Z-wave gets UL listing

[Guitartexan]

Latest News

Z-Wave Scores Huge UL Win for Security, a First for Mesh Technology

 

Latest super-secure Z-Wave technology mitigates smart-home hacking; will achieve UL 1023 compliance for intrusion, giving the home automation standard an edge in powering some 20 million security sensors and alarm panels each year.

"There was a big announcement yesterday about Z-Wave winning compliance from UL for life-safety (burglary) applications. While we won't see UL-listed Z-Wave sensors until much later in the year, the news is a really big deal. Professional security dealers have been stuck with one-way 300/400 MHz sensors for eternity. They install maybe 20 million of them every year. With UL listings for security, Z-Wave sensors will replace a good chunk of these legacy devices, which will reduce the cost of Z-Wave and, most importantly, create an end-to-end UL-listed ecosystem for both life-safety and lifestyle. Z-Wave door locks, garage-door controllers, security systems - just about everything except smoke/fire detection for now - will have the UL stamp of approval for encryption and anti-jamming. Come 2017, Z-Wave likely will become the new standard for wireless security. "

 

 

GT

[Teken]

Latest News

Z-Wave Scores Huge UL Win for Security, a First for Mesh Technology

 

Latest super-secure Z-Wave technology mitigates smart-home hacking; will achieve UL 1023 compliance for intrusion, giving the home automation standard an edge in powering some 20 million security sensors and alarm panels each year.

"There was a big announcement yesterday about Z-Wave winning compliance from UL for life-safety (burglary) applications. While we won't see UL-listed Z-Wave sensors until much later in the year, the news is a really big deal. Professional security dealers have been stuck with one-way 300/400 MHz sensors for eternity. They install maybe 20 million of them every year. With UL listings for security, Z-Wave sensors will replace a good chunk of these legacy devices, which will reduce the cost of Z-Wave and, most importantly, create an end-to-end UL-listed ecosystem for both life-safety and lifestyle. Z-Wave door locks, garage-door controllers, security systems - just about everything except smoke/fire detection for now - will have the UL stamp of approval for encryption and anti-jamming. Come 2017, Z-Wave likely will become the new standard for wireless security. "

 

 

GT

 

I believe this is a nice milestone for Z-Wave as well as the Home Automation industry. But having said this if you read the entire news release for the average person on the face of it things appear kosher.

 

No . . .

 

There are tens of thousands of products sold on the market that meet some specific UL / cUL requirements. It in no way makes them a great product or one any serious place of business or Government agency would use, ever.

 

I haven't seen the spec's of the units they cite but would be eager to see if they include the most common features now used in the field. Its one thing to say it has anti jamming and two way but when you break it down at what level and what instance does it operate?

 

Here is a question and a little bit insight for those not in the know . . .

 

Why did we as a market in security move away from or did (NOT) USE 900 MHZ 2.4 / 5.0 GHZ?

 

Why do battery operated RF products exist?

 

If you can't answer those basic questions for yourself with out first doing a Google search. I am afraid you fall into the exact demographic of who this product is geared toward.

 

There is absolutely nothing wrong in offering more choices especially when it has to do with the advancement of home automation which has lingered for 35 years!

 

The problem is the false sense of security that is being sold each and every day in retail stores like Best Buy / name any vendor. A perfect example are those people who truly believe buying some random table top alarm system called *Canary* is going to offer any real security are the same people who believe they can self monitor.

 

Self monitoring are for people who live in the bush and at that rate why bother? Is a bear going to break into your cabin in the deep woods? What are you going to do when you're 2 hours away on the crapper?

 

Oh, forgot your asleep, on the thrown, perhaps on vacation?

 

Back on topic: So now people believe its OK to use sub 900 Mhz frequencies which no sane company would use since the world is littered with baby monitors, old school phones, to toy remotes.

 

I know its all the rage to say *We use man-bear-pig-super duper encryption* Yeah I get it its a great marketing ploy and sells well for the ignorant. Back to the second question I posed above regarding why did battery operated RF devices come to be?

