ALL ON / ALL OFF Incidents

[justin.cool]

Teken,

 

You know what they say, “Third time is a charm!”

 

Now I think I understand….

 

1.      I need to leave the device alone (ie NO Device Restore) after the hard reset in anticipation of the next ALL ON/OFF event.

2.     It must be a stand alone device, no programs / timers / ISY control.  Thus, I have deleted the ISY-994 program timer that turned the powder room fan OFF after 15 minutes. 

3.     This Powder Room Fan is now 100% stand-alone, and I believe has been hard reset. 

 

NOTE:  This fan is OFF 99.9% of the time, thus it is a good test for the ALL ON condition. 

 

Given that, if an ALL OFF condition occurs, which seems to occur about 50% of the time, this device will not be a good test.  Thus, I have identified a 2876DB Icon device that controls a small picture lamp that stays on 24/7.  It does not belong to any scenes, and is NOT controlled by any program or timer from the ISY.  Thus, it is stand-alone as well.  However, it is ON all the time and will be a good test for the ALL OFF condition.  

 

I have followed the procedures you outlined, verified that it can be controlled, post-hard reset, via the ISY-994.  And did NOT do a Restore Device.  I did however, verify via Show Device Links that there are NO non-zero records / lines.  See below steps followed for both devices:

 

·      Hard reset the powder room fan / picture lamp  device – made sure I followed Version 1 reset sequence, see NOTE below.    

·      Verified the switch turns the device ON/OFF manually. 

·      Bring up ISY-994 Admin console.

·      Fan / lamp is OFF, Query checks out.

·      Turn fan / lamp ON via admin console, fan / lamp turns ON

·      Turn fan / lamp OFF via admin console, fan / lamp turns OFF

·      Turn fan / lamp ON via admin console, fan  / lamp turns ON

·      Show Device Links Table:  One (1) line / record of all zeros is displayed.

 

 

Bottom Line:  Both devices are poised for the next ALL ON/OFF incident per your instructions. 

 

NOTE:  I found two sets of 2876DB Factory reset instructions (I followed Version 1).  I also assumed that because my 2876SB has a functioning air gap tab, it is a later model of 2876SB, and therefore it follows the same procedure for a factory reset. 

 

Version 1:

 

To factory reset your Dimmer

1. Pull the SET Button all the way out and wait 10 seconds.

2. Push the SET Button all the way in and hold for 3 seconds - then release.

3. After 3 seconds, the light will turn on fully.

 

 

Version 2, longer, more complex, more ambiguous

 

Gently pull the Set button at the bottom of the paddle out as far as it will go (about 1/8 inch). This "Air Gap" removes all power to the ICON switch.

The LED and controlled light will turn off




Wait 10 seconds

 

Push the Set button in as far as it will go The ICON switch will beep and its Status LED will flash once 
The controlled light will turn on




Immediately press & hold the Set button for about 3 seconds, then release A few seconds after you release the Set button, the ICON switch will double-beep and its LED will flash once

 

Factory reset is now complete. The ICON switch is now reset to all the factory default settings and is ready for fresh programming and use.

 

Look forward to your feedback,

 

 

Justin in Dallas

[widnerm]

I'm adding my own recent experience here.

 

My old PLM died in December and I replaced it with a new one from Amazon around December 22, 2015.  Since then I've had two ALL OFF events.  They both happened when I touched a 2477D switch to turn off a light in one room (the mudroom).  Upon hitting the switch every Insteon device in the house shut off.

 

My Insteon network consists of 77 switches, 3 keypads, and one four scene mini remote (2342-232).  For more than two years (mid-2012 to December 2015) I never experienced an ALL ON or ALL OFF event.  Since replacing the PLM two months ago I've had the two ALL OFF events.

 

I tried to replicate the event by manually turning the mudroom lights on and off about a hundred times, but unsurprisingly I can't make the error repeat.

 

Both times the ALL OFF happened there should have been no other Insteon activity on the network.

 

I have no Insteon motion sensors or any other RF-only devices besides the mini remote.  I have an ELK M1 Gold connected to the system via Ethernet, which has also been in place for more than 2 years with no problems.

 

My current thought is to replace the capacitors in the old PLM that went bad and then put that one back in service.

