install a dual receptacle box? I have no filters, repeaters, couplers (except one old X10 unit at my main panel) and don't seem tohave these problems. would it not have been easier to find the offending appliances and fix, replace, or filter them?
Scottmichaelj Posted September 12, 2015 Posted September 12, 2015 Sounds like the power extender cords like this might work? http://www.amazon.com/Power-Strip-Liberator-Cables-Combo/dp/B0009K6WK8 They also make a Y split version http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B000234UFG/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?qid=1442087933&sr=8-1&pi=SX200_QL40&keywords=y+splitter+power+cord&dpPl=1&dpID=41Mg6CLjRBL&ref=plSrch Put the filterlinc on one and power two surge protectors. Enter safety precaution verbiage here, like make sure your not overloading it.
paulbates Posted September 12, 2015 Posted September 12, 2015 These do a good job, and need to be installed inside the box, a deeper box is needed. Very easy to wire. Only one is needed per feed, assuming only one in this case. This picture is close to life size, but this unit is smaller than many of the inline options. I use them for insteon to reduce low voltage lighting noise injected at the source when turning them on. I also used them on furnace fan motors for a number of years before replacing the furnaces.
Scottmichaelj Posted September 12, 2015 Posted September 12, 2015 So this brings up another question. So to filter a 20A circuit with Nema 5 plug I could probably use this http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0002M5OI4/ref=pd_aw_sim_60_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=0VWNCQ9J6J98VKNQYSY2 I have several UPS that are not on filters because of this. I dont have any communication issues but I would put some on regardless.
Brian H Posted September 12, 2015 Posted September 12, 2015 The XPF could be used. One thing to look at. It is very big and I believe needed a triple box to fit into. Here is the X10 information on it. That shows its size and link to a brief installation manual. http://www.x10.com/x10-pro/specialty-devices/filters/xpf-20a-wired-in-noise-filter.html
stusviews Posted September 12, 2015 Posted September 12, 2015 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00A2H4NRC?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004LZ5XMU/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_3?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER
BCreekDave Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 Maybe this is related as it pertains to electrical noise, but I have an installation that includes a triple gang box with two togglelincs (ceiling cans) and one 3 speed ceiling fan controller. Many times switching the ceiling fan on or off will affect the togglelincs that they will not control the load and stop communicating. Resetting them by air gapping them brings them back online. Would the aforementioned filter help? If I his is too off topic I'll create a new post. I searched and couldn't find anything like this. I've tried two different fan speed controllers with the same results. Sent from using Tapatalk
Teken Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 Maybe this is related as it pertains to electrical noise, but I have an installation that includes a triple gang box with two togglelincs (ceiling cans) and one 3 speed ceiling fan controller. Many times switching the ceiling fan on or off will affect the togglelincs that they will not control the load and stop communicating. Resetting them by air gapping them brings them back online. Would the aforementioned filter help? If I his is too off topic I'll create a new post. I searched and couldn't find anything like this. I've tried two different fan speed controllers with the same results. Sent from using Tapatalk Sounds like that is a good place for a snubber.
paulbates Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 A few questions. Noise is a maybe. Does the fan always turn on and off remotely from the switch? Are the togglincs dimmers, and are they loaded near their maximum? Ganging insteon dimmers considerably lowers the load.
BCreekDave Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 I was thinking something such as this: https://www.carltonbates.com/Transient-Suppressors/RED-LION-CONTROLS/RC-Suppressor-250VAC-DC/SNUB0000/p/78073698939-1?gclid=Cj0KEQjwvdSvBRDahavi3KPGrvUBEiQATZ9v0C3LMa_qRH27wNQUgO3JHujX8YrYIn6h0ovXd8rzx2gaAmwR8P8HAQ These could be installed up at the motor (more room here). i have used these in the past in industrial applications across relay coils (motor starter relays and along with valve relays and main disconnect relays). When the magnetic coil collapses (coil is de-energized), there is an emf inrush. This helps to snub it. The togglelincs are dimmers. Each 3 way box has a master and slave setup for two sets of can lights. They are not loaded to maximum. Each has about 260 watts (4 cans X 65 watt bulbs, I believe). The room has two ceiling fans, with each 3 gang box controlling a single fan respectively. The behavior is consistent in each location, but as I originally stated it does not always occur. I would say it is about 50% of the time. It also does not seem to correlate to fan speed, but if I were to guess I would say it happens less when the initial speed is set to its lowest setting of the three speeds. The togglelincs may be involved as the commons may be bonded together in theses 3 gang boxes. I will have to check on this. It may be as simple as un-bonding these. I know that they are all eventually bonded together at the panel, but I am thinking that by then the inrush may dissipate enough as no other circuits seem to be affected.
paulbates Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 That's something to try that doesn't cost much. I have a yard light transformer that world create the same problem...after being on a while, the outlet linc would lock up and have to have the breaker thrown. An x10 plugin filter fixed it. Do the switches get hot? Double ganging dimmers can cut load by 50%. You can try setting the default on to 50% for the togglelincs and test that as well.
BCreekDave Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 They don't get "hot"...they do get a little warm. About the same as the single togglelincs around the house. They are currently set to only go to 75% max. 75% at 260 watts is 195 watts. I think the max on 2466DW's is 480? If so, I am at <50%, maybe just by accident. I think I will try the snubbers and divorcing the commons, if they are tied together. Of course I will not follow the preferred experimental method and only do one at a time .