 

Again - I want anyone reading this reply from some random dude wearing his tin foil hat to ask that question and come up with a reasonable answer.

 

In closing, I give kudos to the Z-Wave camp at least trying to better the industry as a whole. Smartlabs should at least pretend they are in the same league as the Z-Wave camp with respect to trying to be taken seriously.

 

Bottom line, don't let yourself fall into this trap thinking its the magic bullet and will replace proven technology that is in place now. 

 

It wont . . .

[Guest Digger]

900 Mhz is WIDELY used for bidirectional RF Devices in Security applications in the US.  Most are for Commercial applications but it is currently starting to migrate down to Residential as costs drop.  It is replacing the 319Mhz that many legacy products used here in the US.

 

I don't know why you feel there are issues with it.  Baby monitors and cordless phones have no real impact on the use of this part of the spectrum if you understand the technology.  One thing that has held the industry back was that UL did not have published requirements up until very recently (in some cases they still are not published). 

 

One example is that the NFPA now permits the remote silencing of a Fire Alarm via a cell phone app in the 2016 Edition of NFPA 72. UL does not have a standard that address's that yet (it has been in the works for several years).  While it does not prevent the industry from providing that function many manufacturers will wait a few years for UL to catch up in case they have some specific caveat. Manufacturers do not want to have to redesign to meet the UL Standards it is very costly.

[Teken]

900 Mhz is WIDELY used for bidirectional RF Devices in Security applications in the US.  Most are for Commercial applications but it is currently starting to migrate down to Residential as costs drop.  It is replacing the 319Mhz that many legacy products used here in the US.

 

I don't know why you feel there are issues with it.  Baby monitors and cordless phones have no real impact on the use of this part of the spectrum if you understand the technology.  One thing that has held the industry back was that UL did not have published requirements up until very recently (in some cases they still are not published). 

 

One example is that the NFPA now permits the remote silencing of a Fire Alarm via a cell phone app in the 2016 Edition of NFPA 72. UL does not have a standard that address's that yet (it has been in the works for several years).  While it does not prevent the industry from providing that function many manufacturers will wait a few years for UL to catch up in case they have some specific caveat. Manufacturers do not want to have to redesign to meet the UL Standards it is very costly.

 

These are the analogies I am going to use in hopes of making my points clear. There are specific minimum codes in building a home we have all watched enough horror stories of homes meeting code on paper. In no way did any of these homes ever meet the common sense sniff test of being OK.

 

Again, there are tens of thousands of products that meet a specific UL / cUL requirement. In no way does it mean its a great product or will meet the real needs of a person or business. These are simply standards which have been defined so on paper what ever you buys should be OK in terms of operations and expected technical merits.

 

Is a drop cam really a Axis, Bosch, Pelco, security camera?

 

There are thousands of security alarm system that also meet residential UL 1023. Yet you will be hard pressed to find one of them used in any serious residential alarm install..

 

Keeping in mind if we go simply by specifications to meet this UL 1023 listing. Why then isn't one of the most common residential alarm systems used and deployed in these forums and others such as the ELK.

 

Not used in banks, hospitals, police, EMS, military, name any fortune 500 company? Why would something that can do pretty much everything from talking, turning on your lights, locking your doors, etc. 

 

Not be installed in such common businesses and institutions? 

 

The answer is simple, the system is not designed, programmed, or able to accommodate how the system will react, to required more stringent commercial UL / cUL requirements. One of the key things is command and control of a 3rd party system outside of the alarm panel.

 

Meaning no other, un-certified appliance may be attached to said security alarm panel that has direct command and control of the system.

 

My primary point in all of this is its great to see the Z-Wave camp push the envelope of their product and meet these much higher standards.

 

Absolutely nothing wrong with this at all and only makes the product better for all and forces the competition to do even better.

 

You listening Joe Dadda at Smartlabs?!?!

 

Even so, it does not supersede the need to understand there is more to just meeting a set criteria. Since no one has chimed in about why wireless RF devices have inundated the residential market place like lice. The primary reason it has been pushed and has been so successful is its cheap, convenient, and fast to deploy.

