Learning how to use "Control" command

satwar · October 12, 2015

I setup a ISY Scene with two Togglelinc (2466SW) light switches "Garage Outdoor Lights" and "Back Porch Outdoor Light" as Responders. I then wrote two simple programs (PROGRAM ON & PROGRAM OFF) to turn both lights on/off in sync with each other if either switch is manually turned off or on:

PROGRAM OFF********************************************

If
        Control 'Back Porch Outdoor Light' is switched Off
     Or Control 'Garage Outdoor Lights' is switched Off

Then
        Set Scene 'Back Yard Light Control' Off

Else
   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

PROGRAM ON ***********************************************

If
        Control 'Back Porch Outdoor Light' is switched On
     Or Control 'Garage Outdoor Lights' is switched On

Then
        Set Scene 'Back Yard Light Control' On

Else
   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

I was puzzled when this didn't work. What am I not understanding ?

paulbates · October 12, 2015

The program appears ok. I'm not sure, can you try the scene manually from the ISY to make sure it functions as expected? There could be several things going on.

An alternative suggestion to the programs, once you know the scene works: Add both switches as controllers to the scene with the lights. No program would be needed, the scene would do all of the work and the perceived performance will be a little better.

Paul

satwar · October 12, 2015

The program appears ok. I'm not sure, can you try the scene manually from the ISY to make sure it functions as expected? There could be several things going on.

An alternative suggestion to the programs, once you know the scene works: Add both switches as controllers to the scene with the lights. No program would be needed, the scene would do all of the work and the perceived performance will be a little better.

Paul

Yes, I executed a Run (then) on each program and the Scenes turn both lights off & on as expected.

Unfortunately the both Controller scenario doesn't work either. Hence my new approach as both Responders.

I guess I'll just have to wait until I get some range extenders installed to see if I have a communication problem.

Thanks for checking the program logic

stusviews · October 12, 2015

Paul is correct. A program is unnecessary, what you want to accomplish should be done with a scene where each member of the scene is a controller. But the 2466SW is a powerline only switch. If the devices are on opposite legs of the split, single-phase electric supply, then they will have difficulty communicating.

You are correct also. Properly located (see the Owner's Manual for determining the proper location) range extenders should alleviate the problem. Post back if it doesn't.

oberkc · October 12, 2015

Make sure the the PLM is also on a clean circuit, as well. The PLM will be key to your system, and you don't want it plugged in with a bunch of computer stuff and other gadgets.

satwar · October 12, 2015

Make sure the the PLM is also on a clean circuit, as well. The PLM will be key to your system, and you don't want it plugged in with a bunch of computer stuff and other gadgets.

Well I did change the electrical leg that the PLM is located on and it seems to have improved the reliability of communication.

I also noticed that most of my 2466sw in the entire house are in the same circuit (7 insteon 2466sw) and 1 dual band dimmer. Could this be a problem ?

paulbates · October 12, 2015

Do you mean on the same power leg as opposed to 1 circuit? Most of them being on one leg is unusual, but it could explain what you are seeing. Insteon / dual band and electrical signalling is all concentrated on one leg, leaving the other leg "weaker". If there are phone chargers, low voltage lighting and/or motors on that other leg, it will definitely make it harder for insteon signals to get through.

On possibility is to put a dual band device or a phase coupler on that opposite leg. You may have to move it around to several outlets to find the sweetspot.

satwar · October 12, 2015

Do you mean on the same power leg as opposed to 1 circuit? Most of them being on one leg is unusual, but it could explain what you are seeing. Insteon / dual band and electrical signalling is all concentrated on one leg, leaving the other leg "weaker". If there are phone chargers, low voltage lighting and/or motors on that other leg, it will definitely make it harder for insteon signals to get through.

On possibility is to put a dual band device or a phase coupler on that opposite leg. You may have to move it around to several outlets to find the sweetspot.

I mean they are all on the same circuit, therefore also on the same electrical leg. I could split the circuit into two circuits on the opposite electrical leg.

paulbates · October 12, 2015

I mean they are all on the same circuit, therefore also on the same electrical leg. I could split the circuit into two circuits on the opposite electrical leg.

Ok, that plausibly has a lot to do with it, though I've not run into that before. At a minimum, you need a phase coupler on the other leg.

