INSTEON ALMOST BURNED MY HOUSE DOWN!!! Now ISY Problem

[Teken]

The Chinese also use "CE" but when complained to claim that their C and E are further apart even if the same font style is used.

 

The fridge and appliance scenario is an interesting one and makes real sense. Thanks.

 

I absolutely have no words for that statement . . . LMAO

 

*Ladies and gentlemen - we have a 5 minute stand up comedy act c/o Larryllix* 

[Teken]

The fridge and appliance scenario is an interesting one and makes real sense. Thanks.

 

Back in the day I had multi purpose outlets that could be configured for fail safe vs fail secure. When they stopped making them I used the Appliance Linc which upon power loss would default to a off state. I used this for several appliances in my home as a method to protect the appliance against quick on-off conditions seen in the past.

 

Using this method has protected some of my very expensive electronics and appliances like clothes washer.

[jerlands]

I absolutely have no words for that statement . . . LMAO

 

*Ladies and gentlemen - we have a 5 minute stand up comedy act c/o Larryllix* 

 

No joke.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CE_marking

 

CE --> Chinese Export

 

 

 

Jon...

Edited December 4, 2015 by jerlands

[Cormacs]

I absolutely have no words for that statement . . . LMAO

 

*Ladies and gentlemen - we have a 5 minute stand up comedy act c/o Larryllix*

I have also heard of this. They claim it stands for "Chinese Export" and it's not the same logo because the C and E are closer together. Funny it uses the same font. Not to say that insteon products are using this deception.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Cormacs]

No joke.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CE_marking

 

CE --> Chinese Export

 

 

 

Jon...

Beat me by 3 minutes lol.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Teken]

You guys are too much . . .

 

As an aside I wanted to clarify the fail safe vs fail secure terminology with respect to security. Specifically in automotive use for starter, ignition, inhibitors using a relay.

 

When a relay is wired with a fail safe configuration should the alarm fail or be compromised the relay is Normally Closed (N.C) this would still allow the vehicle to be started. In a fail secure relay configuration should the alarm system be compromised the relay is Normally Open (N.O) and requires the alarm to be present to close the relay contact to allow the vehicle to start.

 

I just wanted to put that out there because those 12 volt guys would be all over my aszz for not calling it out properly in that use case. 

Edited December 4, 2015 by Teken

[stusviews]

Maybe I am the only one who sees this differently.  Yes, nobody should throw a flamible object on a heat generating lamp, that was my daughter's fault.  This only poses a real danger is someone TURNS THIS LIGHT ON.  If someone manually turned this light on, they would be in the room and would have probably noticed the problem early either by smell or when right when the smoke alarm went off.  I live in a remote area and it took 20+ minutes for the fire dept to respond to the event.  if the fire did take hold, the house would likely have been fully engulfed by the time they got there.

 

Yes, these switches are controllable, but a controllable device should be just that......under the complete control of the owner of them, either by remote apps/software, or by the programs they write in their controlling devices, like the ISY.  I had NO CONTROL of the behavior of what happens to these switches when the power is lost and restored.  I would NEVER create a program that would automatically turn on a switched outlet (a common and accepted feature in many homes) because you never know what is plugged into them and having automatically turn on for any reason is something common sense would prevent me from doing. I had called smarthome before this nearly castastrphic event happened, explained how I thought it was ABSURD that they would design a device in this manner, and they blew me off saying "that is how they are designed to behave, it cannot be changed, and there isn't a problem).....which made NO SENSE because the early dimmer devices defauted to the OFF state.  If this fire would have been serious, I am sure my insurance company would have persued this further with the maker of an electrical device that can turn loads on RANDOMLY (power loss events are random).  

 

This makes me think.  Do insteon devices carry the UL certification? I thought this was mandatory on devices such as this used in American home electrical hard-wired devices.  What is that weird "FTL" logo on them mean?

 

The device is remote controllable. Have you ever turned something on of off inadvertently by remote control?

[Adaptel]

The device is remote controllable. Have you ever turned something on of off inadvertently by remote control?

With my lighting......NO.  There is no reason I would turn lights on when I am not home.  But if I did by accident, that would be my fault......but no matter how many people disagree with me, I still think having a switch that is capable of RANDOMLY powering on a 120v device (that can be up to 500W in these early switchlincs) is just unacceptable.  Yes, that is what it boils down to....the original Insteon Switchlincs turned large current loads on randomly (like i said, power outages are random) and would you buy any type of switch that turned your stuff on RANDOMLY.  Remember, this was around 6-8 years ago when I bought these switches and there wasn't any device like the ISY 994i available to write programs to monitor stuff...just the crappy windows software that barely worked.  You couldn't really control your network easily outside the home, The microprocessor in these older Insteon devices DID HAVE EEPROM MEMORY IN THEM and it was laziness, or a hurry-up job on Smarthome's part to have them go to market without writing "safe" or "finished" firmware that would remember the pre power failure on/off state and rush  them to market so Suckers like me would buy an unfinished product....and be punished by supporting them so early.  I am so pissed off becasue when I talked to smarthome after the $500 electric bill incident, I asked if I would be able to send my devices in for a firmware upgrade, or if they would work with me at all to do an exchange....and they basically told me to go F-myself.  