 

You actually don't have to pay or find a skilled person to fish wire, drill holes, use some critical thinking about the entire install. You will pretty much never have to worry about your business insurance ever going up because *Jack* drilled a hole through a water line!

 

Cut open a 120 VAC Romex line, ever . . .

 

What you will get is the *A Typical* plug and play - mount and dash - install . . .

 

Wireless has been and will always be for the lazy, inept, and unskilled who are in the security industry. You will not find one of the many listed business or entities I listed above using wireless as their primary means of monitoring zones in their system, ever . . .

 

Keeping on the same theme we are all very familiar with smoke alarms. Why then will you never see a First Alert One Link, Nest Protect, name any brand like these used in a serious install or those commercial spaces. Besides the fact they don't even have the same physical 4 wire connection or use the same power requirements.

 

For the sake of saying what if they did have the same wiring, voltage, specifications as commercial smoke / fire. Does anyone believe you would find such a product installed in a Enterprise install?

 

The answer is no . . .

 

For a moment lets switch gears about meeting standards. The latest rage is the smart locks and many of them meet grade 1 specifications. Why then will you not see such locks used in a bank? Police? Military? 

 

How about we even dumb it down a little further and say Walmart? Costco?

 

Maybe we will even dumb it down a little more and say McDonalds? Wendy's, Burger King?

 

I thought these locks met some kind of UL specification of grade 1?

 

The bottom line is these rules and certifications are there to bring the market into uniformity so there is some kind of known bench mark and expected build process and for a lack of a better word quality.

 

I use the word quality loosely because anyone who has taken even a small amount of time to see how Kwickset locks which meet specific UL listings with their adjustable rekey method.

 

Knows every lock smith in the industry is laughing along with serious people who enjoy seeing such locks sets in use. It only makes their lives easier to circumvent and break in. The latest rage is the Amazon Echo and now we are seeing the level of stupid pushed so far it defies commons sense.

 

Lets wait for it - What could that be?

 

People honestly believe its OK to program a voice system to lock and unlock your door?!?!

 

You got to be kidding me because that in it self pushed the boundaries of stupid its hard to process!

 

The adage is *Just because you can do a thing - does not mean you should*  

 

The perversion of technology like the whole cloud power are the perfect examples of something that worked perfectly fine when limitations were understood and respected. Now is so common all of the iSheep gobble it all up with out a second thought or consideration of the negative impact of such.

 

Then again we are surrounded by so many stupid people we as a society must actually place warnings on common things like hot chocolate, coffee, tea . . 

 

With labels stating hot liquid . . .

 

Are you too stupid to realize you just bought a cup of hot chocolate? Because if its not hot chocolate its normally called chocolate milk!

 

The reality is the entire market for the last 15 years has been filled with fad products in the consumer space. The negative impact of this direction has actually leaked over to the commercial space. People could ask how could that ever be? Well because like I just ranted on about 90% of all commercial installs were always hard wired.

 

Now many of the most respected brands offer wireless RF devices.

 

This was primary to meet the demands and needs of the stupid . . . But the industry tried very hard to ensure their wireless product was as robust as possible in every way as a hard wired unit.

 

Had to have the same fastening, lower energy consumption, tamper, LOS, POST, heart beat, RF rejection, temperature compensation, two way  signaling, push / polling, etc.

 

With respect to the 900 frequency band . .

 

These frequencies are allocated for in a general sense none mission critical use. Each segment of the band is defined in hopes of reducing interference. On paper it makes sense in reality this band is over crowded and is prone to cross talk, and intermediate RF interference.

 

Encryption: For ever and a day people have believed such things are infallible. Really? It was created by man and will be broken by man, period.

 

If what I am saying is a complete lie, over exaggeration, over hyping the topic. One only needs to look at any computer operating system system created by man. Microsoft, Apple, Name any Linux / Unix system has been patched for what?

 

Vulnerabilities . . .

 

Every encryption method has been cracked at some point and the next iteration is just pending to happen.

 

We have all seen TLS / SSL all advance over the years - The industry didn't go through 1.0, 1.1, 1.2 for fun.

