Tungsten Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 This is more a curiosity question than anything else and I'm wondering people's thoughts & opinions on using Wire Nuts versus Wall-Nuts. (Also, not sure if this belongs in this sub-forum or the insteon communication one) I just started swapping out some of my 5-gang & 6-gang metal boxes for plastic ones to hopefully get one step closer to perfect Insteon Communication . In the process I decided to use a combination of WAGO 773 Wall-Nuts (for the solid copper connections) & WAGO 221 Terminal Blocks (for the twisted copper connections, ie insteon switch wires). This was because trying to connect so many wires using Wire Nuts is a huge pain AND I wanted to make it easier to switch out the Insteon equipment in case I get failures in the future. My concern is that the wires obviously have less contact area in the Wall-Nut compared to a Wire Nut and I'm wondering if this reduces the ability/effectiveness of the Insteon communication protocol. It seems like as long as there is a solid connection & not a lot of resistance it shouldn't matter how much surface area of the wires are in contact but was hoping someone (or some people) with more technical/electrical/hands-on experience could help me decide if I should rip open the junction box again and re-do all the connections with Wire Nuts? Not really the route I want to go but also want to make my Insteon network as reliable and dependable as possible. TIA Pictures of the Wall-Nuts & Terminal Blocks:
Teken Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 Given between the two choices the Wago 221 are preferred ones to use. As I noted in a SH forum these sort of connectors are not always accepted by the inspector as they are not common and lots of these folks are not up to date and old school. Meaning if they tell you they are not approved you must remove them. I've used Wago lever style connectors for many years for many installs where they make sense. The ones I use are depending upon JBOX size not appropriate because having three of them reduces box space. I have 20 boxes of various 2-8 wire connectors as seen here. With respect to wire surface the same ampacity is present due to its clamping design from both sides. Ideals are peaceful - History is violent
paulbates Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 Man, wish I had know about these before. These are on my homedepot list for this weekend!
Scottmichaelj Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 (edited) +1 what Teken says. The clamping ones allow you to reuse which is nice and they dont twist the wire ends. I have used these and never had issues beside fitment inside the electrical box. I seem to find they are more reliable holding the wires too. Edit: oh and they dont hurt your fingers from twisting tight after doing a bunch of swapping out switches like I just did recently! Edited October 20, 2015 by huddadudda
Teken Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 +1 what Teken says. The clamping ones allow you to reuse which is nice and they dont twist the wire ends. I have used these and never had issues beside fitment inside the electrical box. I seem to find they are more reliable holding the wires too. Edit: oh and they dont hurt your fingers from twisting tight after doing a bunch of swapping out switches like I just did recently! Oh yeah after doing 40-50 switches your finger is like hamburger meat! When the wing style wire nuts / marettes came out it was like a electricians wet dream come true! ️ With the advent of various Wago style cable terminators it's like the super lotto max was just won! Wago or similar are nice but they are 2-3 times the cost vs standard wire nuts so keep that in mind if this is a large project. For those considering the push in style be sure you practice a few times on a scrap piece of Romex and fully understand what a PITA it will be to remove them should it be required in a confined space! Ideals are peaceful - History is violent
larryllix Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 (edited) I don't see any CULUS or CSA on the package. I assume this is listed somewhere. Edited October 21, 2015 by larryllix
Tungsten Posted October 21, 2015 Author Posted October 21, 2015 So is the consensus that the push in style (& lever style) should be just as good at insteon communications as regular wire nuts?
larryllix Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 If they are approved for use in your country then use them. I still like the wire-nuts and believe they give a better and faster connection, especially with the wings on them.
Teken Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 I don't see any CULUS or CSA on the package. I assume this is listed somewhere. Its on the bottom of the package.
larryllix Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 Its on the bottom of the package. Years ago I had a home wired with aluminum conductor and the electrician used the push in self snagging receptacles. I had one burn my wife's hand once. The short sub is really hard to splice. Since then we have learned a lot about aluminum wiring but those self-snagging connections still make me nervous and I am a little wary of these types. I assume these have a larger saddle contact area in them to be more recently approved.
