rlanza1054 Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Hi all, I don't think this thread belongs here but could not find a place for it, so moderator please move it if it needs to be moved! I went to the doctor today an we started to both geek out on each other! We talked about our Home Automation systems. He mentioned that he is using a Crestron Home Automation System. I all my searching over the years, I have never heard of Crestron products? Has anyone heard of this type of system/products. What protocol does it use? My doctor is an new Apple fanboy. That's fine with me. He believes that Apple's entry into the Home Automation, that Apple will eventually take over the market and actually make the wall switches (like Insteon, Luttron, Nest). I told him Apple will never make that kind of product, Apple does take on things that might give therm a black eye. Their users will never install switches in large. Apple does really have users that like screw drivers. Sorry to all the Apple fans here, this is not geared to you, if your here you are different from the general mass Apple customer base. Even the Nest is too much for some users. When i told him the limits of Apple's Homekit, he believes it will get better as time goes on and even get into UDI ISY abilities. I told him that Apple will only be the front end, Apple does care about the back end, as long as it rules the front end, it might appear that it owns the Home Automation market but it won't be true if it does own the back end. It will be the magical thinking thing. Remember, people love Apple but don't fully understand that the Macintosh runs on an Intel hardware and an Apple iPhones runs on a Samsung built processor, the same company that competes with Apple with Android phones. The same company builds the inside parts of both the Apple phones and the Android phones. But put all that stuff aside it seems this Crestron stuff works on iOS (iPhones). I'm not sure if it also works on Android but it might. So does anyone know about this Crestron stuff. Here is a link to their website: http://www.crestron.com/ I couldn't figure it out. The products look more upscale than the Insteon stuff but no so much. It looks like it does more of a media automation, much less Home Automation. I couldn't figure out what protocol its using, is it proprietary? Thanks Rob Link to comment
MWareman Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Not sure on protocol, but they have a very tight leash on distribution. You have to use their VARs to supply and install. Lots of $$.... I have a neighbor who does installs for a VAR - he doesn't have a system hiself. They don't even give discounts to their own installers.... We also have Crestron at work.... That system is a few years old. Mostly serial connected, some IP APIs. In summary - nice equipment. Lots of $$. And I can do more with my ISY... Link to comment
stusviews Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Crestron HA has been around since the late 60s. It is propriety and is often found in upscale homes that do have HA. It's almost always professionally installed, that is, it's not meant for the DIYer. Link to comment
Jamminred Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 I believe the protocol that Crestron runs on, as well as Control4 is CA$H. it can cost $200 just to change the function of a light switch. Just kidding, but what the others have said is correct, it is pretty stable and reliable system in general, often used in commercial spaces for their AV integration. Think high end conference room. also in expensive houses Control4 uses Zigbee, and I am not sure of the actual protocol Crestron uses, but it is always installed by a dealer who is certified and keeps a tight rein on their programming software Link to comment
stusviews Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 FWIW, Crestron integrates with Somfy. Link to comment
MWareman Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 I believe the protocol that Crestron runs on, as well as Control4 is CA$H. it can cost $200 just to change the function of a light switch. Yep.... Agree with you here! Link to comment
apostolakisl Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 I'm sure some Crestron systems are just great. But a client of mine bought a house with Crestron . .. and sold it BECAUSE of Crestron. He Hated it. He said it constantly had issues and it was so damn locked down that you couldn't do anything to it. And when it went down, he was literally in the dark. It cost him hundreds of dollars in labor for the guy just to show up and, like waiting for the cable guy, was a huge inconvenience. I suspect Crestron days are numbered as the quality of the competition has vastly improved in the last 10 years. And the options/functionality/connectivity of the competition is past Crestron and racing forward at mach speed. Link to comment
