Dual Band questions - powerline - RF

[Broyd]

Does a dual band device, for example a 2457D2 LampLinc Dimmer, repeat a powerline only signal, say from a 2450 I/O Linc in the RF band?

 

If the 2457D2 dimmer receives an an Insteon RF signal, does it repeat that signal on the powerline?

 

I am trying to improve the communication between a PLM and the 2450. Will using a 2450D2 help to improve the bi-directional communication between a PLM and the 2450?

 

Thanks! 

[Brian H]

It should.

The Range Extender they sell. Is a 2457D2 PCB with out the dimmer components. In a case with no external output access.

Some here say get a 2457D2 even if you only need Range Extending. Make sense as if you ever need an extra 2457D2 you have it and the Range Extender can't do any load control.

[paulbates]

Does a dual band device, for example a 2457D2 LampLinc Dimmer, repeat a powerline only signal, say from a 2450 I/O Linc in the RF band?

 

If the 2457D2 dimmer receives an an Insteon RF signal, does it repeat that signal on the powerline?

 

I am trying to improve the communication between a PLM and the 2450. Will using a 2450D2 help to improve the bi-directional communication between a PLM and the 2450?

 

Thanks! 

 

Yes, the switch will repeat insteon rf signals to the power line.

 

The answer to the last question is "hard to say". Putting in a dual band switch won't hurt, but it doesn't necessarily help any device on any circuit. If the switch is on the same circuit as the iolinc, most likely it will help.  Noise on the line could be a problem and the 2457 might not overcome that. 

 

Can you describe specific problems you are having with the iolinc? It will be easier to address that way

 

Paul

[Broyd]

Thanks Brian!

 

I am trying to find out some basics about those devices and am wondering about their powerline / RF capabilities and just what signals get repeated (echoed) and to where.  Any ideas?

[stusviews]

Dual-band device repeat both power line and RF signals even if the signal they receive is only RF or only power line.

[Broyd]

Hi Paul,

 

The initial problems I had were a failure of the PLM to write consistantly to the I/O Linc. After looking carefully, I noted that the I/O Linc and the PLM were on opposite legs of the split phase. I switched some circuit breakers around in the electrical panel and that fixed up a lot of my problems. The two units are not that far apart electrically - about 12 feet.

 

But once in a while the PLM - I/O Linc spend several seconds (3 or 4) doing cleanup? (as viewed in the event viewer level 3) and this communication seems to interfere with some X-10 commands being sent by the PLM. 

 

This setup is a doorbell detect. Once the doorbell press has been detected, I use some programming in the 994 to ring some X-10 chimes. 

[stusviews]

I switched some circuit breakers around in the electrical panel and that fixed up a lot of my problems.

 

Bad idea. You may be placing an undue load on the neutral wire (e.g., as a return for two circuits on the same leg of the split, single-phase electric supply). The correct procedure is to bridge the opposite legs by installing at least two dual-band devices, one on each leg as indicated by the 4-tap/beacon test.

[Broyd]

Thanks stusviews for the heads up.

 

I carefully checked the two 120 volt circuits for which I interchanged the breakers before I exchanged them. The circuits are not tied in any way. And the loads on the two circuits are very similar and very light. The neutrals of each circuit both go back to the neutral buss and are not related in any other way. There was no other way I could get the 994 and the 2450 on the same leg of the split phase.

 

I have very carefully mapped out every lamp and outlet and other devices (stove, hot water tank etc.)  in my house and know exactly which breakers control each one. There was no problem making this exchange and it did cure the 'could not write to device' messages that I was previously getting.

 

I did install two dual band devices across the phase split before I exchanged the breakers and the problem was still there; that's what lead me to do the breaker exchange.

 

Edited for spelling.

[paulbates]

Hi Paul,

 

The initial problems I had were a failure of the PLM to write consistantly to the I/O Linc. After looking carefully, I noted that the I/O Linc and the PLM were on opposite legs of the split phase. I switched some circuit breakers around in the electrical panel and that fixed up a lot of my problems. The two units are not that far apart electrically - about 12 feet.

 

But once in a while the PLM - I/O Linc spend several seconds (3 or 4) doing cleanup? (as viewed in the event viewer level 3) and this communication seems to interfere with some X-10 commands being sent by the PLM. 

 

This setup is a doorbell detect. Once the doorbell press has been detected, I use some programming in the 994 to ring some X-10 chimes. 

 

The 'once in a while' part of the problem suggests intermittent noise, given that they are so close. If its blinking frequently sometimes, that suggests insteon is retrying. Did the level 3 event viewer tell you how many remaining hops there are when there's a problem?

 

The thing to check for are things nearby, electrically, that intermittently run... things with motors (fridge, freezer, furnace, sump pump)... electronics like a tv, or lighting like low voltage, LED or florescent?

 

On more question, did you formally bridge your electrical legs... either with a signalinc, or by running the bridging test built into RF devices? If you have the PLM on one leg, and put the switch you are looking at on the other leg, that might help if both devices are close to the panel.

 

Paul

[Teken]

As others have indicated one of the first things to do is ensure the two sides of the electrical feed is properly coupled / bridged using the 4 tap beacon test to confirm.

