Insteon Micro Module 2444-222 - Comm Issue with Scene

[xjsimon]

 

According to the message the Micro module returned the Off command did turn the device Off.

 

And when I change the micro module to the off position in a scene, all I get is this:

Mon 11/09/2015 05:15:06 PM : [iNST-TX-I1  ] 02 62 2C 96 A0 0F 13 00

Mon 11/09/2015 05:15:06 PM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 2C.96.A0 0F 13 00 06          LTOFFRR(00)

Mon 11/09/2015 05:15:06 PM : [All         ] Writing 0 bytes to devices

Mon 11/09/2015 05:15:06 PM : [iNST-SRX    ] 02 50 2C.96.A0 2F.BB.92 2B 13 00    LTOFFRR(00)

Mon 11/09/2015 05:15:06 PM : [std-Direct Ack] 2C.96.A0-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

Mon 11/09/2015 05:15:06 PM : [iNST-DUP    ] Previous message ignored.

 

From an earlier post the Scene On and Scene Off did not change the color of the Micro Module LED?

 

This is the log from turning the entire scene to "On":

 

Mon 11/09/2015 02:52:26 PM : [iNST-TX-I1  ] 02 62 00 00 1F CF 11 00

Mon 11/09/2015 02:52:26 PM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 00.00.1F CF 11 00 06          LTONRR (00)

Mon 11/09/2015 02:52:26 PM : [D2D EVENT   ] Event [2C 96 A0 1] [sT] [255] uom=0 prec=-1

Mon 11/09/2015 02:52:26 PM : [  2C 96 A0 1]       ST 255

 

This is the log from turning the scene "off":

Mon 11/09/2015 02:53:43 PM : [iNST-TX-I1  ] 02 62 00 00 1F CF 13 00

Mon 11/09/2015 02:53:43 PM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 00.00.1F CF 13 00 06          LTOFFRR(00)

Mon 11/09/2015 02:53:43 PM : [D2D EVENT   ] Event [2C 96 A0 1] [sT] [0] uom=0 prec=-1

Mon 11/09/2015 02:53:43 PM : [  2C 96 A0 1]       ST   0

"According to the message the Micro module returned the Off command did turn the device Off." Yes, when I move the position to on or off inside the scene, it immediately sends the command to the module to turn on/off. The problem is that if I move it to the off position in the scene (which sends an immediate off command to the module), the scene is not remembered with module in the off position. It looks like there should be more linking information sent to the device when I change on/off of the module inside the scene. All it is doing is sending an immediate command to the module to turn on or off. 

 

"did not change the color of the Micro Module LED?" Yes, the color of the LED changes from green (on) to red (off) when those commands are sent to the module.

 

"This is the log from turning the entire scene to "On":" This is where I'm struggling to communicate. I add the module to a scene and I can turn that scene on and off which will toggle the module on and off, however the scene automatically defaults to having the module in an "on" position. So when I turn the scene off, it turns the module off. I also need scenes where the module is already in an "off" position. I cannot accomplish this as the scene reverts back to having the module in the "on" position (like it defaults to when the module is newly added to the scene).

 

After looking at this most of the day, I'm almost certain that the cause of the problem is a bug in the software that does not write the new linking information when the module is turned to the "off" position. As seen in that post above, when any other device is set to "off" it writes some link data to the device. That's not what happens when I change the micro module to the "off" position in the scene. All it does is sends an immediate "off" command to the module. The fact that these scenes worked fine with the Insteon Hub as the controller points to a problem with the ISY software.

 

Thanks for trying to help LeeG. This is pretty frustrating and I guess I'm the only one with this problem?

[LeeG]

I'm afraid what you describe as a failure is normal device operation.

Moving the slider to 0% or 100% simply affects the Micro Module on/off status.   It has no affect on the action by the Scene.

 

Sorry you do not agree with that.

 

Is there something in the Quick Start guide or User manual that contradicts what i am describing as normal device operation.

[xjsimon]

Okay, one more attempt to show the difference between setting the micro module to "off" in a new scene I created.