 

Every major web browser has been patched and evolved why? They all met very stringent security at the time yet they were cracked and exploited. We have thousands of stories all across the world of Governments all using the best fire wall, anit virus, encryption, etc.

 

Yet they have been hacked, exploited, and data stolen from FBI, CIA, NSA, any 3 letter alphabet in the American Government. My point is its great to see the Z-Wave camp pushing their product line to come into a more respected industry standard.

 

But people shouldn't by default think life is all good and a bowl of cherries!

 

When I see hundreds of alarm installs all use wireless as their primary method of security. I already know the sales men is good at his job and at the same time a douche bag. I also know the client hasn't taken one second to do some due diligence about the topic and really doesn't care about security.

 

How can I say that with a straight face?

 

Because that is the brutal truth and the facts . . .

 

Not one of these people understand the most common aspect of force protection, none. None of these people will EVER do a walk test or know how to. They will never test their system on a annual basis to see if the sensors are well calibrated.

 

Nor will they ever actually do a power loss test, ever . . .

 

These same people will never call into the center and ask to have a duress code or pass phrase noted and documented. They will never have a panic button installed and placed in the bedroom.

 

They will never have a key pad in the master bedroom but will truly believe when the alarm goes off the best thing to do is leave their safe bedroom and run to the entrance and look at the panel?

 

These same people will be told its OK to use a set of keys to jingle around in the air to set, calibrate, and test a glass sensor?!?!

 

They will also never ever do a monthly smoke alarm test or even check the batteries but will simply wait for said device to cry in the middle of the night.

 

These same people will also never have the for thought to have any of the batteries for any of these battery operated devices on hand even if its a common AA, AAA, CR123, 3 volt lithium coin cell, ever . . .

 

To even imagine these same people to even consider mounting a siren outside high above in the garage so actual people can hear the alarm is near impossible to ever see happen. Because these same people believe once again they are smarter and better than a fully licenses Central Station (CS).

 

These same cheap aszz's are the ones asking for a complete wireless system or was pushed to buy a wireless system because they were too stupid to do their own homework to protect the only things that matter: Their family and home

 

But once again - Once the fad urge hits them you're going to see some random alarm company really offer - wait for it?

 

IFTT . . .

 

Yes, you read it hear first from yours truly Teken . . .

 

You will see some random company offer with your $19.99 monthly alarm monitoring something like IFTT or similar.

 

If they offer it - it must be OK right?!?!

 

Bottom line: Every industry is not infallible we all know this. Knowing this should we as consumers not try harder to use, deploy, and install things that are proven instead of what is easy and cheap?

 

OK, I am out of here and getting off the virtual soap box . . .

 

To the OP my humble apologies to taking your thread in such a huge tangent when the news should have just been read and enjoyed.

 

But you know me I gotta get that $0.0000000000000000000000000001 in!

 

Ha . . .

[jerlands]

Wireless has been and will always be for the lazy, inept, and unskilled who are in the security industry. You will not find one of the many listed business or entities I listed above using wireless as their primary means of monitoring zones in their system, ever . . .

 

Keeping on the same theme we are all very familiar with smoke alarms. Why then will you never see a First Alert One Link, Nest Protect, name any brand like these used in a serious install or those commercial spaces. Besides the fact they don't even have the same physical 4 wire connection or use the same power requirements.

 

Z-Wave is growing by leaps and bounds it seems and this new UL compliance is just offering more publicity.  I fully agree that hard wired security is the way to go but for those who are either in temp residence or as you put it inept this splash may have impact on their decision.

 

Today, Sigma announced that its new Z-Wave transceivers (models ZM5101, ZM5202, and ZM5304) with protocol SDK version 6.60 have been evaluated to UL’s standards for home security. The products feature anti-jamming and AES 128-bit encryption provisions like today’s less-capable UL devices.

 

I wonder how this is going to affect UDI's integration with the new devices?

 

 

Jon...

[Guitartexan01]

Teken, not everyone can afford a Bosch, Axis, or Pelco setup and multiplexer. Not everyone has that level of need for military and NSA grade alarm system at home.