 

Regardless of all the coupling in the world it will not supersede the need to identify any noise makers / signal suckers in the home. As Brian H noted I am a huge fan of the dual use and given the choice of the Range Extender (RE). I would choose a lamp linc / On-Off relay module first over a RE unit.

 

The On-Off relay module would be my preferred choice given it has some of the latest firmware embedded features. The major one worth noting is having the ability to turn off power line or RF communications. I surmise that all future Insteon devices will have this feature in the not too distant future.

 

As this would allow Insteon to mimic Z-Wave as a RF only hardware device. 

 

The over all intent is that it should technically negate any sort of power line interference from impacting the signal from getting to the 2413S PLM.

 

Having said this it also assumes Smartlabs will grab a brain and change the position of the antenna and also increase the RF power output. RF power output has been increased in at least three items and this is good to see because the existing output is much too low.

 

This has been seen on the HUB II, Dual Outlet, On-Off Relay Module.

[Broyd]

The beacon test results seem confusing to me. The LEDs flash but even with all dimmers starting in the off state, I see both red and green led flashes from these devices. I will do more testing to try and figure out what the beacon test is telling me.

 

As I have already mentioned, I know exactly which breaker feeds every individual light, outlet, or device. The test I made was a100% positive one. I measured the voltage at each circuit breaker in the electrical panel; if I am on the same leg of the split phase, I see 0 volts; across the split and I see 242 volts.

 

I will make a concerted effort to capture the diagnostic level 3 info. Hopefully if I post these diagnostics someone can explain the listing to me.

[Brian H]

If the module is Off the LED is Red.

In the Beacon test if the module you are looking at is flashing Green it is on the opposite phase. Periodically the module doing the Beacon Test pauses and restarts. The module you are looking at momentarily goes Red as it was Off before the test was started. Then flashes Green again when the test starts again.

 

Another possibility is the Insteon RF signal to the module you are looking at during the test is marginal. The led may act that way. I have a 2443 Access Point that the led stops flashing if I stand in front of it. When the test is run from the Access Point in the other end of the house.

[stusviews]

You really need to observe only one pair of devices showing the correct response consistently to achieve successful bridging. Additional dual-band devices serve to increase reliability and range of the Insteon signal.

[Teken]

The beacon test results seem confusing to me. The LEDs flash but even with all dimmers starting in the off state, I see both red and green led flashes from these devices. I will do more testing to try and figure out what the beacon test is telling me.

 

As I have already mentioned, I know exactly which breaker feeds every individual light, outlet, or device. The test I made was a100% positive one. I measured the voltage at each circuit breaker in the electrical panel; if I am on the same leg of the split phase, I see 0 volts; across the split and I see 242 volts.

 

I will make a concerted effort to capture the diagnostic level 3 info. Hopefully if I post these diagnostics someone can explain the listing to me.

 

This is a very common mistake made by others which is simple to resolve. Place all of the responding lamp linc in the *On* position.

 

When you initiate the 4 tap beacon test if any dual band device is on the opposite side of the electrical leg it will continue to show a green LED.

 

If the lamp linc is on the same electrical leg it will flash red and alternate with current state of *On* green LED. This is the easiest way to see the true colored LED.

 

Also it should be noted unlike other dual band devices the lamp linc does not have a 4 minute timer. Meaning if you use a lamp linc as the initiator it will continue to send out the RF beacon test until you push the set button.

[Broyd]

On further investigation of how my electrical panel is constructed, if A and B represent the two legs of the split phase supply, then single width breakers are connected as A A B B A A B B etc. starting at the top of both the left and right sides of breakers in the panel and moving towards the bottom of the panel. The power connection between an A A or B B pair of breakers is very short, about 3/4 of an inch. I relocated the circuit breakers again so the the ISY-994i and the I/OLinc are on an adjacent B B pair. The bi direction communication between these two devices has been completely cleaned up; the insteon powerline signal does not even have to travel back to the main circuit panel buss. I am not sure why bridging the split phase with the new lamp link dimmers wasn't as successful.

 

Thanks Teken for the information on the beacon test. I tested this and I now have a much better understanding of how this works. 

[Teken]

On further investigation of how my electrical panel is constructed, if A and B represent the two legs of the split phase supply, then single width breakers are connected as A A B B A A B B etc. starting at the top of both the left and right sides of breakers in the panel and moving towards the bottom of the panel. The power connection between an A A or B B pair of breakers is very short, about 3/4 of an inch. I relocated the circuit breakers again so the the ISY-994i and the I/OLinc are on an adjacent B B pair. The bi direction communication between these two devices has been completely cleaned up; the insteon powerline signal does not even have to travel back to the main circuit panel buss. I am not sure why bridging the split phase with the new lamp link dimmers wasn't as successful.

 

Thanks Teken for the information on the beacon test. I tested this and I now have a much better understanding of how this works. 

 

Glad everything worked out in the end my friend.

 

Please do share the same information to others should the topic ever arise.

[stusviews]

Just for the record, the single width breakers you refer to are often referred to as half-height circuit breakers.