Had my first ALL ON event last night

[chrishick]

Well, after reading about others that have had this problem and thinking "I'm glad my system is rock solid" it finally happened to me.

 

We were upstairs getting ready for bed and the wife said "I thought I turned off the lights down stairs before we came up". Every light in the house is now on, spa is running, and the garage door is open. I'm not sure exactly when it happened, but reviewing the log nothing shows up and when she went down to turn off some lights the off command when she pressed the dimmer switches doesn't even show in the log. I went down a few minutes later and I "think" some of my key presses do show in the log, but I'm not sure.

 

I'm not sure where to even start. Reviewing some of the other threads, it seems there is not much you can do, except hope it doesn't happen again. I will be working my way through the 39 page "Random All On Event" thread to see if there is any more information that might help, but I'm not holding my breath. The WAF has taken a HUUUGE hit.

 

I can't trust my system anymore. How disappointing......

[db2ace2]

Well, after reading about others that have had this problem and thinking "I'm glad my system is rock solid" it finally happened to me.

 

We were upstairs getting ready for bed and the wife said "I thought I turned off the lights down stairs before we came up". Every light in the house is now on, spa is running, and the garage door is open. I'm not sure exactly when it happened, but reviewing the log nothing shows up and when she went down to turn off some lights the off command when she pressed the dimmer switches doesn't even show in the log. I went down a few minutes later and I "think" some of my key presses do show in the log, but I'm not sure.

 

I'm not sure where to even start. Reviewing some of the other threads, it seems there is not much you can do, except hope it doesn't happen again. I will be working my way through the 39 page "Random All On Event" thread to see if there is any more information that might help, but I'm not holding my breath. The WAF has taken a HUUUGE hit.

 

I can't trust my system anymore. How disappointing......

I do not work for UDI pr Smarthome or Insteon and am just a Novice end user of the ISY but I did battle the ALL ON events for a long time. I have not had one in a very long time now. I had tried to duplicate the behaviour and at one time could force several of these events in a single day. One thing I do think is interesting is that they tend to happen a lot at night when people are about to go to Bed. For the life of me I cannot see anything that caused this at bedtime but it is just something I have noticed from several posts and a lot of mine were at Bedtime or sometimes an hour after when nothing else was happening in the house except a Mouse perhaps?.  I however have had them happen at all hours of the day. I am just curious if something like Programs to dim LED's before bedtime or anything like that could have been happening?   I have also seen Partial On Events where lights in a few rooms come on but not all. It is also interesting that Garage Door Sensors and Relays  seem to be involved quite often? Its not just the Sensor getting triggered but the Relay too.  Do you have anything coded that would trigger a Garage Door Alert from the Sensor  around the time of the AO? Also do you have any programs that trigger the Garage Door Relay to open the door or do you only use the sensor in programs?

 

In my case I did switch to a different PLM but I also had to recode a lot of my programs. Basically you do not want two different programs controlling the same device for different triggers. Same is true of devices in scenes. In other words if you have a device that has Program A that turns it on when motion is sensed and another program B that turns the device On when a Photo Beam is triggered and a Program C that turns the device On when the Garage Door Opens and Program D that turns it on from a keypad, then it is entirely possible that one or more of these triggering events will happen simultaneously and will cause all of those programs to try and turn the device on or off at the same time or in the case of Motion could turn it on repeatedly. In my case and after I did a lot of research on this that type of thing was the closest I ever came to reproducing the AO at will. At one time I could reproduce it several times a day by experimenting with programs that did this sort of repeated ON thing.

 

Now days I do not let more than one program trigger a device. It may trigger it ON or OFF because of multiple triggering device inputs but will only turn it on or off once regardless of how many triggering events it receives and will not turn it on again if it is already on or until a second or two pause has occurred. This in my opinion seems to have done the most to eliminate the AO events from happening for me.

 

Face it, when you have so many triggering devices (Switches, Photo Beams, Motion Sensors, Hidden Door Sensors, Open Close Sensors, Leak Sensors, REST Interface) and each of these can have program logic to turn the device On or Off, then it just increases the possibility of the same signal going to the same device repetatively. This in my opinion is somehow a major influence in the AO events which is why Motion Sensors or other wireless triggering devices that can send multiple repeated signals are often involved in AO event triggering. I also do not allow a Sensor to trigger a device directly, Only allow it via program and only if it is not already On or Off or it has been a second or teo since I last changed the device state.

 

I will let the experts respond but from my experience this has gone a long way in eliminating my AO events. Now that I say this I will probably have one tonight but up until now only allowing a Motion Sensor or other sensor or even REST Network input to trigger an event only once every few seconds instead of repeatedly is a huge culprit in preventing this from my experience. You would think this could be solved by ignoring a second On or Off to the same device within a second of each other to any device. Not sure if that can be done but I suspect it would eliminate the AO condition.  It is also interesting that the AO events are not logged. They happen but you do not see the events in the Logs.

 

Hope this helps?