 

My ISY994 firmware is v.4.2.28.  I did not update the firmware when I replaced the PLM.  I tend not to upgrade firmware that's working fine.  If it ain't broke I don't try to fix it.

[justin.cool]

widnerm,

 

Thanks for your input.  No doubt these ALL ON/OFF incidents are frustrating, and elusive.  I have not experienced any more of them since I took all the steps as outlined by Teken above on 13 Jan 2016.  

 

But I have also completely disabled the one "somewhat common" link between them.  That is the IOLinc on the garage door that turned ON/OFF the garage light.  Several times the event "seemed" to be triggered by the garage door being opened.  Not every time, but some times.......  So now, that IOLinc, while still in the system, it is NOT linked to any scenes, NOR is it used by any programs.  

 

I really wonder if anyone will ever get to the bottom of this issue.......

 

Justin

[stusviews]

So now, that IOLinc, while still in the system, it is NOT linked to any scenes, NOR is it used by any programs.  

 

How do you operate the garage door, other than the original GDO remote?

[justin.cool]

stusviews,

 

The garage door IOLinc is just a monitor to tell when the garage door is opened / closed.  It is the standard kit from Smarthome.  The control of the door is by the built-in programmable remote in our cars.  The IOLinc was originally set up to turn on the garage light when the door opened and then an ISY program would turn it off 10 minutes later.  All of that has been disabled.....the IOLinc now just reports to the ISY when the contact is opened or closed and that is it...

[Frank_YYZ]

Hi all,

 

I also had a bout of random ALL OFF and ALL ON events.  I have about 140 devices and an ALL ON/OFF event can be pretty annoying.  It can turn on 6 kW of deicing cables and would also open/close my garage doors.  Not the kind of thing you want happening while on vacation.

 

 

Wireless devices:  I have 5 water level sensors, one wireless MD, one contact sensor, and a bunch of remotes.  I also have a few no-neutral (RF only) dimmer wall switches.  None of the events I witnessed correlated with wireless events, but then it's tough to know when wireless messages are sent.  (I also have a bunch of wired-in motion detectors sending messages at unknown times so I can have a lot of messages flying back and forth.)

 

Communications:  My Insteon communications is marginal at the best of times.  I have several electrical sub-panels, some old knob and tube wiring, and LOTS of UPS systems, CFLs and LED lights.  These all cause a fair bit of signal attenuation and noise.  I have 14 access points, uncounted line filters and have been putting in dual band devices whenever a module dies.  This environment virtually guarantees that most messages get re-transmitted up to the max count, further increasing my traffic.  (OK, I also have many large device groups and lots of keypads that allow me to control lights from all over the house, so I'm making a bad situation worse.) 

 

Note: I have a whole house Leviton 1110 surge suppressor wired directly into my main panel.  This has greatly decreased the rate at which my Insteon modules die.  Everyone should consider installing one if you haven't already done so.

 

In my case, swapping out my newest PLM for an OLDER one has cured the problem completely.  I didn't change anything else at the time.

 

Here is my experience with various PLMs over the years.

 

PLM #1 An older 2412S. (Rev 3.1, date code 0842).  

This one worked OK for years except that I couldn't add many devices using my isy.  It couldn't determine the device type.  I could add the devices by telling the isy the Insteon device model number, but then the isy couldn't tell the FW rev of each module.

 

PLM#2. 2413S  (V1.0, date code 0944)

I had bought this as a spare since, given the notoriously bad reliability of PLMs, I didn't want to be stuck without one when my active one died.  I had never installed it.

 

PLM#3 2413S (V1.B, date code 1317)

I bought this one when Michael Kohamin mentioned to me that older PLMs had problems implementing the auto-discover protocol when adding devices.  So I thought that, given the effort in swapping out a PLM, I would get the latest version available.

 

In June 2013 I upgraded directly from my old 2412s PLM to the then current version (#3).  That's when my random ON/OFF events began. Sometimes I had 2 in a day.  Sometimes I managed to go a week or two without one.  (I disconnected the garage door controls from my IOlinks since I got tired of having my doors open and close.  I also unplugged all my heating cables.)   I tried pulling the battery on my MD but the random on/offs continued.  So I put the battery back in.

