Svede Posted January 9, 2016 Posted January 9, 2016 I’m new to the ISY994i world but have about 12 yrs experience with X10 devices which I controlled via Active Home Pro. I currently have installed 2 Insteon receptacles and an Insteon bulb that are all working and responding to programs wonderfully. The issue I’m having is with my three X10 WS467 switches. These WS467 control my outdoor lights and have all operated as expected via Active home for years but I cannot get them to work via ISY. I created the following simple program: If X10 'C1/on (3)' is received And From Sunset To Sunrise (next day) Then Send X10 'C1/Status = On ( ' Else Send X10 'C1/off (11)' I have tried to test it with the “Run Then” command with no luck. Possible issues… I am using a different outlet for the PLM than I had used for my Active Home interface and assuming there may be noise on the new outlet I tried connecting to the ‘old’ outlet via an extension cord. This did not work as it seemed to put the program into a loop which in-turn locked up the program and seemingly blew up the PLM. I have since replaced the PLM and restored / successfully tested all programs other than the X10 modules. I’d appreciate any guidance on my program.
Brian H Posted January 9, 2016 Posted January 9, 2016 (edited) What is sending the C1 on command to be received by the program? Sending an X10 C1 Status ON will not turn the modules On. Are your WS467's new enough to have Soft Start? Where they ramp On and Off? Edited January 9, 2016 by Brian H
Svede Posted January 9, 2016 Author Posted January 9, 2016 (edited) I believe one of them are soft start enabled, the other two are older. As for what is sending the Status On.... well, nothing, that seemed to be the only choice from the content menus... programming choices for X10 devices seem different than for Insteon. Edited January 10, 2016 by Svede
stusviews Posted January 10, 2016 Posted January 10, 2016 If C1 is not turned on, then nothing will happen. Try this: If From Sunset To Sunrise (next day) Then Send X10 'C1/On (3)' Else Send X10 'C1/Off (11)'
Svede Posted January 10, 2016 Author Posted January 10, 2016 Thanks, I've changed the programs, I'll update in the morning.
paulbates Posted January 10, 2016 Posted January 10, 2016 Something to keep in mind is the the PLM has a weaker X10 transmitter than something like the TW523. When I switched to the PLM, some x10 switches on the far end of my powerline stopped working. My outside lights were affected, for example, as they were the furthest away from the panel.
Svede Posted January 10, 2016 Author Posted January 10, 2016 Well, good news / bad news... Two of my X10 switches worked with the modified program - thanks Stu! But my X10 switch farthest away did not respond. Is there a proper way to test different outlets... meaning, can I plug the PLM into an extension cord and try different outlets and if yes, what is the least involved - proper shut down / start up procedure? Thanks guys. I was really starting to doubt my ISY purchase, but with a support community like this, I think I can make this work,
Brian H Posted January 10, 2016 Posted January 10, 2016 The CM15A also has a higher output power line signal. Over a PLM. So some areas of you home may have been OK and now can't be reached. Do you have an X10 phase coupler between the two incoming power lines into the home? If the PLM is on the same power circuit as you computer equipment. You may want to try the extension cord power to the PLM to see if things change. As that type of equipment. Frequently can absorb some of the power line signals. Insteon messages are passed from module to module. X10 is not and has to go from the sender all the way to the receiver. Insteon modules have a power line transmitter in them. That will absorb power line signals over what a receiver only type absorbs. Here are some X10 troubleshooting tutorials that are a good source of information. http://jvde.us/x10_troubleshooting.htm
stusviews Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 Is there a proper way to test different outlets... meaning, can I plug the PLM into an extension cord and try different outlets and if yes, what is the least involved - proper shut down / start up procedure? Disconnect/remove power from the ISY and the PLM in any order. Power up the PLM several seconds before applying power to the ISY. You can lengthen the Cat 5 cable between the ISY and router, but keep the cable between the PLM and ISY as short as possible.
larryllix Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 I only use X10 where they are close to the PLM and guaranteed operation is not critical. If I didn't have so darn many X10 modules I wouldn't use then at all. Insteon works so much better at the end of 100' of 14/2.