Also, I would recommend locating your PLM right at the electrical panel, so its has a more centralized view / transmission location. You might want to consider a signalinc panel bridge for this set up as well. These two steps will make sure that the powerline signal makes to all other circuits more evenly.

Paul

Teken · October 13, 2015

I just wanted to add one clarification to what Paul Bates offered here. The Signal Linc is a passive coupler meaning all it does is couple and relay the existing message / signal. It does not repeat or boost the signal like the Range Extender (RE) / Access Point (AP).

All dual band devices repeat, and regenerate the Insteon signal to ensure strong communications in the mesh network.

stusviews · October 13, 2015

Nothing, absolutely nothing beats a hardwired phase-coupler for bridging the opposite legs of the split, single-phase electric supply. In addition, the SignaLinc prevents most of the Insteon signal from traveling toward the distribution transformer thus maximizing the signal that remains within the confines of the residence. When a SignalLinc is installed, it doesn't matter where you place dual-band devices, they will serve to increase the range and reliability of your Insteon network..

paulbates · October 13, 2015

My experience is more like Stus. I converted to the phase coupler while on homeseer. The insteon plugin i used on Homeseer showed statistics for message completion, and 1, 2 and 3 hop. performance between the PLM and devices. After simply installing the phase coupler and retesting, all of my devices that had problems dropped a hop and or went up into the mid 90% for completion.

At the same time, satwar, do which ever resonates with you, range extenders or the signal linc bridge. As noted above, it might take some relocation of the the range extenders to find the right spot but either solution will improve your insteon network.

satwar · October 16, 2015

Okay, I've installed the hardwired phase coupler at the electrical panel, and still no luck, with the two 2466sw both as controllers in a scene. Each switch controls it's own light but will not control the other switch. I left in place the range extenders in both circuits, which also happen to be opposite phases, to ensure good Insteon rf reception.

I put in a few filterlinc (1626-10), one for an old HP3600 printer which seems to be causing noise problems (shown as bad communication with Isy). I also installed on two UPS I have. No luck yet.

Where would you advise to focus my attention ? I wonder about old fridges, freezers, washing machine, dryers, infrared sauna, television, home theater system, etc.

paulbates · October 16, 2015

Not sure what makes up the sauna, but everything else is certainly suspect... Especially if on the same circuit with the switches.

If you are able, conduct a test. Unplug all of it briefly (at least those things on the circuit in questions) and retest. Plug things in, adding one at a time, and retest until it breaks. That should lead to suspects. It might be that some problems occur when a few things are running at the same time.

Paul

stusviews · October 16, 2015

Tools > Diagnostics > Event Viewer. Set the level to 3. Tools > Diagnostics > Scene Test. Select and test the problematic scene. Look at the results beginning and ending with - - - - - scene name Test Results - - - - - . What are the results?

satwar · October 16, 2015

Tools > Diagnostics > Event Viewer. Set the level to 3. Tools > Diagnostics > Scene Test. Select and test the problematic scene. Look at the results beginning and ending with - - - - - scene name Test Results - - - - - . What are the results?

Fri 10/16/2015 06:18:24 PM : [GRP-RX ] 02 61 14 13 00 06

Fri 10/16/2015 06:18:25 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 17.A7.67 13.20.08 61 13 14 LTOFFRR(14)

Fri 10/16/2015 06:18:25 PM : [std-Cleanup Ack] 17.A7.67-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0

Fri 10/16/2015 06:18:25 PM : [CLEAN-UP-RPT] 02 58 06

Fri 10/16/2015 06:18:25 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 17.A8.22 13.20.08 61 13 14 LTOFFRR(14)

Fri 10/16/2015 06:18:25 PM : [std-Cleanup Ack] 17.A8.22-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0

<html>----- Back Yard Light Control Test Results -----</html>

<html>[succeeded] Back Porch Outdoor Light (17 A7 67 1)</html>

<html>[succeeded] Garage Outdoor Lights (17 A8 22 1)</html>

<html>----- Back Yard Light Control Test Results -----</html>

Fri 10/16/2015 06:18:32 PM : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 00 00 14 CF 13 00

Fri 10/16/2015 06:18:32 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 00.00.14 CF 13 00 06 LTOFFRR(00)

Techman · October 17, 2015

Where would you advise to focus my attention ? I wonder about old fridges, freezers, washing machine, dryers, infrared sauna, television, home theater system, etc.