 

In October 2013, I had had enough and, out of desperation substituted my spare 2413S (#2, V1.0) for my newer #3 unit.

 

The ALL ON/OFF events stopped and I haven't had one in almost 2 1/2 years.  (By the way, this older 2413S (V1.0) allows the isy to determine device types during device adds.)

 

So I am forced to the conclusion that some of the PLMs out there (in particular V1.B seem to be far more susceptible to ALL ON and ALL OFF events than others.  And the newer ones are worse than the older ones.  (Up to 2013 anyway.)

 

I'm a bit worried about what will happen when my working PLM kicks the bucket (which I'm sure it eventually will).  No way I'm putting V1.B back in.  And I'm not confident that a current revision would be any better than V1.B.

 

The only issue I have with my current system is that, if I get a short power glitch, sometimes my isy cannot read any incoming messages from the PLM after the failure.  The isy can still send signals OK.  I don't know whether this is the PLM or the isy not rebooting properly after a very short power fail.  It doesn't happen often but, when it does it's usually while I'm on vacation.  I then have to have one of my tech savvy friends enter the house and restart both the PLM and the isy.

 

I can't claim that my situation is typical of other users out there but I thought I'd throw my experiences into the mix, for what it's worth.

 

Frank

 

 

 

 

[Techman]

Frank

 

The current PLM is firmware 9E (there might even be a later release) Your #3 PLM is almost  3 years old and is known to be problematic with an average failure rate of about 2 years.

 

The motion sensors have been known to trigger all on events as they send out multiple signals which can cause a data collision. In your case it sounds like you have a lot of motion sensor traffic.

 

The newer dual band modules do not recognize the all on signal.

 

Do you have the ISY plugged into a UPS, which is a good idea, however the PLM should be plugged directly into an outlet. 

[cgd]

Frank, Thank you.

You have stated the biggest problem we face with Insteon products: "And I'm not confident that a current revision would be any better than V1.B."

We cannot depend on any version of an Insteon device to be better than previous ones. We are lucky if they are even truly compatible.

My advice to everyone never use Insteon for anything critical except for additional monitoring, and never, never for control.

Every new device you get must be tested before depending on it, especially for example, leak detectors. 

Even if a new one is the save version, rev. etc. as one you have working fine, test it!

I have found leak detectors with different firmware (that did not work) but had the save rev. number as ones that did work.

I look forward to a future ISY that will handle systems as big as mine. I have done my own software which works great.

But, I fear the time in the future when I can no longer maintain it due to Insteon changes and my advancing age.

I'll be 74 later this year and my mind is not what it used to be.

[Frank_YYZ]

As suggested by Techman, I will plug my isy into a UPS and see if that cures the problem where the isy can't receive messages from the PLM.  If it recurs, it shows pretty conclusively that the PLM occasionally screws up after a power glitch.  However it will take a few months before I'm reasonably certain that the problem has gone away since I don't get that many power failures and it doesn't fail after every glitch.

 

Have the PLMs gotten a hardware upgrade in the last couple of years?  Techman mentions that my latest PLM (V1.B, date: 1317, the one that gave me my ALL OFF/ON nightmare) has known problems and is prone to fail after a couple of years.  (Yup .. not surprised by this at all.)  But, if it's exactly the same H/W as 3 years ago, the current units will be just as likely to crap out after a couple of years.

 

It would be nice if the Insteon labels corresponded with the FW revision inside the device.  For example, my current working PLM (#2) shows V1.0 on the label but the isy reports V92.  I guess the paper label is the H/W rev and the isy reports FW.

 

Does anyone know what the paper module label shows for a current model PLM? (eg FW: V3E.)  That might answer my H/W question above.

 

Frank

[stusviews]

The paper label does not show the firmware. Use Tools, Diagnostics, PLM Info/Status.

[Techman]

As suggested by Techman, I will plug my isy into a UPS and see if that cures the problem where the isy can't receive messages from the PLM.  If it recurs, it shows pretty conclusively that the PLM occasionally screws up after a power glitch.  However it will take a few months before I'm reasonably certain that the problem has gone away since I don't get that many power failures and it doesn't fail after every glitch.