 

I don't know why anyone would use an Insteon relay switch to control a fridge or sump pump and think powering ON after a power loss can be justified in any way.  Bottom line is that there is a reason that the newer switches REMEMBER their last state during a power failure.....because that is the only thing that makes sense and the original hardware was CAPABLE OF DOING THIS.   Even a $1.79 standard decora switch remembers it pre power failure state, this is how Insteon devices behave NOW, at it is how they should have behaved from day 1......period.  Nobody will convince me otherwise.  Anyone want to buy some Insteon devices that will randomly turn stuff on when you are not home?  I've got 20 of them I'll give you a good deal on!!!!!!!!!

[elvisimprsntr]

But, at the risk of side-tracking the conversation, this does bring up an important and interesting issue regarding home automation in general: liability.

 

In particular, we've had a lot of threads involving controlling heating equipment - perhaps because I live where it gets really cold in the winter I'm particularly sensitive to the risks. Not to mention that I live in a rather litigious nation. We've had a number of threads that have discussed using ApplianceLincs and other On/Off relay devices to control pumps, blowers, and the like... I just wonder when Joe Average follows instructions on some post to do this, and comes home to burst pipes and a frozen house, will he sue UDI? SmartHome? Or hire a lawyer to try to track down the posters on this board and sue them?

 

Just wondering about the legal aspects of all this...

Finally someone else with common sense!

 

This has been one of my biggest arguments when I see people asking how to automatically close ones garage door, tap into their fire protection system, or people on RPi forums using their Rube Goldberg contraption to control their furnace or high voltage lighting. People will brush it off even after I post articles of fires, deaths, and homeowners getting sued. If nothing else, I have a clear conscience for warning people.

 

Money and common sense doesn't always go together. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.

Edited December 5, 2015 by elvisimprsntr

[madcodger]

You make a very good point, and when planning for the automation of various things around the home (or anywhere) one must think about the consequences BEYOND a normal situation. I have, for example, automated a pellet stove by connecting it to a Nest thermostat, which "talks" to Homeseer, the Elk, and through those to the ISY (talk about some Rube Goldberg caused by lack of ISY - Nest compatibility!). But the safety devices on the stove (Hi Temp limit switch, Low Temp / Proof of Fire switch, etc) remain intact and capable of overriding any of the automated features. Thus, they operate the same as a regular thermostat, but with greater ability to control and monitor the appliance.

 

The same is true of my garage doors: They can be closed if left open at night, without a human present. But the safety devices designed to stop them if a child or animal (or even a large toy) is in the way remain intact. And if they fail to close, I can be notified. Finally, anyone that proceeds with any change to their home or other environment should do so at their OWN risk. We are for the most part amateur hobbyists, and our sharing of experience and opinion should always be taken as such. And even for the professionals here, they are not seeing your situation live, in person. Our hobby involves electricity and the automation of our environment. It is NOT without risk! But those risks can be prudently and sensibly managed. And if you want no risk, I'm not sure of any hobby or activity that would suit you.

Edited December 5, 2015 by madcodger

[oberkc]

. And if you want no risk, I'm not sure of any hobby or activity that would suit you.

 

Getting out of bed has risk.  One cannot be alive without risk.

 

Still, there have been some good points to consider here.

[elvisimprsntr]

The same is true of my garage doors: They can be closed if left open at night, without a human present. But the safety devices designed to stop them if a child or animal (or even a large toy) is in the way remain intact. And if they fail to close, I can be notified.

This is one of those examples. Never ever automatically close a garage door, regardless of what stop sensors are installed. There is a documented case where a small child fell, laying under the beam height, was crushed under the weight of the door which failed to reverse direction. The parents sued the Uncle, the manufacturer Sears, and the contractor who installed the garage door.

 

Also take the situation where you park/stop your vehicle half way in the garage, with the beam under the vehicle. Even if the door will reverse direction, I'm sure it will still damage the vehicle.

 

If I leave the garage door open, I send myself a notification. Then I confirm the door is clear with a live camera feed BEFORE manually closing the door. The rolling current date/time superimposed on the camera feed, by the camera itself and not a NVR, confirms the image is not stale.

 

For manufacturers who provide the capability to automatically close a garage door, I suggest you read the fine print in the limited liability section. I also suggest you talk to your insurance company. I'm sure they will use it as an excuse to raise your rates or drop you altogether.

