icerabbit Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 My insteon network has been pretty stable in operation. I am having communication issues with as of recently, with a 2447SA1 NO which is attached to our electric hot water heater. We frequently now have no hot water. Which means it is either not getting the message, or it gets the message but doesn't turn on.The light on the unit is red. Press the button. It turns green. The water heater comes on. If I go in my browser, click ON OFF it responds and updates. Since there's been no electrical changes or such, and we actually have added a few more lamplincs here and there, I'm a bit at a loss as to why there may be an automated communication issue.Can somebody verify that this active program should run fine? And does anybody have directions for me as to how I might troubleshoot communications?Thank you. Hot Water MBR - [ID 0005][Parent 0001] If From 5:45:00AM For 1 hour Or From 8:05:00PM For 3 hours Or On Sat, Sun From 10:00:00AM For 6 hours Then Set 'Water Heater MBA' 100% Else Set 'Water Heater MBA' Off This is supposed to run the Hot Water heater off peak Daily after 8 PM for three hours. Top up the temperature in the morning before 7. Due to added hot water use on the weekend, we now also have it on through the daytime sat sun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerlands Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Open Event Viewer to level 3 and activate the relay a couple times, copy to clipboard (icon bottom menu bar in event viewer) and post in message. Jon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icerabbit Posted January 5, 2016 Author Share Posted January 5, 2016 Thanks for the very fast reply, Jon! Found event viewer. I can see communication is struggling ... somehow? Intermittently ... a few times it goes on/off immediately. Other times it takes a couple tries? Tue 01/05/2016 15:21:30 : [ 1A C7 62 1] ST 255 Tue 01/05/2016 15:21:36 : [ 1A C7 62 1] ST 0 Tue 01/05/2016 15:44:54 : [ 35 4A B5 1] ST 255 Tue 01/05/2016 15:49:34 : [INST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 1A C7 62 0F 11 FF Tue 01/05/2016 15:49:34 : [INST-ACK ] 02 62 1A.C7.62 0F 11 FF 06 LTONRR (FF) Tue 01/05/2016 15:49:38 : [D2D EVENT ] Event [1A C7 62 1] [ERR] [1] uom=0 prec=-1 Tue 01/05/2016 15:49:38 : [ 1A C7 62 1] ERR 1 Tue 01/05/2016 15:49:52 : [INST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 1A C7 62 0F 11 FF Tue 01/05/2016 15:49:52 : [INST-ACK ] 02 62 1A.C7.62 0F 11 FF 06 LTONRR (FF) Tue 01/05/2016 15:50:01 : [INST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 1A C7 62 0F 13 00 Tue 01/05/2016 15:50:01 : [INST-ACK ] 02 62 1A.C7.62 0F 13 00 06 LTOFFRR(00) Tue 01/05/2016 15:50:02 : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 1A.C7.62 1E.45.BE 27 13 00 LTOFFRR(00) Tue 01/05/2016 15:50:02 : [Std-Direct Ack] 1A.C7.62-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=1 Tue 01/05/2016 15:50:02 : [D2D EVENT ] Event [1A C7 62 1] [ERR] [0] uom=0 prec=-1 Tue 01/05/2016 15:50:02 : [ 1A C7 62 1] ERR 0 Tue 01/05/2016 15:50:10 : [INST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 1A C7 62 0F 11 FF Tue 01/05/2016 15:50:10 : [INST-ACK ] 02 62 1A.C7.62 0F 11 FF 06 LTONRR (FF) Tue 01/05/2016 15:50:14 : [D2D EVENT ] Event [1A C7 62 1] [ERR] [1] uom=0 prec=-1 Tue 01/05/2016 15:50:14 : [ 1A C7 62 1] ERR 1 Tue 01/05/2016 15:50:19 : [INST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 1A C7 62 0F 11 FF Tue 01/05/2016 15:50:19 : [INST-ACK ] 02 62 1A.C7.62 0F 11 FF 06 LTONRR (FF) Tue 01/05/2016 15:50:20 : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 1A.C7.62 1E.45.BE 27 11 FF LTONRR (FF) Tue 01/05/2016 15:50:20 : [Std-Direct Ack] 1A.C7.62-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=1 Tue 01/05/2016 15:50:20 : [D2D EVENT ] Event [1A C7 62 1] [ERR] [0] uom=0 prec=-1 Tue 01/05/2016 15:50:20 : [ 1A C7 62 1] ERR 0 Tue 01/05/2016 15:50:20 : [D2D EVENT ] Event [1A C7 62 1] [ST] [255] uom=0 prec=-1 Tue 01/05/2016 15:50:20 : [ 1A C7 62 1] ST 255 Tue 01/05/2016 15:50:27 : [INST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 1A C7 62 0F 13 00 Tue 01/05/2016 15:50:27 : [INST-ACK ] 02 62 1A.C7.62 0F 13 00 06 LTOFFRR(00) Tue 01/05/2016 15:50:27 : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 1A.C7.62 1E.45.BE 27 13 00 LTOFFRR(00) Tue 01/05/2016 15:50:27 : [Std-Direct Ack] 1A.C7.62-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=1 Tue 01/05/2016 15:50:27 : [D2D EVENT ] Event [1A C7 62 1] [ST] [0] uom=0 prec=-1 Tue 01/05/2016 15:50:27 : [ 1A C7 62 1] ST 0 Tue 01/05/2016 15:50:34 : [INST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 1A C7 62 0F 11 FF Tue 01/05/2016 15:50:34 : [INST-ACK ] 02 62 1A.C7.62 0F 11 FF 06 LTONRR (FF) Tue 01/05/2016 15:50:35 : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 1A.C7.62 1E.45.BE 27 11 FF LTONRR (FF) Tue 01/05/2016 15:50:35 : [Std-Direct Ack] 1A.C7.62-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=1 Tue 01/05/2016 15:50:35 : [D2D EVENT ] Event [1A C7 62 1] [ST] [255] uom=0 prec=-1 Tue 01/05/2016 15:50:35 : [ 1A C7 62 1] ST 255 Tue 01/05/2016 15:50:41 : [INST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 1A C7 62 0F 13 00 Tue 01/05/2016 15:50:41 : [INST-ACK ] 02 62 1A.C7.62 0F 13 00 06 LTOFFRR(00) Tue 01/05/2016 15:50:43 : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 1A.C7.62 1E.45.BE 27 13 00 LTOFFRR(00) Tue 01/05/2016 15:50:43 : [Std-Direct Ack] 1A.C7.62-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=1 Tue 01/05/2016 15:50:43 : [D2D EVENT ] Event [1A C7 62 1] [ST] [0] uom=0 prec=-1 Tue 01/05/2016 15:50:43 : [ 1A C7 62 1] ST 0 Tue 01/05/2016 15:50:48 : [INST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 1A C7 62 0F 11 FF Tue 01/05/2016 15:50:48 : [INST-ACK ] 02 62 1A.C7.62 0F 11 FF 06 LTONRR (FF) Tue 01/05/2016 15:50:49 : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 1A.C7.62 1E.45.BE 27 11 FF LTONRR (FF) Tue 01/05/2016 15:50:49 : [Std-Direct Ack] 1A.C7.62-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=1 Tue 01/05/2016 15:50:49 : [D2D EVENT ] Event [1A C7 62 1] [ST] [255] uom=0 prec=-1 Tue 01/05/2016 15:50:49 : [ 1A C7 62 1] ST 255 Tue 01/05/2016 15:50:57 : [INST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 1A C7 62 0F 13 00 Tue 01/05/2016 15:50:57 : [INST-ACK ] 02 62 1A.C7.62 0F 13 00 06 LTOFFRR(00) Tue 01/05/2016 15:50:58 : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 1A.C7.62 1E.45.BE 27 13 00 LTOFFRR(00) Tue 01/05/2016 15:50:58 : [Std-Direct Ack] 1A.C7.62-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=1 Tue 01/05/2016 15:50:58 : [D2D EVENT ] Event [1A C7 62 1] [ST] [0] uom=0 prec=-1 Tue 01/05/2016 15:50:58 : [ 1A C7 62 1] ST 0 Tue 01/05/2016 15:51:01 : [INST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 1A C7 62 0F 11 FF Tue 01/05/2016 15:51:01 : [INST-ACK ] 02 62 1A.C7.62 0F 11 FF 06 LTONRR (FF) Tue 01/05/2016 15:51:02 : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 1A.C7.62 1E.45.BE 27 11 FF LTONRR (FF) Tue 01/05/2016 15:51:02 : [Std-Direct Ack] 1A.C7.62-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=1 Tue 01/05/2016 15:51:02 : [D2D EVENT ] Event [1A C7 62 1] [ST] [255] uom=0 prec=-1 Tue 01/05/2016 15:51:02 : [ 1A C7 62 1] ST 255 Tue 01/05/2016 15:51:08 : [INST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 1A C7 62 0F 13 00 Tue 01/05/2016 15:51:08 : [INST-ACK ] 02 62 1A.C7.62 0F 13 00 06 LTOFFRR(00) Tue 01/05/2016 15:51:12 : [D2D EVENT ] Event [1A C7 62 1] [ERR] [1] uom=0 prec=-1 Tue 01/05/2016 15:51:12 : [ 1A C7 62 1] ERR 1 Tue 01/05/2016 15:51:18 : [INST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 1A C7 62 0F 13 00 Tue 01/05/2016 15:51:18 : [INST-ACK ] 02 62 1A.C7.62 0F 13 00 06 LTOFFRR(00) Tue 01/05/2016 15:51:18 : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 1A.C7.62 1E.45.BE 27 13 00 LTOFFRR(00) Tue 01/05/2016 15:51:18 : [Std-Direct Ack] 1A.C7.62-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=1 Tue 01/05/2016 15:51:18 : [D2D EVENT ] Event [1A C7 62 