 

 

It would be nice if the Insteon labels corresponded with the FW revision inside the device.  For example, my current working PLM (#2) shows V1.0 on the label but the isy reports V92.  I guess the paper label is the H/W rev and the isy reports FW.

 

Does anyone know what the paper module label shows for a current model PLM? (eg FW: V3E.)  That might answer my H/W question above.

 

Frank

The version on the label is the hardware version of the PLM, the ISY shows the firmware version of the PLM,

 

The 4 digit code on the label is the build date, the 17th week of 2013

 

The PLM I bought about 18 months ago was hardware version 2.0 and firmware version 9E

[Frank_YYZ]

I just had a conversation with justin and he is also running a PLM with HW rev V1.B and FW rev V9B.  Exactly the same FW rev as the PLM that gave me all those ALL ON/OFF events.  In my case, substituting in an older PLM with FW V92 completely solved the problem.

 

This may be coincidence.  But it's sure looking like anyone who is getting all on/off events and is running V9B might want to change to a different PLM.  So the question is:  Are we sure that current FW PLMs (eg V9E) are better than V9B with regards to susceptibility to all on/off events ?  Does anyone here have contacts with Smarthome?  Maybe they can shed light on any code changes that may have made V9B a stinker?

 

I'm guessing that it's only installations that have a lot of devices and relatively poor communications with lots of retransmissions are suffering from this problem.

 

Frank

[justin.cool]

Frank et al,

 

I just got off the customer support line with SmartHome.  They are sending me a replacement PLM....no charge.  I look forward to getting this one in place and getting these issues behind me!  Apparently V9B firmware is a known issue.......

 

Justin

[Michel Kohanim]

Frank,

 

I do not think the PLM is going to help. The first thing I recommend is:

Go to the log and check whether or not your motion sensors have gone crazy. Some motion sensors with low battery, start sending on/off sequences every 1 second and in most cases, that craziness precedes the All on.

 

More information:

http://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=INSTEON_Random_All_On_Events

 

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[jerlands]

Frank et al,

 

I just got off the customer support line with SmartHome.  They are sending me a replacement PLM....no charge.  I look forward to getting this one in place and getting these issues behind me!  Apparently V9B firmware is a known issue.......

 

Justin

 

Be sure to follow instructions for PLM replacement and not issue "Delete Modem"... You'll save yourself headache

 

 

Jon...

[Frank_YYZ]

hi Michael,

 

In my case, putting in an older the PLM definitely cured the problem.  My version V9B PLM gave me random ON/OFF events during the entire five month period that I had it installed back in 2013.  I didn't have them before and a haven't had an ALL ON/ON event since I ripped the thing out 2 1/2 years ago.

 

I agree that the wireless MDs can become quite evil as the battery is dying, but this wouldn't happen continuously over a 5 month period.  (BTW, did they ever fix the Low Battery threshold so users actually get a low battery warning before the thing dies?)

 

Justin pressed Smarthome on the PLM and they admitted that V9B PLM's have a known "issue".  (It would be nice if they were a bit more up front about this.  I wonder what other PLM FW revs have the same issue.)

 

You might want to wait to see if changing the PLM also cures Justin's ALL ON/OFF problems.  If it does, you definitely want to update the ISY Wiki to note that some PLM versions are prone to ALL OFF/ON events.  (As I mentioned earlier, it might only happen in busy systems with bad datacom.)

 

I feel bad that I didn't communicate my solution a year or two ago.  But it took a few months before I was convinced that this had actually solved my problem and I then pretty much forgot about it until I came across this thread.

 

Frank

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Frank,

 

Thanks so very much. Can you please let me know what PLM version worked for you?

 

And, just to make sure, you are saying PLM 9B was the root cause of your All On/Off issues?

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[Frank_YYZ]

Hi Michael,

 

Yup ... V9B was definitely the cause of my all on-off events.  I substituted an older PLM (V92) that I had in stock as a spare and it's been working fine for over two years.  No way I was going to buy another PLM or exchange my V9B for another current V9B unit since changing out a PLM is a long and painful process.  (Remember that all this happened in 2013.)  I have no idea if the current PLM rev still has issues with all off/on, but I'm guessing that Smarthome realized they had a problem and have addressed it.  Currently I'm stuck with a spare (V9B) that I certainly wouldn't want to reinstall.  Since Smarthome has acknowledged the issue, I will try to get a free replacement from Aartech (my Canadian Smarthome reseller) next time I place an order with them.