 

My conscience is clear. Is yours?

Edited December 5, 2015 by elvisimprsntr

[Adaptel]

Is there any other electronic device that powers on and off, either by a manual switch or by remote control, that powers itself on after a power failure when it was off before the power went out? Would anyone be ok with their tv or home AV receiver behaving this way? 

[larryllix]

With an ISY I don't want devices to remember their state after a power failure. I want them Off.

 

ISY can look after restoring things to any state that I desire when the power returns. If things are real critical other monitoring devices can be used. eg. Dark sensor in MS can detect of light burnt out, Failure detector can detect if pump failed.

 

Most of our devices are not very critical provided we observe the warnings on the connected devices.

 

BTW: Did any discussion ever land on your OP complaint? I didn't see any while we destroyed your thread.

 

Now back to my EasyBake Oven cooking.

Edited December 5, 2015 by larryllix

[Teken]

I don't know why anyone would use an Insteon relay switch to control a fridge or sump pump and think powering ON after a power loss can be justified in any way.

 

Anyone want to buy some Insteon devices that will randomly turn stuff on when you are not home?  I've got 20 of them I'll give you a good deal on!!!!!!!!!

 

I just wanted to clarify my reply and examples were related to the Insteon Appliance Lincs and not any sort of switches etc. In the past Smartlabs offered these devices in either resume on, or resume off.

 

This behavior seemed to flip flop over the years in various iterations of the hardware. Later someone had a flash of genius moment and said how about we make it remember the devices last known state?

 

That was a epic day for lots of us . . .

 

As noted having the ability for a device to come on, remain off, offers a user different solutions for use cases that are needed. As I indicated I have several of the resume off when power is lost and applied for my clothes washer and other expansive appliances.

 

Lastly, if you're serious about getting rid of some of those switches I am sure I can find a nice home for some of them. Send me a PM and lets see if we can find a good middle ground for the hardware. 

[stusviews]

Is there any other electronic device that powers on and off, either by a manual switch or by remote control, that powers itself on after a power failure when it was off before the power went out? Would anyone be ok with their tv or home AV receiver behaving this way? 

 

Burglar alarms, fail-secure locks, electric hot water heaters to name a few.

[Adaptel]

Burglar alarms, fail-secure locks, electric hot water heaters to name a few.

Gimme a break, are you serious with this nonsense? You are saying that if you SHUT OFF your water heater so it cools down to room temperature, it will turn itself back on when when the power goes out and is then restored?  That is the most idiotic thing I have ever heard.  NO, it resumes is AUTOMATIC OPERATION based on a thermostat if it is turned on, just like it was before the power failure.  Burgler alarms have a backup battery and continue to run when the power goes out, even able to report the power loss event, and resume doing what they were doing exactly like they were before a power failure.  I have a power switch on my ELK M1 Gold and if I turn it off, it stays OFF no matter how many times the power fails.  It doesn't magically turn itself on.  Where in anyone's home do they have a so-called "fail secure lock"?!?!?! 

 

So, if the behavior of my old Insteon switches, that almost burned my house down, are so great.......and now that Smarthome has changed this automatic-on behavior, my old switches should be worth a fortune because they have such a great feature that is no longer available in newer units, right?

[Adaptel]

BTW: Did any discussion ever land on your OP complaint? I didn't see any while we destroyed your thread.

 

 

See the post above to the answer to your question.  Answer is a big fat NO!  Posting in this forum has given me absolutely no useful information besides the first reply which informed me that Smarthome removed the ALL ON and ALL OFF functionality in their newer switches.  Everyone else seems to think that devices being able to randomly turn themselves on when you are not home is a great thing.  Ridiculous.  I am dropping out of this thread and conversation.

[larryllix]

Gimme a break, are you serious with this nonsense? You are saying that if you SHUT OFF your water heater so it cools down to room temperature, it will turn itself back on when when the power goes out and is then restored?  That is the most idiotic thing I have ever heard.  NO, it resumes is AUTOMATIC OPERATION based on a thermostat if it is turned on, just like it was before the power failure.  Burgler alarms have a backup battery and continue to run when the power goes out, even able to report the power loss event, and resume doing what they were doing exactly like they were before a power failure.  I have a power switch on my ELK M1 Gold and if I turn it off, it stays OFF no matter how many times the power fails.  It doesn't magically turn itself on.  Where in anyone's home do they have a so-called "fail secure lock"?!?!?! 

 

So, if the behavior of my old Insteon switches, that almost burned my house down, are so great.......and now that Smarthome has changed this automatic-on behavior, my old switches should be worth a fortune because they have such a great feature that is no longer available in newer units, right?

Relax.