1] [ERR] [0] uom=0 prec=-1 Tue 01/05/2016 15:51:18 : [ 1A C7 62 1] ERR 0 Tue 01/05/2016 15:51:18 : [D2D EVENT ] Event [1A C7 62 1] [ST] [0] uom=0 prec=-1 Tue 01/05/2016 15:51:18 : [ 1A C7 62 1] ST 0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerlands Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Hops=3, Hops Left=1 indicate you have poor communication for whatever reason. Typical reasons are things like CFL/LED bulbs on same circuit.. anything that can create noise on power line. Also, if you have available either a lamplinc or range extender place nearby and see if things improve. Jon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Can you let us know the hardware production date along with the revision number on the white sticker along with the ISY firmware. It should be noted this Load Controller has not been very reliable for many people. This is why when I purchased two NOS units from a e-tailer the first thing I did was wire it to be N.C. Meaning no matter what the device was physically hard wired to have power at all times. Until such time as (I) decided 240 VAC power should be removed. When you have a N.O. unit should the unit ever fail you will have no ability to turn the power back on to the HWT with out removing the unit or rewiring it like I did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icerabbit Posted January 8, 2016 Author Share Posted January 8, 2016 Hey jerlands and Teken - good to see you still around ! - Thank you both for the responses. ----- Yes, it was a communication issue, and caused by human error. Mea culpa. But at the same time good as once I put 1:1 together, it was a no brainer to solve. Long story short: elongated house, couple sub panels, hot water heater is kind of lonely on one end, a nearby lamp link was moved over, some time passed before we noticed we didn't have hot water, figured maybe we used it up with laundry /... next day ok, then not ok, not using hot water every day on that end of the house ... Plugged a dual band link on a lamp circuit close to that panel and the 2447 and have enjoyed reliable hot water on/off past couple settings I probably should see about hardwiring something nearby or doing some kind of bridge between panels. ----- On the sticker it says 2447SA1 Rev. 1.11 and another little sticker 4311 Does that mean fall 2011? And yes, they're not reliable at all. I actually have two of these that are a several years old. The one serving the pool pump in the summer has been replaced twice! They just flat out died. One time was warranty. Second time out of pocket. This one is hanging in there. Knock on wood. Expensive little buggers. Good recommendation about NC. Reason I went NO was one is for the pool pump, don't want that to default to ON. The other is our daytime electricity is like triple the cost. Hence I thought I wanted it to default to being off by default as well, since we're trying to save a bit on the old electric bill. ... Though with the cost of these things and their reliability ... LOL you get the idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 Hey jerlands and Teken - good to see you still around ! - Thank you both for the responses. ----- Yes, it was a communication issue, and caused by human error. Mea culpa. But at the same time good as once I put 1:1 together, it was a no brainer to solve. Long story short: elongated house, couple sub panels, hot water heater is kind of lonely on one end, a nearby lamp link was moved over, some time passed before we noticed we didn't have hot water, figured maybe we used it up with laundry /... next day ok, then not ok, not using hot water every day on that end of the house ... Plugged a dual band link on a lamp circuit close to that panel and the 2447 and have enjoyed reliable hot water on/off past couple settings I probably should see about hardwiring something nearby or doing some kind of bridge between panels. ----- On the sticker it says 2447SA1 Rev. 1.11 and another little sticker 4311 