[MWareman]

ALL-ONs happen external to ISY. That's why they are not reflected in the log. They are a collision of a completely wireless device doing its usual send three times colliding with the ISY issuing a scene instruction that was triggered by the first send (directly or indirectly). Wired devices don't send three times.

 

I assume you have either motion sensors, wireless door sensors or wireless window sensors? They are usually a trigger when they drive a program, or when they are directly linked to a device that itself drives a program. The best solution is adding a 3 or 4 second delay at the top of such programs. That way, the program allows the wireless device to complete its sends before acting in it and generating new Insteon traffic. Thus avoids the collision, solving the issue for many (it did mine).

 

Also, I've long campaigned to NOT use IOLinc devices to control a garage door. Its neither safe or secure. I've wired my control to an output on my Elk, which is designed to be safe (no unexpected operations). I do the same with water valves and heating elements to keep my pipes from freezing. I just don't trust Insteon as a protocol for these things.

[KeviNH]

 The best solution is adding a 3 or 4 second delay at the top of such programs. That way, the program allows the wireless device to complete its sends before acting in it and generating new Insteon traffic. Thus avoids the collision, solving the issue for many (it did mine).

Makes sense to me.

 

I'm slowly transitioning my wireless motion sensors over to Z-Wave, but have a few triggerlincs for contact closure, guess I'll need to find an Everspring SM103?

[stusviews]

All of my All On events were visible in the log. Although I couldn't pinpoint the source, the devices being on at 100% was clearly recorded. Also, I added a 2 second delay to programs that involved MSs. Over time, I've not had a full All On, so I deleted the delays, also over time.

 

I haven't had a repetition of the All On for several months.

[Toddimus]

I didn't have any All On events for about 14 months ... from the time I did my initial install in our new house until about a month ago.  I just had another one last night. 

Both times, I was opening a door that has a hidden door sensor in it.  There also happens to be a wireless motion sensor on the far side of the door that I was opening.  Not sure if the motion sensor would have had enough time to "see" me before the All On actually happened. 

 

I think the first time, the hidden door sensor had a low battery.  Maybe it tried to send out its low battery signal on top of the regular door open signal it was trying to send?

 

The first time, I wasn't able to get to the log to check.  Last night, I looked in the ISY log and didn't see anything that looked suspicious.

[stusviews]

Do you mean that nothing in the log showed as being fully on or nothing seemed to trigger the event? Or both?

[Toddimus]

Both, I think. I honestly didn't look that hard at it. I was getting our toddler to bed and got distracted. Nothing stood out to me though. Definitely weren't a bunch of individual device or scenes turned full on in the log.

Sorry I'm not more help. Il try to document it better next time.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[stusviews]

Any post about anything abnormal is helpful

[chrishick]

I do have 5 door sensors and 7 motion sensors, but I don't think any of them changed state when this happened. I also have programs that keep my keypad lights in synch with the state of the fanlinc that they control. I guess I should add a delay so that these programs are not firing at the same instant a keypad button is pressed.

 

Fan low - [iD 0065][Parent 0063]

 

If

        Status (Old) 'FanLinc / FL Motor (MB)' is Low

 

Then

        Set Scene 'KPL-LIGHTS / BR-KPL-LIGHTS / BR-KPL-LIGHTS-LOW' On

 

Else

        Set Scene 'KPL-LIGHTS / BR-KPL-LIGHTS / BR-KPL-LIGHTS-LOW' Off

 

 

 

Not being sure exactly when it happened (we were upstairs with the door closed for about 5 minutes) the only strange thing I see is when my wife turned on the bedroom fan using the KPL two things happened.

 

1) I'm pretty sure, but not positive, she pressed high and the fan sure seemed like it went high, but the log shows she pressed medium. This might just be my short memory playing tricks on me.

2) At the same time she pressed the KPL button the LR fan shows that it turned on high and the KPL that controls that fan shows three buttons (High/Med/Low) all turned on at the same time. Then my sync program turns off all the KPL lights and then appears to try to set the correct lights to match the fanlinc state.

 

 

[db2ace2]

That is an interesting scenario. I have seen ALL ON events that I thought were from keypads, and others that I am sure were from Motion or Photo Bean sensors or other wireless sensors. In the case of the Keypad controlling the Fanlinc I have seen similar events before so this kind of backs that up although I was never able to force it to happen. I do know that it has happened when I pressed a KPL.   I have since coded all of my programs that handle KPL and FANLINC's so that no two triggers can be active at the same time. In other words I have multiple programs one for KPLH one for KPLM one for KPLL and one for KPLO.  In each of these in the THEN logic the first thing I do is set a int Var to say the program is actively running then and in the other programs I set the IF logic to not run when that VAR is > 0, In other words in KPLH program I set var=3 and in KPLM I set it to 2 and in KPLL I set it to 1.  and in KPLO I set it to -1. Then at the end of the THEN logic I set the var back to 0. In the If logic for KPLH I add "And var = 0 or var = 3", For KPLM I add "and var = 0 or var = 2" etc.. That way if a KPL was to trigger High Med and Low (Possibly from a fat finger on the KPL) then only one of the programs would be able to execute and thus you would not have multiple programs trying to control the fanlinc at the same time regardless of using the fanlinc in a scene or not but especially of the scene also sets the KPL and the fanlinc.  Again I am no expert but these are just some of the things I have had to code around to prevent ALL ON events. Its pretty much anything that can send multiple repeated commands to a device. I am not sure how that gets translated internally to an ALL ON but I am convinced it somehow does.