 

By the way, current PLM's have a HW rev of 2.0.  Since you deal with 1000's of people who have these things, do you have any sort of feeling on whether they've finally addressed the power supply issues?  (If you look at the reviews on the Smarthome site, it's obvious that LOTS of people have to replace their PLMs every two years or so since they simply die due to the supply burning out.)

 

I appreciate all the work UDI does in maintaining the forum and providing support to users.

 

 

 

Frank

[Brian H]

The PLM firmware is now 9E or maybe even higher now.

My hardware 2.1 2413S came with 9E firmware.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Frank,

 

Thanks so very much for the update. I don't remember whether or not 92 was also dual band. Does anyone remember?

 

Based on what I know, hardware versions 2C and above have the higher voltage caps.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[LeeG]

Michel

 

I have a v92 PLM on a 99i running 3.3.10.   The label on the PLM indicates a Dual Band PLM.

[Frank_YYZ]

Yes.  The older 2413S PLM that is still working well for me is a Dual Band Unit:  HW: V1.0, Date code: 0944, FW: V92.  

 

For those of you wondering how a seven year old 2413S is still working, remember that it sat in the box as a spare for the first 4 years.   I just came across the thread on changing capacitors on failed 2413S devices.  It also works for 2443 access points and I've just had three of them die recently.  So it's time to lay in a whack of spares and brush up on my soldering skills.  

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Frank,

 

Thanks so very much!

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[justin.cool]

Update:  I received the new 2413S PLM, F/W version 9E, and successfully installed it.  However, during the PLM Restore I got about 20+ devices listed as ERR in the event viewer.  I believe this generated a dialog box for each ERR, but I had no way to correlate the dialog boxes during the restore with the list of 20+ from the Event Viewer. 

 

I have gone back to several of the ERR devices and done a Show Device Links and sure enough there were several record mismatches.  On at least one I noticed it was the address of the OLD PLM that was in the mismatched record. 

 

I did a Restore Device on each device (4 so far) that I found mismatched records.   I then executed a Show Device Links and Compare and the match in all 4 cases was 100%.  When I have time I will have to go back and do the others. 

 

But honestly, I am at the end of my rope.  Between ALL ON/OFF incidents, nagging communication issues resulting in very poor reliability, and poor reliability of Insteon h/w, I am ready to throw in the towel and get a real home automation system. 

 

Bottom Line:  Insteon is NOT READY for PRIME TIME and will likely forever remain a system for the hobbyist. 

 

Justin in Dallas

[cgd]

Justin,

 

I am sorry you have had so much trouble with Insteon. Every year of the past ten I have looked for something else. I have over 300 devices. So, you can imagine the problems I have had. The ISY is the only thing that makes it work if a person has more than a few devices. But, it is of no help if you have too many devices. I had to give up my ISY because of the huge number of devices and links. (I now use 4 PLMs and my own software.) I have found that the real source of many if not most problems is poor quality control in both hardware and firmware. Unfortunately, this seems to be the case with Z-wave, Zigbee, etc. too.  No technology standard, regardless of its design, is worth much if manufacturers can't produce reliable hardware and firmware. I can only guess why Smarthome has not improved in this area. Good quality control and testing is expensive. It might significantly increase the cost of Insteon devices. For me, double the cost would be worth it. But, low price and lots of marketing hype can sell a lot of product when the market is large. However, iPhones and iPads show what can happen if ... I own a small company that produces a quality product with extreme reliability. Because of this we successfully compete with some of the largest corporations in the country. But, testing a new version of our software may cost as much as the development of it. 

So, I have to agree with you. Except for a few simple applications Insteon is likely to remain a plaything. A $49 device that does not work but has good marketing will sell. Where as, a $150 device that works and with less marketing will hardly sell at all. Even good marketing cannot over come the price difference. 

That's my two cents worth.  I would be very interested if you find something actually better.