You make valid points, but if that's what you desire, so be it. Others may feel comfortable in their setting trying this new technology in conjunction with their existing setup. That doesn't justify calling people lazy, inept, and unskilled- if that's what a customer wants to install. And no you will not find those businesses you pointed out using wireless. They have huge financial stakes at risk and equally a much bigger budget for security. I can almost hear you saying that your home is more valuable to you than any business, and I agree. But what are we cheap azzzzs to do when we don't have a pile of cash to spend on said rock solid hard wired security? Have nothing? Until such time as we can save a few bucks and buy piecemeal? Are we stupid to even use RF?

We wouldn't have RF now had it not been for a long list of people including Faraday, Franklin, Edison, Tesla, Marconi, etc. the point being that hard wired security started with a boulder rolled in front of the cave opening and progressed from there. It will keep progressing. Nothing can stop it. It is the way humans are.

Your arguments are solid. Your advice is good.

Your people skills? Hmmm.

Nobody likes to be called stupid.

 

And that's my .02

 

 

 

GT

[Guest Digger]

Teken I see you throwing around a lot of terms etc but do you really understand them?

 

There is no such thing as a UL Grade 1 specification. Grade 1 is a BHMA specification. While many UL Listed locks are also evaluated to BHMA and UL does evaluate products (as do many other labs) to BHMA standards they (UL) do not write the requirements for Grade 1.

 

Telling people they are cheap azzes because they didn't buy an ELK is just wrong. I was the Engineer that evaluated the ELK 10 years ago at UL. It's one of the best panels I have seen and use it myself. I also know that there are many other great panels/systems out there and have tested or used many of them to some degree.

 

RF devices have advantages over wired in some applications. The NFPA is actually steering its requirements towards RF and away from hardware such as using Cellular over POTS lines. Cellular has been permitted to be sole path since 2010 yet POTS was never permitted to be (you had to have two) in Commercial Fire. Why? Cellular is more reliable than POTS, is faster means of communicating and more redundant.

 

I don't know your background but from reading your posts I suspect you are not a Compliance Engineer. I am for the past 22 years and still don't think I know everything yet there is way to much to know.

 

Your entitled to your opinions but please don't call people cheap azzes because they don't agree with your choice of products or your opinions.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Teken]

Teken, not everyone can afford a Bosch, Axis, or Pelco setup and multiplexer. Not everyone has that level of need for military and NSA grade alarm system at home.

You make valid points, but if that's what you desire, so be it. Others may feel comfortable in their setting trying this new technology in conjunction with their existing setup. That doesn't justify calling people lazy, inept, and unskilled- if that's what a customer wants to install. And no you will not find those businesses you pointed out using wireless. They have huge financial stakes at risk and equally a much bigger budget for security. I can almost hear you saying that your home is more valuable to you than any business, and I agree. But what are we cheap azzzzs to do when we don't have a pile of cash to spend on said rock solid hard wired security? Have nothing? Until such time as we can save a few bucks and buy piecemeal? Are we stupid to even use RF?

We wouldn't have RF now had it not been for a long list of people including Faraday, Franklin, Edison, Tesla, Marconi, etc. the point being that hard wired security started with a boulder rolled in front of the cave opening and progressed from there. It will keep progressing. Nothing can stop it. It is the way humans are.

Your arguments are solid. Your advice is good.

Your people skills? Hmmm.

Nobody likes to be called stupid.

 

And that's my .02

 

 

 

GT

 

GT,

 

As always I should qualify my comments and you know from my past writings they are never directed toward the membership. They are normally stated in general terms and sometimes very specific as you noted my examples.

 

The core of the issues as I stated many times above are these:

 

1. Its great to see the home automation camp move forward in using and complying with known industry standards. This will ensure a measure of quality and known craftsmanship of said product.

 

It does not however mean just because you meet some piece of paper spec its a perfect solution.

 

The perfect example is the big 3 automobile makers every year they must meet some of the most stringent safety, fuel, and impact tests created by man. This has zero baring on the reliability, durability, and long term resale of said product. Meaning if their products were so good based on any of the specifications why would they have millions of recalls for defects?

