Another 3-way question

[Gouldc]

Looking for some guidance on the setup of a 3-way light. I'm pretty sure I've nailed down what wire is what but am not sure how to connect my Insteon switch at each location. My desire is to install a 5 button controller in the load box with an on/off in the line box. I have attached pictures of both in hopes that someone can direct me. Installing a single switch is relatively straight forward but I'm lost when it comes to 3-way. The switch in the load box that i will be replacing is the one on the right (or top, sorry for the orientation).

Edited November 22, 2015 by Gouldc

[stusviews]

You will have to remove the fixture to change some connections. At the 2-gang switch box, you do have line (the bundle of black wires) and neutral (the bundle of black wires). The black screw on the 3-way switch is connected to line. The two wires (red & black) connected to brass screws are travelers. Connect the line to the Insteon device and to the black wire from the 3-wire cable. Connect the red wire to the load wire from the insteon device. Connect the neutrals.

 

Connect line and neutral of the Insteon device at the single-gang box to black and white. Cap (separately) the red wires.

 

At the fixture, connect all the white wires together. Connect all the black wire together. Connect the red wire from the 2-gang box to the fixture black wire. Cap the red wire from the single gang box.

 

To determine which 3-wire cable comes from which box: At the single-gang box, one wire is connected to a black screw. That wire is connected to the fixture black wire.

[Gouldc]

I appreciate the quick response Stu. I've wired as suggested and am left with a black load line on the 2-gang that is not connected to anything. I assume I cap this line?

 

Just turned the breaker on and the light is working but only from the line box (2-gang), the single switch has no LEDs and does not operate the light. To confirm I have connected the line (black), neutral (white) and ground; I have left the load from the instead and the red wire in the gang capped off. 

 

Because it never hurts to have pictures ....

Edited November 22, 2015 by Gouldc

[larryllix]

You will have to remove the fixture to change some connections. At the 2-gang switch box, you do have line (the bundle of black wires) and neutral (the bundle of black wires). The black screw on the 3-way switch is connected to line. The two wires (red & black) connected to brass screws are travelers. Connect the line to the Insteon device and to the black wire from the 3-wire cable. Connect the red wire to the load wire from the insteon device. Connect the neutrals.

 

Connect line and neutral of the Insteon device at the single-gang box to black and white. Cap (separately) the red wires.

 

At the fixture, connect all the white wires together. Connect all the black wire together. Connect the red wire from the 2-gang box to the fixture black wire. Cap the red wire from the single gang box.

 

To determine which 3-wire cable comes from which box: At the single-gang box, one wire is connected to a black screw. That wire is connected to the fixture black wire.

You have a few confused, yet.

[stusviews]

I appreciate the quick response Stu. I've wired as suggested and am left with a black load line on the 2-gang that is not connected to anything. I assume I cap this line?

 

At the 2-gang switch box, you do have line (the bundle of black wires) and neutral (the bundle of black wires). The black screw on the 3-way switch is connected to line. The two wires (red & black) connected to brass screws are travelers. Connect the line to the Insteon device and to the black wire from the 3-wire cable. Connect the red wire to the load wire from the insteon device.

 

  Thanks, Larry

Edited November 23, 2015 by stusviews

[Gouldc]

Gotcha, quite the battle on my hands here. So, I have tied in the black wire from the 3 wire cable in the 2-gang and have confirmed that the line and neutral are connected properly at the single gang (at least from what I can tell). Unfortunately the same outcome, light works fine from the double gang but no life at the single.

Edited November 23, 2015 by Gouldc

[larryllix]

  Thanks, Larry

I think I got it right!  It took me some time to figure out what was happening and you can't see  all the cables coming in clearly.   I figured the OP might sitting in a panic.

 

Been a while for me with this 3 way stuff.

[larryllix]

Gotcha, quite the battle on my hands here. So, I have tied in the black wire from the 3 wire cable in the 2-gang and have confirmed that the line and neutral are connected properly at the single gang (at least from what I can tell). Unfortunately the same outcome, light works fine from the double gang but no life at the single.

The three way part is all done in programs or for speed, by linking now. Wiring doesn't provide any control from the 'extra switch'.

 

Do this all in ISY and it will dump the links onto the switches.

 

First factory reset both switches so there is no strange happenings  with them. After factory reset link them to ISY with the New Insteon icon click.

 

There is a process to create a 3-way scene but I have not done it and can\t remember the process  exactly. Search for it recently on the forum or possibly on the Wiki. If no success wait until somebody that is familiar with this comes along.

[Gouldc]

Thanks Larry, should there be lights on the switch though, even without programming?

 

 

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[larryllix]

Did you change the wiring in the lamp connection box?

Is the isolation tab switch pushed in at the bottom of the SwitchLinc?