 

This is the log when I set another device (2477D) to "off" in that same scene.

Mon 11/09/2015 06:18:34 PM : [All         ] Writing 1 bytes to devices

Mon 11/09/2015 06:18:35 PM : [  30 B7 D7 1]       ST   0

Mon 11/09/2015 06:18:35 PM : [30 B7 D7 1  ] Link    6 : 0FC8 [A21F2FBB92001F01] Writing [..........00....]

 

This is the log when I set the micro module to "off" in the scene.

Mon 11/09/2015 06:19:09 PM : [All         ] Writing 0 bytes to devices

 

Notice that nothing is being written to the device when setting the module to "off".

[xjsimon]

I'm afraid what you describe as a failure is normal device operation.

Moving the slider to 0% or 100% simply affects the Micro Module on/off status.   It has no affect on the action by the Scene.

 

Sorry you do not agree with that.

 

Is there something in the Quick Start guide or User manual that contradicts what i am describing as normal device operation.

Why in the world would the scene not control ("affect") the module's on/off status? Isn't that one of the purposes of setting up a scene?

I could set the module to "off" in my Insteon hub scenes. If I can't control the open/close position of my curtains, then I guess I'm going to have to go back to the Hub. Seems insane to me though.

[LeeG]

The KPL example is changing the Responder On Level.  The KPL will turn Off when that Responder link is used.

 

This is the log when I set another device (2477D) to "off" in that same scene.

Mon 11/09/2015 06:18:34 PM : [All         ] Writing 1 bytes to devices

Mon 11/09/2015 06:18:35 PM : [  30 B7 D7 1]       ST   0

Mon 11/09/2015 06:18:35 PM : [30 B7 D7 1  ] Link    6 : 0FC8 [A21F2FBB92001F01] Writing [..........00....] Responder link

 

The Micro Module case is changing the Controller Status, not the Responder On Level.

 

This is the log when I set the micro module to "off" in the scene.

Mon 11/09/2015 06:19:09 PM : [All         ] Writing 0 bytes to devices

[xjsimon]

 

The KPL example is changing the Responder On Level.  The KPL will turn Off when that Responder link is used.

 

This is the log when I set another device (2477D) to "off" in that same scene.

Mon 11/09/2015 06:18:34 PM : [All         ] Writing 1 bytes to devices

Mon 11/09/2015 06:18:35 PM : [  30 B7 D7 1]       ST   0

Mon 11/09/2015 06:18:35 PM : [30 B7 D7 1  ] Link    6 : 0FC8 [A21F2FBB92001F01] Writing [..........00....] Responder link

 

The Micro Module case is changing the Controller Status, not the Responder On Level.

 

This is the log when I set the micro module to "off" in the scene.

Mon 11/09/2015 06:19:09 PM : [All         ] Writing 0 bytes to devices

 

Not sure what this means... but seems you are convinced there is no problem. Can you just confirm your conclusion?

The micro module cannot be turned "off" by a scene like every other device. - by design?

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the help, but I just can't fathom why this would be the case.

[stusviews]

I agree. I have several scenes that include Micro Modules and that can turn the module on or off. What are the members of the scene? Which are controllers and which are responders? Do you have anything wire to a sense wire?

[xjsimon]

I agree. I have several scenes that include Micro Modules and that can turn the module on or off. What are the members of the scene? Which are controllers and which are responders? Do you have anything wire to a sense wire?

"What are the members of the scene?" I have a bunch of other devices in my other Theater scenes, but to isolate the problem, I've tried creating scenes where the micro module is the only device (with no change).

"Which are controllers and which are responders?" In my original Theater scenes everything was configured as just a responder. When I created new scenes with the micro module as the only device, I tried both as a controller and a responder. Didn't make any difference in behavior.

"Do you have anything wire to a sense wire?" No, I'm not using the sense wire.

 

Thanks for the help stusviews. It's great to hear that you've got micro modules in your network and that they work. But I guess that perplexes me a little. Have you got a scene setup where you have a micro module in the "off" position?