Svede Posted January 11, 2016 Author Posted January 11, 2016 Thanks for all the info. I may or may not test a better location but then the issue becomes how to place the ISY and PLM... I don't want to have these devices mounted in the middle of a living room / kitchen etc. And thanks to this forum, I have found that Costco now offers Insteon products, one of which is a 4 pack of bulbs for $99 which is a deal - so I'll just use those bulbs to replace the 'unreachable' X10. Speaking of bulbs - are there any other bulbs out there that work well with ISY? I've read in the forum that the Hue bulbs are OK but require their own hub... again, that would be adding hardware where my main goal is to minimize.
stusviews Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 All bulbs work with the ISY, but some may not respond well to SmartHome dimmers. I've had success with dimmable Sylvania and Cree LED bulbs and only moderate success with dimmable Philips LED bulbs. If you need/want a non-dimmable bub, most LED bulbs function well, but do not power a non-dimmable bulb with a dimmer. Even at 100%, the TRIACs clip the waveform reducing the life of the bulb, the dimmer or both.
larryllix Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 (edited) Thanks for all the info. I may or may not test a better location but then the issue becomes how to place the ISY and PLM... I don't want to have these devices mounted in the middle of a living room / kitchen etc. And thanks to this forum, I have found that Costco now offers Insteon products, one of which is a 4 pack of bulbs for $99 which is a deal - so I'll just use those bulbs to replace the 'unreachable' X10. Speaking of bulbs - are there any other bulbs out there that work well with ISY? I've read in the forum that the Hue bulbs are OK but require their own hub... again, that would be adding hardware where my main goal is to minimize. AFAIK all smart bulbs require a hub. OTOH IIRC there was a bulb that came out recently that connects Wi-Fi directly. You can overflow your protocol with more than 32 devices on a Wi-Fi network, so I have been told, where the overhead in the protocol swamps the actual data, so Wi-Fi for HA may not be a good thing. I have four Hues, require a hub and the ISY network module can talk to the hub just fine. No feedback though. Hues have a great interface but colours are lacking. Whites are colour temperature adjustable but low brilliance. RGBW are reported to be somewhat better. I have three MiLight bulbs and five MiLight RGBWW strips and the ISY network module can talk to the two hubs (4 unit addresses per hub) just fine. MiLight bulbs and RGBWW strips have really nice and rich colour, single white, a sloppy protocol interface, very cheap, and do not report status either. When you install smart bulbs how will you turn them on? How will your wife and kids turn them on? Guests? ISY can do it well mixed with Insteon modules/bulbs but you still need a piece of hardware on the wall or MSes etc.. My PLM is on a special short circuit right beside my main panel for powerline signal spread. It is the centre of your house wiring. Edited January 11, 2016 by larryllix
oberkc Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 AFAIK all smart bulbs require a hub. The other day, I think I saw some bulbs that connected directly to a bluetooth device (presumeably, phone or tablet). I was not that interested so I did not take a lot of mental notes. I bring it up only as an example of a bulb that requires no hub. Range, obviously, would be more limited.
larryllix Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 The other day, I think I saw some bulbs that connected directly to a bluetooth device (presumeably, phone or tablet). I was not that interested so I did not take a lot of mental notes. I bring it up only as an example of a bulb that requires no hub. Range, obviously, would be more limited. Yes, true. I have forgotten about those ones coming out. Unfortunately I would require a BT access point from my WiFi to access them, as a bridge/hub to work with HA. . I have an old DLink? BT access point, from years back, but since it never became popular to do things that way, and was never supported with software it became expensive garbage.
Broyd Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 I got one of these devices off of eBay (about 60 bucks). Fixed up all of my weak X-10 signals including those generated by the ISY - PLM and phase coupled my X-10 signals everywhere in the house! It is also Insteon frendly. It does not appear to interfere with Insteon signals. X10 PRO XPCR Signal Coupler Repeater Booster http://www.ebay.com/itm/X10-PRO-XPCR-Signal-Coupler-Repeater-Booster-Factory-Fresh-/161014133300?hash=item257d30b234:g:jRUAAOSwRLZUFFY1 There are MUCH better units out there but they cost 3 times as much.
stusviews Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 the XPCR is a great addition for X10 signals, but it can interfere with Insteon communication.
Brian H Posted January 12, 2016 Posted January 12, 2016 Only X10 Repeater/ Phase Coupler that I know of that respects Insteon. Is the JV Digital Engineering XTB-IIR. XPCR may work but it may still false trigger on the end of Insteon Messages. Thinking they where an X10 message.