Does that mean fall 2011? And yes, they're not reliable at all. I actually have two of these that are a several years old. The one serving the pool pump in the summer has been replaced twice! They just flat out died. One time was warranty. Second time out of pocket. This one is hanging in there. Knock on wood. Expensive little buggers. Good recommendation about NC. Reason I went NO was one is for the pool pump, don't want that to default to ON. The other is our daytime electricity is like triple the cost. Hence I thought I wanted it to default to being off by default as well, since we're trying to save a bit on the old electric bill. ... Though with the cost of these things and their reliability ... LOL you get the idea. That's really great to hear you solved by basic coupling good for you. Yes 4311 is the 43rd week of 2011 and I can understand why you wanted a N.O. for the pool. Please note the Load Controller is easily converted from one to the other by simply moving the tabs over to the other relay(s). Also you may find adjusting some of the high wattage resistors so they don't touch the capacitors will also extend the life of the unit. As all the units I have inspected had piss poor assembly and having a high heat output device touching something that is suspended in gel film will quickly cause it to dry out and than die. If you're like me with some spare time and solder you can also reflow the solder traces to allow better current flow. Out of course I simply replaced the capacitors in one unit with low ESR caps with higher voltage ratings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icerabbit Posted January 10, 2016 Author Share Posted January 10, 2016 Thanks for the technical / fix recommendation. Is there by chance a pdf or set of pictures on the innards of the little beast? I haven't cracked one of these open yet, but I'm curious Changing out resistors and reflowing is probably out of my league. I'm handy but my knowledge of electrical components is minimal, I do have a decent soldering iron for some more basic / essential repairs, that don't require pinpoint accuracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 Thanks for the technical / fix recommendation. Is there by chance a pdf or set of pictures on the innards of the little beast? I haven't cracked one of these open yet, but I'm curious Changing out resistors and reflowing is probably out of my league. I'm handy but my knowledge of electrical components is minimal, I do have a decent soldering iron for some more basic / essential repairs, that don't require pinpoint accuracy. This image clearly shows you how simple it is to change the position of the relays. You simply move the two purple wires from N.O. to the N.C. contact relay positions. I will call out you may be struggling with pulling the wire out with out the aid of a set of needle nose pliers. Its like some monkey decided it was a good idea to crimp them for good measure once it was seated. And no, it has nothing to do with the detente from the tab which is very common to see on the connectors. As they are intended to ensure the clamp that goes on the male end does not pop off etc. This picture is a little hard to tell but you will get the general idea. At the end of the the photo is a very large 2-5 watt resistor pressed against this green capacitor. No way something that uses a 2-5 watt high output heat device would ever cause a capacitor to prematurely to dry out eh?!? In this image I started to move this (resistor) heat generator away from the capacitors. What isn't in this picture is a heat barrier strip I placed to separate and isolate this area. This is another high output resistor that I adjusted standing up to remove the typical burn through you see on these boards. Again what is not in this photo is a heat barrier strip to keep the heat from impacting the components on either side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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