 

Hope this helps!

 

Charles

[stusviews]

I've never experienced a KPL secondary button change state due to an ALL ON.

[chrishick]

I've never experienced a KPL secondary button change state due to an ALL ON.

And from what I understand, if it was caused by an ALL ON it shouldn't be showing in the log.

 

I know for a fact that nobody pressed those buttons.

 

Weird.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[EricK]

I've never experienced a KPL secondary button change state due to an ALL ON.

Stu,

Secondary buttons have turned on for me. I can't recall the exact issue right now, but I had trouble turning a button off. It may have been set to non toggle on, then turns off by a program after being pressed. Whatever the issue was I now have a button that is a recovery button. If I have to press it, which I have not needed to since I ditched my motion sensors, all timer programs run and all kpls that should be off turn off. I can use my away button to turn everything off, or just run around the house to do so.

[saphotoexpress]

Ok, had this happen to me at 5:55am this morning and I have 2 separate programs that turn on a 2 devices at 5:55am so it seems related.  This has never happened to me before today.  Almost all of the lights turned on and both garage doors opened, sprinklers stayed off.  I haven't made any changes to any programs in a few weeks so I'm pretty sure that it's nothing that I caused.  MWareman's collision explanation above makes sense to me but I don't have any wireless devices.  I'll change my programs so they don't happen at the same time, but this is very concerning.  I should also mention that I haven't created a program or scene that might turn on all of these devices, in other words, I haven't created my own "All Lights On" program/scene.  I can provide more log info but here is the 5:55am info.  Odd thing is that I don't see where it actually opened both garage doors and many of the lights that came on were also not listed in the log. The rest of the log just shows me turning stuff on and off devices a couple of minutes later.

 

Log

Thermostats / Living Rm Thermo - Main Heat Setpoint 70° Wed 2016/03/02 05:45:02 AM System Log

Lighting Controllers / Laundry Room / Laundry Window On Wed 2016/03/02 05:45:02 AM Program Log

Lighting Controllers / Kitchen Lights / Kitchen Window On Wed 2016/03/02 05:45:03 AM Program Log

Lighting Controllers / Laundry Room / Laundry Window Status 100% Wed 2016/03/02 05:45:03 AM System Log

Lighting Controllers / Kitchen Lights / Kitchen Window Status 100% Wed 2016/03/02 05:45:03 AM System Log

Lighting Controllers / Johns Room / Aquarium Light On Wed 2016/03/02 05:55:00 AM Program Log

Scene:Garage FP Test On Wed 2016/03/02 05:55:00 AM Program Log

Lighting Controllers / Johns Room / Aquarium Light Status 100% Wed 2016/03/02 05:55:00 AM System Log

Keypad Devices / Table Top Buttons / TableTop C Status 100% Wed 2016/03/02 05:55:01 AM System Log

Keypad Devices / Table Top Buttons / TableTop D Status 100% Wed 2016/03/02 05:55:02 AM System Log

Gate Garage Door Controllers / Garage R-Sensor Status 100% Wed 2016/03/02 05:55:02 AM System Log

Gate Garage Door Controllers / Garage L-Sensor Status 0% Wed 2016/03/02 05:56:54 AM System Log

Keypad Devices / Table Top Buttons / TableTop C Status 0% Wed 2016/03/02 05:56:54 AM System Log

Keypad Devices / Table Top Buttons / TableTop D Status 0% Wed 2016/03/02 05:56:55 AM System Log

Gate Garage Door Controllers / Garage R-Sensor Status 0% Wed 2016/03/02 05:56:55 AM System Log

[paulbates]

Sorry that happened. As an FYI, devices from SmartenIT like the ezflora are immune to the all on.  These devices naming scheme starts with EZ-. 

 

Older versions of Insteon devices that can be controlled like switches and iolincs and the naming scheme ends with -linc; these devices listen for the 'all on' and are likely to respond to it. The 'all on' feature was removed in many of the devices manufactured in the last couple of years

 

Paul

 

 

Ok, had this happen to me at 5:55am this morning and I have 2 separate programs that turn on a 2 devices at 5:55am so it seems related.  This has never happened to me before today.  Almost all of the lights turned on and both garage doors opened, sprinklers stayed off.  .....

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi saphotoexpress,

 

I am so very sorry to hear.

 

If the logs you have posted are from the time that you think All On happened, then it's NOT an All On since ISY knows about it. What I would look for is a program that turns on/off:

Scene:Garage FP Test On Wed 2016/03/02 05:55:00 AM Program Log

 

With kind regards,

Michel