 

You see?

 

There are so many elements which I know are present that will impact the final outcome. We have all seen, heard, read, and lived through the Insteon 2413S PLM!

 

This single device complies with many standards in this case they use ETL.

 

We all know this product has failed so many times because of cheap parts - as is the case with every car maker listed in the big 3.

 

2. Usage: I would never sit here and tell anyone to sit and wait for eons for something they could not afford. That not only is unrealistic but is hard to do when the need is present. What is key that I stress is people need to fully understand the limits and real world applications of such.

 

We know lots of people who have been using X-10, Insteon, Z-Wave now as the primary source of security. Nobody can say with 100% fact using such devices are even in the same league as a real $299.00 alarm system, none.

 

Does it work for many sure - Has it filled a financial gap where resources are limited, sure - Can it be relied upon for life and safety, no?

 

This area is not only grey for many like me its simply black and white.

 

Anyone who has even been remotely handy has a a hammer. Yet there are countless people around the world who are truly too stupid to go to the dollar store and buy said hammer but will instead use any impact tool or object to accomplish the same.

 

Using a brick to smash a nail gets the job done for sure . . .

 

Is it the right tool for the job, no.

 

Do people continue to use Insteon, X-10, Z-Wave, ZigBee, for security, yes!

 

Is it the right thing to do for life and safety, no . . .

 

At some critical point like anything that is technology related the gap will get closer and we all have seen this. Radio (RF) from its humble start did not have the distance, reliability, and rejection properties as we see today. The bulk of this came from TDMA, CDMA, and moving on to LTE etc.

 

Shifting to higher frequency's, encoding, burst signaling, compression, etc as we all have seen in related fields like audio. Back in the day we all saw the incredible break through in audio compression the humble MP3. By no stretch of the imagination was this audiophile quality but it served a need at the time because memory storage and bandwidth was very limited.

 

Later as technology advanced we saw ALAC, TTA, FLAC, VORBIS, MONKEY, etc. 

 

The bottom line in this regard is even the best technology can be abused if not understood or deployed correctly. Even the worst limited technology can help serve a gap but those limits and liabilities must be understood in kind.

 

3. Wireless RF: As indicate above my main point is know the limits and respect them. As you read I called out no less than 10 items with respect to ANY security system this has nothing to do with wired or wireless. That not one single person on this forum has ever done, ever . . .

 

If they did its because they took the time to read and be informed about what should be done to ensure a measure of compliance and operations. The perfect example I will use which many can relate to which is going to the gas station and filling up your car.

 

I can literally count on one hand a time I have seen a single person pull in and fill their car with gas. While waiting for said gas fill open the hood (bonnet) and pull the dip stick out and do three things: What is the color of the oil, what does it smell like, what level is it in from the low, mid, high?

 

I can guarantee the majority of people either wait for a phone call or wait for the idiot light to come on. That is just life but illustrates to you this on a most basic level isn't being done. Now lets change gears for a moment and consider if someone can't even check their smoke detectors based on the DST being changed to use that interval to check the operations of their smoke detectors batteries never mind pushing the freaking TEST button!

 

What makes you think any of these people will ever have even basic batteries on site to replace them when required, never. So now you have an entire home filled with batteries which costs you much more out of pocket over time. You have 99999 more chances for a zone to be unmonitored because you guessed it they are too lazy to replace, check, test, said sensor.

 

If we as humans could be trusted to even accomplish these very simple but tedious tasks then yes do it.

 

But human nature isn't that way - we all have things in life and the last thing we want to stress over is changing out batteries!

 

As I stated several times its not the technology that is a failure - its the lack of understand of the technology and knowing it requires work. People who can't even accomplish one of the things I listed from a basic monthly check surely won't be checking an entire home filled with battery operated devices over the course of the life of the install, none.

 

Anyone can sit here today and ask themselves when was the last time they did a TEST on their GFCI outlets. I can assure you maybe in this forum one or two and that is being generous.

 

The reality is it takes for thought, consideration, and knowing these are dumb tasks that must be done to ensure a measure of safety, compliance, and operations.