rlanza1054 Posted October 31, 2015 Author Share Posted October 31, 2015 Hi all, Well, I couldn't sleep all the way through last night. I woke up at 6am, very very early for me. I decided to search about this Crestron company. So here is what I found out: Its considered the cream of the crop, top of the line in Home Automation. And it comes at a very very high cost. I saw that they have a new touch screen remote control, looks a bit like the Harmony Ultimate Touchscreen remote alhtough it looks a lot nicer actually. Take a second and take a seat! Take a guess at the price of this remote control? .....background music is playing the Jeopardy TV Game show final question theme music..... $2400.00 Are they out of there minds! There was someone who got a quote for doing a couple of rooms, here is the price he got quoted: .....background music is playing the Jeopardy TV Game show final question theme music..... $100,000.00 No wonder I've never heard of this company! What I find funny, is that I had told my doctor I've been working on installing my system from this past Spring until the end of the Summer. He was telling me how he like the way he installed his system. I assumed at that time (since at the time I never heard of this company at all) that the doctor installed his system himself. I don't think the doctor understood that I actually installed the system myself, pulling wires myself, programming myself actually you guys here helped me greatly with the programming). I also learned as you guys stated Crestron stated out in the Automation of the Audio/Visual Components, the Entertainment systems. Then they moved into the entire House. What I found interesting is that the reason why people say their systems are so reliable is that there is separate wiring going to the individual modules they sell. It does not use the existing electrical wiring. And only recently added RF, especially for their motion sensor type of modules. And unless I misread the specs on a typical in-wall light dimmer, their modules in standby run using 25watts of power each. Whereas Insteon uses 0.01watts! UPDATE: It requires a mimum of 25watts to operate a light, the light cannot be less than 25 watts. I downloaded the spec sheet and unless I am missing it, they don't list the standby operating power usage. But here is a link to the spec sheet on their dimmer if anyone is interested in looking what it offers: clw-dimex-p.pdf The protocol Crestron uses is proprietary but its called: infiNET EX® 2-way RF, 2.4 GHz ISM Channels 11-26 (2400 to 2483.5 MHz), default channel 15; IEEE 802.15.4 compliant Again,after looking at this, I standby my statement that Apple will never make the back end products like a dimmer switch, it will want to be the front end, which there is already a Crestron app anyway. Wow, I thought I had a cool system with my Insteon and the Crestron stuff does look amazing. But of course, I'm poor, but I have the satisfaction of knowing I did the work myself and don't have to rely on anyone for my system (except for everyone here!). I don't think this doctor understood when I said I programmed my own system, that I programmed it. According to what I read the installer comes in, installs and sets up everything, but then teaches the end user how to make small simple changes. Not the real programming. I also found this product being sold at Smarthome, its a way to intergate Insteon into a Crestron house. Its intended to be used when a property (house) is old and you cannot run new wiring behind the walls. Check out the price to get this intergration! http://www.smarthome.com/artemis-v2-64-device-insteon-controller.html Thanks everyone for explaing it! WOW! Rob Link to comment
Brian H Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 I have seen Crestron HA mentioned a few times on various Automation Forums. The Smarthome sales page also indicated it is not available. Even at that price. Link to comment
Guest Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 Crestron is definite considered the highest end of high end HA. And yes, it's NOT end-user installable. And YES, it's VERY EXPENSIVE. They've been doing it for years, and you'll most often see it in company conference rooms and places like that where they control lights orchestrated with blinds, projectors, and other audio equipment. Certainly not for the faint of heart, but it works. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment
MustangChris04 Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 I've seen (and used) Crestron products plenty of times over the years. I do work inside professional sports stadiums, and nearly every stadium I've been to uses Crestron products in one way or another. Those multi-million dollar mansions you see on TV, yup you guessed it, they are using Crestron. Those conference/ballrooms at a hotel with the fancy touchpads on the wall and at the conference tables, all Crestron. (Just look for their logo, they like to put it on all their bezels). When a homeowner of a mansion wants to automate their house and money isn't an option, then Crestron is perfect. It is not meant for a DIYer, as any configuration or changes need to be done through one of their re-sellers. It's not a system that you tinker with, as the cost prohibits small tweaks here and there. Because of their reputation, they can get away with charging top dollar for their products. Crestron supports many different protocols, TCIP/IP, serial, IR, RF, they even have their own CIP protocol over Ethernet. I've seen some amazing installs and some not so great installs. As apostolakisl pointed out, he had client that sold their house because of Crestron. That house could have possibly had a Crestron setup that was 40 years old, or just a bad installer that made a great system work like garbage. Link to comment
