First Motion Sensor

[smokegrub]

1. Linked device to ISY 994i.

2. Created a scene with Motion sensor as Controller and a TottleLinc controlling a light as Responder.

3. Jumpers 1-4 are on single pins; jumper 5 is on both pins.

4. Left dial is turned as far as it will go counterclockwise.

5. Pressing Set Button once turns the light on.

6. Motion will turn the light on, but it does not turn off automatically .

7. Current Stats show the Motion Sensor and ToggleLinc are both on when motion is detected.

 

Behavior is as if Jumper 5 was on both pins.

 

What am I doing wrong in my objective to have the light turn off automatically after motion has ceased for 30 seconds?

 

[paulbates]

Jumper 5 means that external controllers like the ISY can set the options. What are the options set to when you look in the admin console?

 

I have mine set to "On commands only" and have programs turn them off. 

 

Paul

[larryllix]

Some notes I would like to add for your knowledge using Insteon MS units.

 

When Jumper 5 is on the hardware dials are disabled in the MS.

 

MS has to be put in linking mode before querying or setting options. Two taps to get out.

 

As per PB above, most of us find "On Only" works the best and let ISY decide how long to stay on.

 

With a direct linked scene between MS and Light modules ISY loses some control but the response is really fast. However, ISY programs can,  preset values into the scene to adjust brightness to suit your needs based on anything ISY knows.

 

I leave many of my lights responding 100% brightness during the daylight hours because it may be a dull day and also they are LEDs. The 0.005 cents worth of energy to leave them responding 100% for the year is not worth the agro to create complex logic.

 

For testing. A tap of the linking button will  toggle the MS status On and Off. Five quick taps will force sending of the current Dark/Light status. Hold under a dark table or in the light for about 3-5 seconds before trying this. Good method to calibrate your dark sensor level.

 

If the MS does really screwy things, factory reset it and use Restore (linking mode). About half of my ten units did weird things until I factory reset them. The other half I reset before even attempting use them (Slow learner)

 

When looking at MS status from anywhere MS status will always show On. 'Control is switched On' the only trigger that can be used. Off never comes. I got a notice of motion in my home once and almost called the cops 'cause I saw every MS showing On instead of viewing program statuses. Looking at more than one proves false trigger from one unit.

 

I have never had  false report from any of my 10 Insteon MS units. I thought I had one back a year ago but I believe it caught my bird having a fright attack in his cage abut 25 feet away after car headlights or an indoor mouse flashed his cage.

[stusviews]

Click on the MS, select Options. Adjust the timeout, be sure "On commands only" is not checked. Hold the MS set button to put it in linking mode. Click on Done.

[smokegrub]

Timeout (minutes) - 2

LED Brightness - 0

Darkness Sensitivity - 0

LED On - Unchecked

On Commands Only - Unchecked

Might Only Mode - Unchecked

The scene mentioned in a post above.

Success!

 

Excellent information, Larry!

 

If you see anything incorrect in these settings please advise.

 

Thanks!

[larryllix]

Timeout (minutes) - 2

LED Brightness - 0

Darkness Sensitivity - 0

LED On - Unchecked

On Commands Only - Unchecked

Might Only Mode - Unchecked

The scene mentioned in a post above.

Success!

 

Excellent information, Larry!

 

If you see anything incorrect in these settings please advise.

 

Thanks!

My settings vary slightly but basically are like this.

 

Timeout (minutes) - 2

LED Brightness - 75

Darkness Sensitivity - 75

LED On - Unchecked

On Commands Only - Checked    <----I previously (X10) would set these 4 or 8 minutes as a backup to controller timer failure.

                                                              For ISY I haven't used it, so far. The consequences have to be weighed .

Night Only Mode - Unchecked

[smokegrub]

The MS is controlled by a scene where it is the controller; 2 ToggleLincs and a KPL are responders. All 3 of these devices control the same lights as the MS. The MS is controlling the scene correctly but it is slow in doing so. Very slow, in fact. What are the likely causes of this slowness?

[stusviews]

How slow? Based on a timer, not a guess, BTW. Which of the three devices is wired to the load. What's the load? Is the device wired to the load a relay or a dimmer? If it's a dimmer, then what is the ramp rate set at?

[smokegrub]

The two ToggleLincs are part of a 3-way that controls the lights. The KPL controls one of the ToggleLincs. None of the devices are dimmers. A couple of seconds slow and not particularly sensitive. In other words, waving at the device from perhaps 15 feet may take a couple of tries before the lights are activated.

[Teken]

The two ToggleLincs are part of a 3-way that controls the lights. The KPL controls one of the ToggleLincs. None of the devices are dimmers. A couple of seconds slow and not particularly sensitive. In other words, waving at the device from perhaps 15 feet may take a couple of tries before the lights are activated.

 

Just to be clear the MS is not positioned in a manner where it requires *direct* line of sight. Opposed to the person having to cross and break the PIR beam?

 

I ask because a very common mistake is improper placement of the MS sensor. Unlike true security motion sensors which are calibrated and designed to compensate for a direct moving object opposed to a sweeping object.

 

The Insteon MS is not on the same level of quality and sensitivity.

 

Therefor its important to keep in mind not only the walking path, angle, sensitivity, and installation height. Any of them can cause erratic or inconsistent motion detection.

 

Lastly, MS sensors should never be placed in direct sun light, heating / cooling vents, and areas of environmental ambient temperature changes.

[stusviews]

Provide some details about the scene(s), particularly how the KPL controls only one of the ToggleLincs. Taking a few tries to activate is different that how long it takes for the devices to respond. Sounds like a communication difficulty. Also, motion sensors do not respond well to waving, walking across the field (i.e, horizontal movement) is a better test.