 

Water heater "automatic operation being resumed" was the implied function by Stu. He knows his stuff. Shutting your water heater is not done at the thermostat but at the breaker or switch. If you had HA control on it that is exactly where it would "shut it off", not "turn the temperature up and down".

[oberkc]

Answer is a big fat NO!

 

!!!???

 

You found out that this was a characteristic of older switchlincs.  A couple offered suggestions regarding ways you could exploit the ISY to help mitigate the risk.  You learned that the ALL OFF feature has been eliminated and suggestions on alternatives.  What is it that you want folks to say at this point?  What questions do you have that are not answered? 

Edited December 6, 2015 by oberkc

[paulbates]

I am dropping out of this thread and conversation.

 

Great.  For future reference, this forum is for earnest exploration of HA ideas and problem solving using the ISY.

 

If this is an insteon product problem / rant, take it to their forum.

[Adaptel]

Great.  For future reference, this forum is for earnest exploration of HA ideas and problem solving using the ISY.

 

If this is an insteon product problem / rant, take it to their forum.

I don't think the majority of the comments, and totally unrelated arguments and opinions in this thread represent "earnest exploration and problem solving".  This topic spun out of control because I was pissed that I tried to solve my RANDOM ON problem by purchasing new switches and now MY ISY would issue an ALL OFF command, my new devices would NOT turn off, although they would show as being OFF in the ISY console.  My F'n house almost burned down and, yes, I was pissed, but if you read my ORIGNIAL POST, I was inquiring about what appeared to be an ISY problem.  In my mind, there is a problem with the ISY that needs to be addressed in firmware updates.  It should either stop being able to issue ALL OFF or ALL ON commands, or know which devices will ignore these commands so that it reports the status correctly.  Don't know why I posted back again, because I am just opening myself from being flamed.  Never been so unwelcomed in a forum.

[stusviews]

This hot water heater controller will apply power when power is restored--even if it was turned off prior to losing power.

 

I fully agree that having the ApplianceLinc to default to On was not a good idea. But, I can definitely think of some uses for that behavior.

 

BTW, the ApplianceLinc Owner's Manual does state that the device will return to the On state if power is removed

 

Restoring Power to ApplianceLinc
ApplianceLinc stores all of its settings in non-volatile memory, even when unplugged. In the event of a

power loss, ApplianceLinc will automatically return the device/lamp being controlled to the on/off position

it had before the power was interrupted. Similarly, if ApplianceLinc is plugged into an outlet controlled by

a wall switch and you turn the switch off, ApplianceLinc will turn the device/lamp back on to its prior on/off

position when you turn the wall switch back on.

Edited December 6, 2015 by stusviews

[larryllix]

OK you need to focus and attempt to resolve your problems with the help of many other knowledgeable users here or you can pack your stuff and run away from it. You spent a lot of money to get a good HA system and most of us believe you did, with Insteon and ISY.

 

Yes Insteon has some problems and you have some older units that may really stink, in comparison to newer revisions, but you can't blame an accident of somebody mistakenly violating an appliance application on the power grid, your electrical distribution panel, your wiring, Insteon devices, or your ISY HA. Appliances are created to withstand being used 24x7 without danger if the warnings are adhered to.

 

I hear your frustrations, and you aired them loudly, but it sounds like you were well on your way to resolving all your problems before your first post here. Figure out what you really want out of forum users, like yourself, and let's move forward. We have a lot of expertise here. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.

 

In summary

- education of the causing party has been done

- the possibility of future hazards have been reduced with lower power bulbs.

- ISY boot up routines can be used to alleviate some of the Insteon shortcoming (On after power drop)

- Sectionalising your big loads can help with generator shock using existing Insteon switches.

- replacing bad Insteon switches with newer units will help the ALL ON load shock

- replacing large lighting loads with lower power as money and technology gets better will help down the road.

 

At this point I am not sure if you have communication problems with your new devices or not. I don't use any All Off commands. I use a scene to turn all units off and it always works.

 

Is there other items people can help you with or did I miss anything? Try to remember that text only mediums are not good conveyors of information without lots of detail and no sidetracking of subject matter. Misunderstandings are easy to create, and will sidetrack your ultimate goal, to use the brains of the experts and massive help  available here.

[madcodger]

My conscience is clear. Is yours?

Well, the worst thing that has happened to me personally is that one of the doors actually did close on a car once, the doors sensed the resistance, and reversed. Well, actually they tried about three times to close as I watched from a distance, but the car kept winning. No damage to anything.

 

That said, while my conscience seems to be doing OK today, thank you for asking, I suppose I CAN just notify us that the garage doors are open, I actually do have a camera that looks at them, it actually does have a rolling date/time displayed to the second, and I can close them from any number of devices. So, tell ya what - I'll convert. I am officially at the altar, hereby repent, and shall amend my garage door routine.

Edited December 6, 2015 by madcodger