apostolakisl Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 Hi all, Well, I couldn't sleep all the way through last night. I woke up at 6am, very very early for me. I decided to search about this Crestron company. So here is what I found out: Its considered the cream of the crop, top of the line in Home Automation. And it comes at a very very high cost. I saw that they have a new touch screen remote control, looks a bit like the Harmony Ultimate Touchscreen remote alhtough it looks a lot nicer actually. Take a second and take a seat! Take a guess at the price of this remote control? .....background music is playing the Jeopardy TV Game show final question theme music..... $2400.00 Are they out of there minds! There was someone who got a quote for doing a couple of rooms, here is the price he got quoted: .....background music is playing the Jeopardy TV Game show final question theme music..... $100,000.00 No wonder I've never heard of this company! What I find funny, is that I had told my doctor I've been working on installing my system from this past Spring until the end of the Summer. He was telling me how he like the way he installed his system. I assumed at that time (since at the time I never heard of this company at all) that the doctor installed his system himself. I don't think the doctor understood that I actually installed the system myself, pulling wires myself, programming myself actually you guys here helped me greatly with the programming). I also learned as you guys stated Crestron stated out in the Automation of the Audio/Visual Components, the Entertainment systems. Then they moved into the entire House. What I found interesting is that the reason why people say their systems are so reliable is that there is separate wiring going to the individual modules they sell. It does not use the existing electrical wiring. And only recently added RF, especially for their motion sensor type of modules. And unless I misread the specs on a typical in-wall light dimmer, their modules in standby run using 25watts of power each. Whereas Insteon uses 0.01watts! UPDATE: It requires a mimum of 25watts to operate a light, the light cannot be less than 25 watts. I downloaded the spec sheet and unless I am missing it, they don't list the standby operating power usage. But here is a link to the spec sheet on their dimmer if anyone is interested in looking what it offers: clw-dimex-p.pdf The protocol Crestron uses is proprietary but its called: infiNET EX® 2-way RF, 2.4 GHz ISM Channels 11-26 (2400 to 2483.5 MHz), default channel 15; IEEE 802.15.4 compliant Again,after looking at this, I standby my statement that Apple will never make the back end products like a dimmer switch, it will want to be the front end, which there is already a Crestron app anyway. Wow, I thought I had a cool system with my Insteon and the Crestron stuff does look amazing. But of course, I'm poor, but I have the satisfaction of knowing I did the work myself and don't have to rely on anyone for my system (except for everyone here!). I don't think this doctor understood when I said I programmed my own system, that I programmed it. According to what I read the installer comes in, installs and sets up everything, but then teaches the end user how to make small simple changes. Not the real programming. I also found this product being sold at Smarthome, its a way to intergate Insteon into a Crestron house. Its intended to be used when a property (house) is old and you cannot run new wiring behind the walls. Check out the price to get this intergration! http://www.smarthome.com/artemis-v2-64-device-insteon-controller.html Thanks everyone for explaing it! WOW! Rob Minimum 25 watt device. Well that pretty much eliminates any led fixture, unless you have 3 or 4 lights on the fixture. I think Insteon uses a little more than .01 watts unless something has change since I last checked. My recollection is that it is more like .7 watts, but maybe the newer models are better. Not sure how any reasonable person is going to justify spending that kind of cash on Crestron when there are so many other choices out there now that are capable of working just as well at maybe 5% (or less) of the price. Furthermore the "poor man" brands are feverishly integrating with all the other regular "poor man" stuff that we all own. Link to comment
stusviews Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 Reasonable people don't have Crestron installed, wealthy people do. Link to comment
MWareman Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 Reasonable people don't have Crestron installed, wealthy people do.This! Link to comment