TV's can cause interference on the powerline. Try a FilterLinc on the TV to see if that makes a difference

satwar · October 17, 2015

TV's can cause interference on the powerline. Try a FilterLinc on the TV to see if that makes a difference

Yes I have a Filterlinc installed on the entertainment centre in the back porch. The same circuit that has one of the 2466sw used in the problematic controller scenario. Unfortunately this did not solve my problem.

stusviews · October 17, 2015

Hops Left = 0 is an indication of communication problems, but that all devices succeeded suggests that the scene works. Disconnect or unplug everything on both circuits. Simply turning something electronic off is inadequate. It must be unplugged or disconnected. Did the help?

satwar · October 17, 2015

I hate to ask, but has anyone successfully connected two 2466sw (v.3A) as controllers in a scene with the ISY firmware 4.3.18 and UI 4.2.30. Just asking because 2466sw is not a big seller.

Still working on hunting down the noise generator in my house, although not too many options left.

jerlands · October 17, 2015

I hate to ask, but has anyone successfully connected two 2466sw (v.3A) as controllers in a scene with the ISY firmware 4.3.18 and UI 4.2.30.

You need to up grade your UI to 4.3.18. Both firmware and UI should be the same version.

Jon...

LeeG · October 17, 2015

My v.3A ToggleLincs work fine at 4.3.26. I assume they worked at 4.3.18 as I don't remember having any issues at the older ISY levels (I install all ISY images) but cannot test that old level to be 100% sure.

The Hops Left=0 is okay in this case (Scene Test) as the Max Hops=1 is the starting point. If Max Hops was 3 then Hops Left=0 would be an issue.

I suggest displaying the ToggleLincs link data base and post the result. The Scene Test does not use any of the link records required for the ToggleLinc to control another device or send state changes to PLM/ISY.

satwar · October 17, 2015

My v.3A ToggleLincs work fine at 4.3.26. I assume they worked at 4.3.18 as I don't remember having any issues at the older ISY levels (I install all ISY images) but cannot test that old level to be 100% sure.

The Hops Left=0 is okay in this case (Scene Test) as the Max Hops=1 is the starting point. If Max Hops was 3 then Hops Left=0 would be an issue.

I suggest displaying the ToggleLincs link data base and post the result. The Scene Test does not use any of the link records required for the ToggleLinc to control another device or send state changes

<isy.diag><title>Device Links Table : Garage Outdoor Lights / 17 A8 22 1</title><insteon.lincs><eventInfo>

</eventInfo>

</eventInfo>

</eventInfo>

</eventInfo>

</eventInfo>

</eventInfo>

</insteon.lincs></isy.diag>

<isy.diag><title>Device Links Table : Back Porch Outdoor Light / 17 A7 67 1</title><insteon.lincs><eventInfo>

</eventInfo>

</eventInfo>

</eventInfo>

</eventInfo>

</eventInfo>

</eventInfo>

</insteon.lincs></isy.diag>

LeeG · October 17, 2015

While I convert that to something useful, what is the PLM information

Tools | Diagnostics | PLM Info/Status

The PLM looks old from its Insteon address.

LeeG · October 17, 2015

The devices are cross-linked in a 3-way configuration. Each device also has a Controller link to the PLM. If there is a link record issue it would be in the PLM.

Garage Outdoor Lights / 17 A8 22 1

0FF8 : A2 00 13.20.08 FF 1F 01

0FF0 : E2 01 13.20.08 01 00 01

0FE8 : A2 14 13.20.08 FF 1F 01

0FE0 : A2 01 17.A7.67 FF 1F 01

0FD8 : E2 01 17.A7.67 01 00 01

0FD0 : 00 00 00.00.00 00 00 00

Device Record Count : 6

Back Porch Outdoor Light / 17 A7 67 1

0FF8 : A2 00 13.20.08 FF 1F 01

0FF0 : E2 01 13.20.08 01 00 01

0FE8 : A2 14 13.20.08 FF 1F 01

0FE0 : E2 01 17.A8.22 01 00 01

0FD8 : A2 01 17.A8.22 FF 1F 01

0FD0 : 00 00 00.00.00 00 00 00

Device Record Count : 6

Display the PLM link database and look for

A2 01 17.A8.22 xx xx xx

and

A2 01 17.A7.67 xx xx xx

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Learning how to use "Control" command

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