 

PS - I did come up with a lousy workaround. I've created Programs that include the turning on the scene along with a specific on/off command to the micro module. This does mean that rather than just firing off a scene, I will have to go and run the program manually from the GUI.

[LeeG]

The conclusion a Scene cannot turn Off the Micro Module is wrong.  The Scene Off does turn the Micro Module Off.  The Scene On turns the Micro Module On.

[xjsimon]

The conclusion a Scene cannot turn Off the Micro Module is wrong.  The Scene Off does turn the Micro Module Off.  The Scene On turns the Micro Module On.

Okay, let me get more specific. What you did not state, but what you are inferring is:

You CANNOT turn OFF the micro module by turning ON a scene.

 

Let me describe a real-life scenario.

I have multiple scenes in my theater. I have a group of devices (lights) that exists inside all those scenes. This allows me to easily control the lighting in the theater. There is a progression with a smooth transition between these scenes.

Scene 0 - All lights off, curtains open (micro module in the OFF position).

Scene 1 - All lights on, curtains closed (micro module in the ON position). People enter the room and get seated. 

Scene 2 - Some lights off, some lights dim to minimal lighting. Curtains open (micro module in the OFF position). Movie begins.

Scene 3 - Some lights brighten up, credits roll. Curtains remain open as music plays (micro module in the OFF position).

Scene 1 - All lights on, curtains closed (micro module in the ON position). People get up and leave.

Scene 0 - All lights off, curtains open (micro module in the OFF position).

 

Bear in mind I have other scenarios where we have kids dancing on the stage and other such activities, so curtains are opening and closing as each scene transitions. 

 

So, what you are saying is that I have to add the micro module to only the scenes where the curtains are closed (where the micro module needs to be ON). And that I must turn off those scenes before switching to another scene. Think about that. What that means is all the lights are turning OFF between scenes. Also, when I move between two scenes where I need the micro module ON for both, the curtain will open and close as I turn a scene off before moving to the next scene.

 

I really don't believe this is how the system is intended to function. I can turn down or OFF all the lights I want by switching to a new scene (without turning the last scene OFF first), but I can't turn OFF the micro module (by turning ON a new scene). Also, why would the design team choose to put a slider switch for the micro module in the scene settings? I can adjust it to OFF, but it does not record that setting. Wouldn't it have been better to leave the switch out of the scene settings or disabled? That doesn't make any sense.

Let me also remind you that with the Insteon Hub, there were no issues in setting up a scene with the micro module in the OFF position. I thought the ISY was supposed to provide even greater control, not less.

 

Very disappointed.

[Teken]

Okay, let me get more specific. What you did not state, but what you are inferring is:

You CANNOT turn OFF the micro module by turning ON a scene.

 

Let me describe a real-life scenario.

I have multiple scenes in my theater. I have a group of devices (lights) that exists inside all those scenes. This allows me to easily control the lighting in the theater. There is a progression with a smooth transition between these scenes.

Scene 0 - All lights off, curtains open (micro module in the OFF position).

Scene 1 - All lights on, curtains closed (micro module in the ON position). People enter the room and get seated. 

Scene 2 - Some lights off, some lights dim to minimal lighting. Curtains open (micro module in the OFF position). Movie begins.

Scene 3 - Some lights brighten up, credits roll. Curtains remain open as music plays (micro module in the OFF position).

Scene 1 - All lights on, curtains closed (micro module in the ON position). People get up and leave.

Scene 0 - All lights off, curtains open (micro module in the OFF position).

 

Bear in mind I have other scenarios where we have kids dancing on the stage and other such activities, so curtains are opening and closing as each scene transitions. 

 

So, what you are saying is that I have to add the micro module to only the scenes where the curtains are closed (where the micro module needs to be ON). And that I must turn off those scenes before switching to another scene. Think about that. What that means is all the lights are turning OFF between scenes. Also, when I move between two scenes where I need the micro module ON for both, the curtain will open and close as I turn a scene off before moving to the next scene.