Scottmichaelj Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Coming from someone who has spent money on a professional system... I have an RTI system in my home. It does have to be professionally installed and programmed but I LOVE IT! I have a XP6 with three T2x remotes and a couple iOS licenses. Thankfully I am in the industry and have access to this so I can program it myself. The nicest thing is they have a driver (plugin) that is able to communicate directly with the ISY giving you full two way feedback over standard TCP/IP. The driver was made by a ISY forum member here actually. The downside is that this system not cheap and every plugin or lic for a device costs money. However because its rock solid, fully configurable, and works with a ton of products I dont mind spending money for the quality. It is cheaper overall than Control4, Cresteon, Savant, etc. I also wanted remotes with actual buttons, as I dislike using touch screens. My belief is touch screens should be used for informational feedback only. See pix. I am boring and keep the gui graphics and buttons to a minimalistic design so please dont pick on me. You can look at AMX, ProControls, and URC - all have pros and cons. Some of these if not all require a authorized installer, but these cost less then the ones above. Here is a sample of some screens of my remotes. On my "Home" page the top button can arm/disarm the Elk and show armed state. I have my most used lighting scenes for each area. There is a "sleep" button that auto turns on a playlist of calming nature sounds in my bedrooms distributed audio, and then buttons control my HD shades (I could have made this a single button). The current weather is at the top right, which I can click on to give me more info about today, then by swiping I can get a 5 day forecast. If I click on the "Home Page/Date Time" it then gives me the full details of my remote specs, IP, Remote Name, WiFi Signal strength, etc. I also can touch any of the lighting, directv, kodi, or music to control and get feedback of those devices. On the DirecTV page, its very simple but I get the show name, channel, when it started and time left all from a quick glance. If I click on the "DirecTV and date/time" in the top left I go back to the "Home" page. This info can have more details if required. I find it easy for anyone to pickup and use and but very powerful. Link to comment
ranman57 Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 This is my first post here on the forum, so please bear with me. I happened across this thread while looking for info on scripting options for my ISY 944, and how to get it to talk to my Crestron system. I program Crestron systems for a living, but certainly can't afford all the light switches it would take to run my house, so have been using Insteon stuff instead. Though with all the switches, keypads and serial interfaces I've replaced over the last few years I might have been better off just buying Crestron stuff. Oh well. I've had basic Insteon control working with Crestron for years, but recently decided to upgrade the level of control and feedback, hence my prowling the forum for info. All great stuff, and it's making the house all the more amusing to live in, unless you ask my live-in other half, who always asks why we can't have a normal house. That sort of leads into something I saw here, about people buying a house with an existing Creston system and hating it. Having worked on MANY homes where there was an existing Crestron system, and having the new owner hate it, that actually makes sense in a perverted sort of way. It sounds like a cool thing when you buy the house. But then you find out when you want to replace a TV you have to pay someone a lot of money to reprogram the system just to swap out a TV, well, you get disillusioned with a quickness. And then you find out the previous owner either never got the source code, or lost it, or whatever, and to replace a TV you have to rewrite all the code in the house from scratch at a truly terrifying cost, well at that point the hate is very understandable. But I think any home with pretty much any advanced level of automation in it has been very personalized for the owner who automated it, and the next guy who inhabits the place will probably find it frustrating, unless that person has a level of techiness in line with what the house has in it, and can appreciate the fun of adapting it to their wants and needs. But man, if you can't do it yourself you are in a world of trouble and cost very quickly, and you either need to rip it all out (not an option in most of the houses I work in. No automation = no lights, HVAC, security system etc.) or hire a reputable company to work with and make it happen correctly. Again, not an inexpensive proposition... But as far as reliabilty goes, Crestron IS the gold standard. The stuff is incredibly expensive, and very much not a DIY proposition. The level of control, and the amount of devices and systems Crestron can interface with is truly awesome. If a system