BCreekDave Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 They don't get "hot"...they do get a little warm. About the same as the single togglelincs around the house. They are currently set to only go to 75% max. 75% at 260 watts is 195 watts. I think the max on 2466DW's is 480? If so, I am at <50%, maybe just by accident. I think I will try the snubbers and divorcing the commons, if they are tied together. Of course I will not follow the preferred experimental method and only do one at a time . Now that I see the 195 watts, i really need to think about LED's! The only thing is, with 40 of these cans around the house and 11+ years, I have yet to have to replace a single one! I think the on ramp of 0.2 to 0.3 seconds really adds to the lifespan on incandescents'.
paulbates Posted September 14, 2015 Posted September 14, 2015 I was going to suggest that. Probably 14 watts each. I've replaced key ceiling can lights that stay on a lot. Start with those Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
stusviews Posted September 14, 2015 Posted September 14, 2015 The reduced consumption of electricity when using a dimmer is not linear. In general. when set to 50%, TRIAC dimmers use 40% less electric. This is not the same as reducing the maximum load when mounted next to to another dimmer, which IIRC, is 200 watts per adjacent dimmer.
larryllix Posted September 14, 2015 Posted September 14, 2015 Now that I see the 195 watts, i really need to think about LED's! The only thing is, with 40 of these cans around the house and 11+ years, I have yet to have to replace a single one! I think the on ramp of 0.2 to 0.3 seconds really adds to the lifespan on incandescents'. OMG 260W! Think about your electricity bill. If you have 40 of these units at 130 watts a piece and went to LEDs your power would drop from about 5200w down to 920 Watts full on. At 50% power, and 3 hours average on time per day, you would save $350 per year at $0.15 per kWh, going to all LED ceiling lights. With 'pot lights', as Canuckistanis call them, the heat is mostly lost in the ceiling too, so not too bad for the A/C season but no help in the heating season either. LEDs don't go soft brown when dimmed though so the evening sleep mood isn't as good.
BCreekDave Posted September 14, 2015 Posted September 14, 2015 The actual value is 65 watts per can. I was stating the combined amount per togglelinc in this case, but.i still see your point. In my case I am only paying about $0.07 per kWh but I also know there are more altruistic reasons beyond cost. Sent from using Tapatalk
larryllix Posted September 15, 2015 Posted September 15, 2015 The actual value is 65 watts per can. I was stating the combined amount per togglelinc in this case, but.i still see your point. In my case I am only paying about $0.07 per kWh but I also know there are more altruistic reasons beyond cost. Sent from using Tapatalk In Ontario I only pay a stated 9.? cents too but if you divide your total bill by your kWh we get closer to 25 cents per kWh. They do cost a big outlay though. Edit my above post to Some bulbs at HD do change colour as they are dimmed from 2700K down to 2200K (real warm brownish) when you dim them. I saw them today at The Borg in Canada,
BCreekDave Posted September 20, 2015 Posted September 20, 2015 Just wanted to update that I installed the snubbers and it seems to have done the trick. The 2466D is rated at 600 watts and de rates 50% to 300 watts in pairs, so I have just a bit of headroom to my 265 watts total load. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Teken Posted September 20, 2015 Posted September 20, 2015 Glad the snubber resolved the issue for you. Ideals are peaceful - History is violent
ScottAvery Posted November 12, 2015 Posted November 12, 2015 Have an issue that seems to fall closely in line with this, so wondering if there are any good ideas for managing it. I have some synchrolincs I was going to put into use in my home theater setup so I could verify status of devices and take corrective action, for example, a TV that ONLY has power toggle, no discrete codes, that could get out of synch with the expected state. While prepping for this I found another problem that needs to be addressed first: I have just discovered that my audio amplifier (a big 7 channel external amp), if turned on while the other equipment is on, sends a pulse that knocks out the video output from my processor, requiring it to be power cycled. I have never seen this behavior but then again, it has never turned off/on in general use. My 2 year old has decided he likes to push the button... In a previous installation the amp had a dedicated circuit, but there is no such option here at the moment. I could and probably will add one in our remodel. The current draw when it powers on seems to me to be similar to the fan motor draw described in this thread. Is there an easy way to isolate this device from the others on the circuit? Is there a plug-in version of the snubber wired into the circuit described above? Does an isolation transformer work both ways? noise in and noise out?
BCreekDave Posted November 13, 2015 Posted November 13, 2015 A snubber like i used may help, but I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't. A snubber basically sits on the wire and when a magnetic induced surge (relay coil, fan motor, possibly in your case a transformer denergizing) works to block the surge from propagating further down the wire. The question in your case is it a surge or a sag? You stated that " if turned on while the other equipment is on" is when your problem occurs. My problem was when I turned OFF the fan. Yours sounds more like a low voltage condition. with a big audio amplifier (large load) which typically exhibits an intial large draw on the line at power up and then levels off after a few seconds. For this, like you stated a dedicated line is the ultimate solution. A secondary solution would be a "smart" UPS could be a stop-gap solution. By "smart" I mean the type that is constantly powering the load by the internal battery (AKA on-line UPS). This is as compared to the lower cost back-up ups which powers the load by house power and quickly switches to the battery when the line power drops out. This type may not be fast enough to prevent the sag from effecting your video equipment. These are rather expensive especially for a large load, so if you could arrange to borrow one for testing it would be best. Thinking further, perhaps an easy test is to run a sufficiently sized extension cord from another outlet to the amplifier? Maybe you have already tried this. To my knowledge, there is not a plug-in version of the snubbers, although this would be easy to build. The closest thing would be an isobar isoblok like this: http://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-Protector-Suppressor-ISOBLOK2-0/dp/B0000510R4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1447437932&sr=8-1&keywords=isoblok I use several of these around the house for "point of use" protection. They don't seem to interfere with the insteon signals at all.
ScottAvery Posted November 16, 2015 Posted November 16, 2015 Thank you for the explanation. Looks like pulling wire is going to be in my future.
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