Teken Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 Years ago I had a home wired with aluminum conductor and the electrician used the push in self snagging receptacles. I had one burn my wife's hand once. The short sub is really hard to splice. Since then we have learned a lot about aluminum wiring but those self-snagging connections still make me nervous and I am a little wary of these types. I assume these have a larger saddle contact area in them to be more recently approved. The device is very simple its just a hole surrounded by a conductive plate. The lever just clamps down from above making a Romex sammich. I gather the plate is ribbed to give it some bite because its extremely hard to yank the wire out with any force a normal person would exert.
Silenus Posted October 22, 2015 Posted October 22, 2015 Personally, I'd be a little wary of the "push in" connectors, though I have used them when they came with light fixtures in the past. While they are more expensive than pain wire nuts, the lever or spring terminals do work quite nicely, especially when dealing with smaller wire. They are also handy for making temporary connections. I have an appliance cord with 5 slot lever nuts attached for making it easy to preprogram in-box hardware like the Insteon micro modules and fan lincs. Professionally, my company (industrial automation and data acquisition) uses wago products for almost all electrical connections. Though most of these are din rail terminal strips, not something you'd see in most homes. The only time we've ever had problems with them has been when an installer clamps a wire that hasn't been stripped to cut the wire to length, and then leave it connected. Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk
Tungsten Posted October 22, 2015 Author Posted October 22, 2015 Silenus, I'm a little confused...are you saying that you would probably not use the push in style connectors but you'd be comfortable using the lever style connectors for hooking up insteon switches?
larryllix Posted October 22, 2015 Posted October 22, 2015 These sound really handy and more secure when you have more than three conductors in one connector. For two or three conductors and probably price I think I would still prefer my nuts twisted even if it does cause some bruising on my wire around the joint.
Scottmichaelj Posted October 23, 2015 Posted October 23, 2015 These sound really handy and more secure when you have more than three conductors in one connector. For two or three conductors and probably price I think I would still prefer my nuts twisted even if it does cause some bruising on my wire around the joint. Larry you "prefer your nuts twisted"? Think thats a little TMI.
paulbates Posted October 23, 2015 Posted October 23, 2015 Larry you "prefer your nuts twisted"? Think thats a little TMI. There are boards for that.....
stusviews Posted October 23, 2015 Posted October 23, 2015 I did tighten wire nuts between my knuckles. As my fingers wore out and time wore on I switched to using linesman pliers
larryllix Posted October 23, 2015 Posted October 23, 2015 (edited) When the winged warriors came out it was so much better. You can start them fast with a finger twisting spin, right on the tip, to capture the wires, you so painfully made even lengths, and then you can twist right into the insulation with little effort. You just hoped you didn't have to untwist those after the linesman pliers were on them. Some got some bad burrs. Just to reminisce, how about the old Marr connectors and trying to get all the tips lined up while you performed accidental surgery on your wrist when the slotted screwdriver slipped out of the slot up your wrist? Then you put the cap on and it usually fell off later. Edited October 23, 2015 by larryllix
Silenus Posted October 23, 2015 Posted October 23, 2015 Silenus, I'm a little confused...are you saying that you would probably not use the push in style connectors but you'd be comfortable using the lever style connectors for hooking up insteon switches?That is correct. It's just personal preference for the most part. They claim the push in style are reusable when used with solid wire, but I question how much this reduces the clamping force of the connector when you do it. Plus, if you are working with stranded wire, and a wire doesn't seat properly/stripped too much insulation so the conductor is exposed, you've just wasted a wall nut. If you follow the instructions and don't need to redo work, they're probably fine. The fact that they aren't much bigger than conventional wire nuts is definitely nice, especially for the 4 and six wire models (I always dread connecting more than 3 wires with a wire nut). But at the same time, I personally prefer the actual release of the lever style nuts. Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk
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