has any sort of a reliable and understandable API , and can communicate reliably via pretty much any sort of communications bus we can make it dance. The reliability is mostly determined by the quality of the programming, much more so that the actual hardware. I routinely see code that I know never worked quite right. Or just wasn't really thought out well, even if it works. An interesting thing I've found over the years is that guys want all this crazy stuff, but the wife just wants to watch TV or turn on a light without having to jump through hoops. I just worked on a home where the wife truly hated the system, and wanted to rip it all out. The husband and a sales guy designed it, but she actually used it on a daily basis. So I sat down with her for a while, found out what was pissing her off, did a bunch of tweaking and now she loves the system. Human engineering is just as important, if not more so, than code and black boxes. I think it's also worth noting that homes with real mac daddy control systems of any ilk tend to have a lot of gadgets and systems that the system is controlling, and when one of those devices goes whacky the control system gets blamed for the failure. But trying to expain that the firmware upgrade Directv or someone like that pushed out, and which creamed the carefully planned control system running it, is one of my lifes most aggravating chores. But it happens often, and just comes with the territory. It's a very rare moment in time where all the tech in an advanced house is actually working, it's more of a game of whack-a-mole. You just replaced a bogus keypad, it's all good, and then the music server's hard drive bites it the next day. So it's obviously something that happened when the light switch was replaced, and "Damn it, this system never works!" is the next phone call. Big sigh... Just my 2 cents... Link to comment
apostolakisl Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 This is my first post here on the forum, so please bear with me. I happened across this thread while looking for info on scripting options for my ISY 944, and how to get it to talk to my Crestron system. I program Crestron systems for a living, but certainly can't afford all the light switches it would take to run my house, so have been using Insteon stuff instead. Though with all the switches, keypads and serial interfaces I've replaced over the last few years I might have been better off just buying Crestron stuff. Oh well. I've had basic Insteon control working with Crestron for years, but recently decided to upgrade the level of control and feedback, hence my prowling the forum for info. All great stuff, and it's making the house all the more amusing to live in, unless you ask my live-in other half, who always asks why we can't have a normal house. That sort of leads into something I saw here, about people buying a house with an existing Creston system and hating it. Having worked on MANY homes where there was an existing Crestron system, and having the new owner hate it, that actually makes sense in a perverted sort of way. It sounds like a cool thing when you buy the house. But then you find out when you want to replace a TV you have to pay someone a lot of money to reprogram the system just to swap out a TV, well, you get disillusioned with a quickness. And then you find out the previous owner either never got the source code, or lost it, or whatever, and to replace a TV you have to rewrite all the code in the house from scratch at a truly terrifying cost, well at that point the hate is very understandable. But I think any home with pretty much any advanced level of automation in it has been very personalized for the owner who automated it, and the next guy who inhabits the place will probably find it frustrating, unless that person has a level of techiness in line with what the house has in it, and can appreciate the fun of adapting it to their wants and needs. But man, if you can't do it yourself you are in a world of trouble and cost very quickly, and you either need to rip it all out (not an option in most of the houses I work in. No automation = no lights, HVAC, security system etc.) or hire a reputable company to work with and make it happen correctly. Again, not an inexpensive proposition... But as far as reliabilty goes, Crestron IS the gold standard. The stuff is incredibly expensive, and very much not a DIY proposition. The level of control, and the amount of devices and systems Crestron can interface with is truly awesome. If a system has any sort of a reliable and understandable API , and can communicate reliably via pretty much any sort of communications bus we can make it dance. The reliability is mostly determined by the quality of the programming, much more so that the actual hardware. I routinely see code that I know never worked quite right. Or just wasn't really thought out well, even if it works. An interesting thing I've found over the years is that guys want all this crazy stuff, but the wife just wants to watch TV or turn on a light without having to jump through hoops. I just worked on a