[smokegrub]

Just to be clear the MS is not positioned in a manner where it requires *direct* line of sight. Opposed to the person having to cross and break the PIR beam?

 

I ask because a very common mistake is improper placement of the MS sensor. Unlike true security motion sensors which are calibrated and designed to compensate for a direct moving object opposed to a sweeping object.

 

The Insteon MS is not on the same level of quality and sensitivity.

 

Therefor its important to keep in mind not only the walking path, angle, sensitivity, and installation height. Any of them can cause erratic or inconsistent motion detection.

 

Lastly, MS sensors should never be placed in direct sun light, heating / cooling vents, and areas of environmental ambient temperature changes.

The sensor is placed at the midpoint of a wall and located near the ceiling. It is located on the wall with a window and a door so as to avoid light issues.

[Teken]

The sensor is placed at the midpoint of a wall and located near the ceiling. It is located on the wall with a window and a door so as to avoid light issues.

 

Does a person enter the room in a sweeping motion or directly toward the MS?

[smokegrub]

Provide some details about the scene(s), particularly how the KPL controls only one of the ToggleLincs. Taking a few tries to activate is different that how long it takes for the devices to respond. Sounds like a communication difficulty. Also, motion sensors do not respond well to waving, walking across the field (i.e, horizontal movement) is a better test.

The scene is MS Controller, ToggleLincs Responders.

 

There may well be a communication problem. One of the ToggleLincs works as it should when sent a command; the other doesn't although it works fine when toggled. That is why I used the other ToggleLinc in the scene controlled by the KPL. When the KPL button is activated the scene executes immediately. But when the scene controlled by the MS executes I get the delay.

Does a person enter the room in a sweeping motion or directly toward the MS?

Tends to be a sweeping motion, i.e., entering in a manner parallel to the sensor.

[Teken]

The scene is MS Controller, ToggleLincs Responders.

 

There may well be a communication problem. One of the ToggleLincs works as it should when sent a command; the other doesn't although it works fine when toggled. That is why I used the other ToggleLinc in the scene controlled by the KPL. When the KPL button is activated the scene executes immediately. But when the scene controlled by the MS executes I get the delay.

 

Just to affirm the toggle linc is not a dual band device so its important that you have some kind of dual band unit with in the MS.

[smokegrub]

As I was experimenting with the setup I recall that if I placed the MS in front of the entry door to the garage it executed the scene much more quickly. That might be attributable the the fact that the dual-band KPL is only 6-8 feet from that location????

[smokegrub]

I think that may be the problem as I noted in the previous post. I am going to replace one or both of the ToggleLincs with dual-band devices and see what happens.

Just to affirm the toggle linc is not a dual band device so its important that you have some kind of dual band unit with in the MS.

[Teken]

If you have a dual band plugin device it will make your life much easier to (bridge / couple) and extend the Insteon RF signal. As a best practice I always ensure every floor has at least one dual band device in all four corners of the home.

 

Anything else is just redundancy and helps the Insteon mesh network.

 

Having one Insteon device in a central location very high up and unobstructed has also been a good solution to covering all four corners of the home.  

[stusviews]

The MS is controlled by a scene where it is the controller; 2 ToggleLincs and a KPL are responders. All 3 of these devices control the same lights as the MS.

 

The scene is MS Controller, ToggleLincs Responders.

 

 

Just to be clear, all three devices are responders to the MS, but the KPL is a member of a different scene as a controller of one ToggleLinc and that ToggleLinc is wired to the light(s).

[smokegrub]

The KPL is a controller for both ToggleLincs but the scene will not work with one of the ToggleLincs if I include it alone.

[stusviews]

The KPL is a controller for both ToggleLincs but the scene will not work with one of the ToggleLincs if I include it alone.

 

I'm not sure what, "the scene will not work with one of the ToggleLincs if I include it alone," means. Which ToggleLinc is wired to the load matters, the one that responds or the one that doesn't. How may scenes are involved? List the members of the scene(s), specify which devices are controllers/respondes and which are responders only.

[smokegrub]

Having no electrical skills, I was unaware that only one of the ToggleLinks was wired to the load. That explains what I have seen here and elsewhere in the house where I have 3-ways.  Thanks.

I appreciate the continued effort to help, but I am going to take the first step to improve communications in the garage by replacing a ToggleLinc with a dual-band. If that doesn't help, I will return to seek additional assistance. Thanks again.

I'm not sure what, "the scene will not work with one of the ToggleLincs if I include it alone," means. Which ToggleLinc is wired to the load matters, the one that responds or the one that doesn't. How may scenes are involved? List the members of the scene(s), specify which devices are controllers/respondes and which are responders only.

[stusviews]

Standard 3-way switches as called 3-way because they connect to three wires. They're used when a single load (may include more than one fixture) is controlled from two locations. One of those switches is wired to the line, the other is wired to the load. The two wires that connect the switches together are called travelers. If more that two switches control the same load, 4-way switches are installed between the 3-ways. They're called 4-way because the connect to four wires, the two travelers from each 3-way switch. Each of these 3-way and 4-way switches still have only two positions, up or down. They're not labelled on/off because their effect is based on the position(s) of the other switch(es) in the configuration.

 

Insteon uses a virtual (as opposed to actual) 3-way configurations. In particular, when more that one device controls the same load, only one of those devices is actually wired to the load. That's why the configuration is called virtual. Any time a KeypadLinc secondary button controls a load, you have a virtual 3-way configuration. KPL buttons not wired to a load are the secondary buttons. The button wired to the load (if any) is the primary button. Any device or button not wired to a load is the secondary device. Any device wired to a load is primary.

[smokegrub]

Thanks, Stu. As usual, you and others at this forum not only inform me me but educate me as well.