 

I really don't believe this is how the system is intended to function. I can turn down or OFF all the lights I want by switching to a new scene (without turning the last scene OFF first), but I can't turn OFF the micro module (by turning ON a new scene). Also, why would the design team choose to put a slider switch for the micro module in the scene settings? I can adjust it to OFF, but it does not record that setting. Wouldn't it have been better to leave the switch out of the scene settings or disabled? That doesn't make any sense.

Let me also remind you that with the Insteon Hub, there were no issues in setting up a scene with the micro module in the OFF position. I thought the ISY was supposed to provide even greater control, not less.

 

Very disappointed.

 

At this point I would humbly suggest you wait for UDI to engage you directly and to see and determine root cause. I suspect they will find something really small that caused all of this frustration.

 

Or worst case they will identify there is a need to update the firmware for this Micro Open-Close module.

[LeeG]

My sincere apologies, it was not until the last note that I understand the requirement. 

 

Some Scenes should have a Scene On turn the Micro Module On.  Other Scenes should have a Scene On turn the Micro Module Off.

 

I created the necessary Scene Responder link record with a 0% On Level.   The Scene On does turn the Micro Module Off with that Responder link record.  

 

This cannot be done with the ISY at this time.  Please discuss with UDI.

 

Very sorry it took this long for me to see the requirement.

[xjsimon]

Thanks for understanding guys. I'm still waiting for UDI to get back with me.

 

LeeG:

"I created the necessary Scene Responder link record with a 0% On Level.   The Scene On does turn the Micro Module Off with that Responder link record."

Am I misunderstanding, or were you successfully able to create a scene with the micro module in the OFF position? And did it retain that position?

[LeeG]

I did create the Responder link record with a 0% On Level but had to use a facility outside the ISY.  Once the Responder record is created with the 0% On Level the link record persists.  I have 2 Scenes, one with the Responder On Level for the Micro Module set to 100% On Level, and one with the Responder On Level for the Micro Module set to 0% On Level.  

 

The Scene with 100% On Level turns the Micro Module On with a Scene On.  The Scene with 0% On Level turns the Micro Module Off with a Scene On.

 

0 : 0FF8 : A2 00 22.80.0B FF 1F 01

1 : 0FF0 : E2 01 22.80.0B 01 00 01  

2 : 0FE8 : A2 59 22.80.0B FF 1F 01 - 100% On Level  

3 : 0FE0 : A2 5F 22.80.0B 00 1F 01 -  0% On Level  

4 : 0FD8 : 00 00 00.00.00 00 00 00

[LeeG]

The Scene was created with the ISY as any Scene would be.

 

Setting the Responder On Level in the link record to 0% On Level was done outside of the ISY.

 

I did this to confirm the Micro Module would use the 0% On Level to turn the Micro Module Off with an ISY Scene On command.   

[xjsimon]

The Scene was created with the ISY as any Scene would be.

 

Setting the Responder On Level in the link record to 0% On Level was done outside of the ISY.

 

I did this to confirm the Micro Module would use the 0% On Level to turn the Micro Module Off with an ISY Scene On command.   

Okay, I see. I wondered how you were doing such trickery. Thanks for taking the time to test that.

[xjsimon]

As an update, I got contacted by UDI who confirmed the problem (might be related to a newer version of micro modules). They will actively work to fix and put out a new firmware version.

 

Thanks for all the help.

[xjsimon]

Update: Michel from UDI remotely connected to my pc today and he and the team looked at the code and found a bug (that's been in the code for 3 years). He was logged in to my 4k screen and commented how small and hard it was to see the fonts on the app. He mentioned that's something they are going to fix with this as well. He says it will be fixed within a matter of days.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi xjsimon,

 

Thanks so very much for the update. Yes, indeed we are working on customized fonts and it's taken a little longer than expected mostly due to the Programs pane. We will probably have a not-so-polished version shortly as a stop-gap till we get everything working properly.

 

With kind regards,

Michel