home where the wife truly hated the system, and wanted to rip it all out. The husband and a sales guy designed it, but she actually used it on a daily basis. So I sat down with her for a while, found out what was pissing her off, did a bunch of tweaking and now she loves the system. Human engineering is just as important, if not more so, than code and black boxes. I think it's also worth noting that homes with real mac daddy control systems of any ilk tend to have a lot of gadgets and systems that the system is controlling, and when one of those devices goes whacky the control system gets blamed for the failure. But trying to expain that the firmware upgrade Directv or someone like that pushed out, and which creamed the carefully planned control system running it, is one of my lifes most aggravating chores. But it happens often, and just comes with the territory. It's a very rare moment in time where all the tech in an advanced house is actually working, it's more of a game of whack-a-mole. You just replaced a bogus keypad, it's all good, and then the music server's hard drive bites it the next day. So it's obviously something that happened when the light switch was replaced, and "Damn it, this system never works!" is the next phone call. Big sigh... Just my 2 cents... The problem with Crestron, as I understand, is you can't rip it out. Insteon, Zwave, or similar systems simply require replacing the fancy switch with a regular switch. And I know your pain with Insteon hardware in the early days. However, they did end up warranty covering everything. That didn't change the PITA of the whole thing, but the current hardware seems to be very reliable. The only current issue as far as I know is under-rated capacitors on the PLM (which many of us simply replaced ourselves). Link to comment
jerlands Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 You just replaced a bogus keypad, it's all good, and then the music server's hard drive bites it the next day. So it's obviously something that happened when the light switch was replaced, and "Damn it, this system never works!" is the next phone call. Big sigh... Thanks for the insight... Odd how those keypads tend to blow out hard drives Actually I understand that home automation doesn't really add to a homes value so being able to pull it out and take it with you is a plus. Jon... Link to comment
Scottmichaelj Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 Thanks for the insight... Odd how those keypads tend to blow out hard drives Actually I understand that home automation doesn't really add to a homes value so being able to pull it out and take it with you is a plus. Jon... As soon as anyone I talk with says the value of the house increases I politely correct them. Its purely a comfort thing. Same for pools, fancy backyard BBQs, etc. Link to comment
larryllix Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 This depends on the level of the home. Top end ritzy homes are purchased by ones with the big bucks that want everything done for them. Lower income people would like HA in some cases but want todo it themselves. I have seen a few people buy homes with pools and fill them in. I have also known a few people that would never buy a home with a pool and yet added one after moving in. Alternative energy in homes is a similar situation. They can lower the market value of your home. Most people don't want complicated. People that do, usually don't want somebody else's mess, and want to do it themselves, if at all. Wouldn't your house be happier with an ISY994i ? Link to comment
jerlands Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 I imagine people with big bucks are gonna want things done in their manner so a system offering a higher level of customization is likely to have a greater chance of survival. Jon... Link to comment
stusviews Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 Crestron systems are usually designed and installed by those other than the homeowner, most often by the builder/designer. A designer/architect will usually discuss the system with the buyer before installation. Any further customization is not meant for a DIYer, although some are successful. Link to comment
apostolakisl Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 It appears that Crestron has more than one system. I was under the impression that crestron hard wired (the line voltage, not a control wire) every device back to a control panel . . . meaning that once installed you pretty much were hosed if you didn't like it. This is what my friend had who sold the house because he hated it so much. I think this is the classic Crestron system. They also have a low voltage control wire solution where the AC is wired mostly like normal but LV control wires go to all the fixtures/switches. This seems like it could be easily undone, but can only be installed if you have the walls open. Finally it looks like they also have a "z-wave" solution. https://www.crestron.com/downloads/pdf/product_misc/dg_lighting_120v_277v.pdf Link to comment
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