Broyd Posted January 14, 2016 Posted January 14, 2016 Thanks stusviews and Brian H for the heads up on the XPCR. I will be alert for any unexpected or unusual X-10 behavior. I am hoping the XPCR will fit my needs as the XTB-IIR is a lot more expensive (but obviously a much better device). I still use X-10 for some control ... I have some modules that have been running reliably for more than 15 years.
stusviews Posted January 14, 2016 Posted January 14, 2016 The XPCR is fine for X10 modules. It's Insteon signals that may be negatively affected.
Broyd Posted January 14, 2016 Posted January 14, 2016 Thanks for clarifying stusviews. I am the guessing that the XPCR would damage an Insteon signal in such a way as to make the communication fail? Or cause communication errors - slowdowns? Can you suggest an example of what might happen thus giving me an idea of what I might watch for? Thanks much!
oberkc Posted January 15, 2016 Posted January 15, 2016 I can corrupt the insteon signal sufficiently that your system fails to respond.
Broyd Posted January 15, 2016 Posted January 15, 2016 Well, so far I have not experienced any Insteon or X-10 communication failures, both on sending or receiving. I did have a difficult time establishing clean communication with an I/OLinc until I realized the PLM and I/OLinc were on opposite legs of the split phase. RF bridging using a pair of the new light dimmer modules on opposite sides of the split and positioned near the I/OLinc did not improve the situation very much. My final solution was to rearrange two circuit breakers in my electrical panel such that they were on the same side of the split and immediately adjacent to one another; the electrical circuit path between the two breakers in my panel is 3/4 of an inch and the Insteon 131.65 KHz power line signal did not have to travel back to the main buss to establish the communication link. This solved that communication problem perfectly.
stusviews Posted January 15, 2016 Posted January 15, 2016 If you wired dual-band devices so that they were, in fact, on opposite legs and still had difficulty, then you experienced the first of Insteon communication problems caused by the XPCR. Swapping circuits when they're on opposite legs of the split, single-phase electric supply is not in compliance with the electric code, may overload a neutral wire and, possibly, cause a fire because the neutral wire is not protected (i.e., not connected to a circuit breaker).
Broyd Posted January 16, 2016 Posted January 16, 2016 Hi stusviews,Thanks for the info on the possible XPCR interaction with Insteon signals. But I am surprised that by moving the 994 and the I/OLinc to the same side of the split that all of the communication problems have cleared up. I would still expect to see something. However, I am now alerted to any other peculiarities I might see. So far, so good!On the breaker interchange ...The two breakers I have interchanged are half-height and the circuits they control are completely separate from one another. The branch circuits they each control have no common connections - period. The neutral wire from each of these circuits connects to the common neutral buss in the breaker panel along with the 25 or so other neutral wires from the remaining branch circuits served by the breaker panel. When the house was originally wired, those two branch circuits could have just as easily been installed next to one another on the same buss feed as I have now configured them . Both circuits are lightly loaded and so interchanging them makes no or very little difference to the load balancing on the two legs of the split phase.I am trying to make sense of your comments regarding the current carried in the neutral wire; the two circuits I have interchanged are completely separate so interchanging them does not affect the current in the neutral wire of either circuit in any way.In order to be taking about a current in the neutral line that can interact in some way, it seem to me that you are telling me about a situation where the neutral line is shared between the two legs of the split phase such as you find when a 14-3 cable is connected to the panel by a double pole breaker that then feeds the outlets on a kitchen counter. In this situation the upper and lower hot contacts of a duplex receptacle are fed by the the two splits of the single phase feeding the house. Measuring the voltage between these two hot contacts gives you 240 volts. This setup allows you to plug in two heavy duty appliances ( a microwave oven and an electric toaster ) into the same duplex receptacle without blowing the breaker. But in this instance, it is ONLY the difference in the current loads between the two appliances that is carried by the neutral wire. If two 15 amp appliances are plugged in, the neutral carries NO current. If a 10 and a 5 amp appliance are plugged in, one leg carries 10 amps, the other leg carries 5 amps and the neutral carries the difference, 5 amps.I can't visualize a 'ordinary' situation where a neutral wire would be forced to carry any more current than the controlling breaker could supply. You could certainly setup a situation like that; feed a single 10 gauge wire through a 30 amp breaker and return the current though a 14 gauge wire in a completely different cable but that is not what I would call 'ordinary'.
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