[Gouldc]

Changes have been made at the fixture, all black to black, white to white and red from the double gangs to black at the fixture. Isolation tab at the bottom of the switchlinc?

 

 

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[larryllix]

... Isolation tab at the bottom of the switchlinc?

 

 

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Yes.

Is the breaker turned back on and the other hard switch should work indicating power to the black and white.

[Gouldc]

You bet, breaker on and the light working. I'll have to search a little on the isolation switch.

 

 

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[larryllix]

You bet, breaker on and the light working. I'll have to search a little on the isolation switch.

 

 

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The isolation switch at the bottom of the SwitchLinc just needs to NOT be pulled out.

[Gouldc]

That's the small clear button correct? I have another switch that I'll through in to rule out defect.

 

 

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[larryllix]

That's the small clear button correct? I have another switch that I'll through in to rule out defect.

 

 

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Yes

 

Be careful not to break it if you pull it out. It only pulls out about 1/8" at most. Just push it in.

 

After that I recommend that you turn the breaker off, check it with the hard switch for power off. Trace your wires back to the black and white incoming cable in the middle of the double box and the black to the other switch. Pull on wires in the wire nuts to see if stranded wires have slipped off the solid ones in the wire nuts.

 

Do you have an AC voltmeter/multimeter?

[Gouldc]

Thanks Larry. Button pushed in so we're good there. When you say check it with a hard switch do you mean install a normal switch in the single gang?

 

I do have a voltmeter and a general knowledge of electronics. I can check my resistance from box to box. As I understand it white and black should connected to both switches therefore resistance between the white and black from box to box should be roughly nil.

 

 

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[larryllix]

Thanks Larry. Button pushed in so we're good there. When you say check it with a hard switch do you mean install a normal switch in the single gang?

 

I do have a voltmeter and a general knowledge of electronics. I can check my resistance from box to box. As I understand it white and black should connected to both switches therefore resistance between the white and black from box to box should be roughly nil.

 

 

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Hard switch is the switch in the double box beside the KPL that can be used to test for power. A tested meter is better though.

 

geeesh. All this time I thought we were talking about SwitchLinc switches. The wiring is the same though.

 

Pull your isolation switches out to hard disconnect the KPL electronics and use your ohmmeter. The incoming power should simply supply the KPL in the double box, the hardware switch, and then scoot across the blacks and whites through the fixture box, over to the single box Insteon device. If it doesn't get there I would check in your lamp fixture for good connections again.

Edited November 23, 2015 by larryllix

[stusviews]

Do not install a standard switch in the single-gang box. Check the voltage between the black and white wires at the single-gang box.

[Gouldc]

Going to drop the fixture and have a look as there's some funky stuff going on. The way I see things connected right now is the line and load from the first switch is essentially tied together at the fixture. The hot and neutral from the second switch are tied to the first switch via the fixture

 

When I power off the first switch the second switch leds activate for a minute or two the shut off for a minute or two before powering on again.

 

I'll report back I after I've dropped the fixture.

 

 

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[Gouldc]

Okay guys, the marathon continues. I did find a mid wire in the fixture. The current state is this; switch one in the double gang has the line wire connected to black and the load wire connected to red. At the fixture all black is connected and all white is connected as well as the red from switch one connected to black. Switch two has white and black connected to the fixture white and black.

 

The problem I now have is the light will not shut off. This makes sense to me as the load and line connections from the insteon are now attached at the fixture. With the load wire connected to black at the fixture it is not controlling on and off. Make sense?

 

 

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[larryllix]

You lost me there somewhat but

The red wire from the double box should be connected to the KPL over to the fixture onto the black screw or black wire on the fixture.

 

 

    Double                          Fixture                   Single

     Box                                                             Box

-------------------                   ------------              --------------

feedBk - B -KPL B - B       B - B                      B - KPL B

feedW - W -KPL W -W     W - lampW - W      W- KPL W

        KPL R - R                  R -  lampB            

                                          n/c -  R                   R - n/c

                                                                         n/c - KPL R

Edited November 23, 2015 by larryllix

[Gouldc]

A million thanks. I can't imagine how challenging it is trying to help with a brutal description of the problem and a few pictures. I took another look at the fixture wiring. There are two lamps and I missed the black wire to one of them. I ended up connecting that fixture wire to the bundle of hot wires, not the load control wire from the switch, essentially leaving it on all of the time.

 

I have now linked both switches and everything appears to be functioning normally. Whew, my (I mean our) first and likely let 3 way switch!

 

 

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[stusviews]

If you did not drop the fixture from the start, then you did not follow the instructions at all. If you did not drop the fixture from the start, then don't expect a working system. If you did not drop the fixture from the start, then consider yourself lucky that you didn't destroy something.

[Gouldc]

Agree on all fronts. The fixture was dropped in the beginning just missed one of the two lie to 2 separate lamps within the fixture. Many lessons learned here.

 

 

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