 

In closing my replies and statements are not intended to insult those in this forums or others. Its to call out people need to open their eyes and understand ALL TECHNOLOGY has been abused in commercial, residential, etc.

 

Its knowing how you will use it and know the limits of such - If deploying said RF based tech helps you achieve that goal good. All I want for any of our members or anyone in the world is to be safe, secure, and protect what matter the most life and property the worked so hard to get.

 

Teken, sounding out . . . 

[Teken]

Teken I see you throwing around a lot of terms etc but do you really understand them?

 

There is no such thing as a UL Grade 1 specification. Grade 1 is a BHMA specification. While many UL Listed locks are also evaluated to BHMA and UL does evaluate products (as do many other labs) to BHMA standards they (UL) do not write the requirements for Grade 1.

 

Telling people they are cheap azzes because they didn't buy an ELK is just wrong. I was the Engineer that evaluated the ELK 10 years ago at UL. It's one of the best panels I have seen and use it myself. I also know that there are many other great panels/systems out there and have tested or used many of them to some degree.

 

RF devices have advantages over wired in some applications. The NFPA is actually steering its requirements towards RF and away from hardware such as using Cellular over POTS lines. Cellular has been permitted to be sole path since 2010 yet POTS was never permitted to be (you had to have two) in Commercial Fire. Why? Cellular is more reliable than POTS, is faster means of communicating and more redundant.

 

I don't know your background but from reading your posts I suspect you are not a Compliance Engineer. I am for the past 22 years and still don't think I know everything yet there is way to much to know.

 

Your entitled to your opinions but please don't call people cheap azzes because they don't agree with your choice of products or your opinions.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

I'm going to keep this very simple: Will you see a ELK installed in any of the for mentioned installs which I called out whether it be police, hospital, EMS, Military, Banking, name any fortune 100 company . . .

 

With my comment about being a cheap aszz - Again please note the qualification of such.

 

Its easy to get lost and focus upon someone indicating the perversion and abuse of ANY technology reflects a poor understanding of its use, limits, and purpose.

 

If someone decides to use a brick to drive a nail into a wall because he is too cheap to go to the dollar store that makes them a cheap aszz. If the same person is too stupid to even take a moments look using any search engine and even have a *glint* of critical thinking.

 

And say the best thing for me is to deploy dozens of battery operated devices in my home instead of a tried and true method of hard wiring.

 

Yes that makes you lazy . . .

 

Obviously there are many use cases people can cite whether some random person is living in a rented apartment. Sure, it would not be possible to drill holes in someones (own) property on a temporary basis. In kind these same people which I can assure you probably 1% have what???

 

You guessed it rental insurance . . .

 

Why?

 

Because these same people are too cheap, lazy, and had no clue to even think about it.

 

That is a simple fact the bulk of us are cheap, we like value, we want the most for less.

 

That is the simple reality of life and if that wasn't true China wouldn't exist!

 

Now we can go around circles about what label does what for certification in the big picture those are details which are irrelevant to the root of the issue.

 

My comment which you never addressed was why would you never see a smart lock (name any brand) on a bank? At Costco, McDonalds?

 

What was my point? People are saying it met some kind of standard in this case I called out grade 1 lock sets which is the highest residential rating.

 

It is NOT a commercial rating and even if it was it still would not be used, deployed, and installed in any of these settings, ever.

 

The point I am driving home is it doesn't matter how high the standards are (IF) the person using said device does not respect the limits, design, and principles of said equipment. Since you stated you're some kind of compliance officer for what ever industry / business you're keenly aware of how many of the points I have made here are valid.

 

You also can affirm in your own personal travels that people have, will, and continue to do exactly all the things I stated above. It may not be PC to call these iSheep stupid, inept, or lazy.

 

But the simple truth is we all know they are . . .

 

Does that reflect on the good standing of the people here, no.

 

There lots of people now reading this comment and can absolutely relate to every thing I just stated. There are probably more people (now) reading this, that are insulted.

 

Why?

 

Because they are doing exactly the thing I stated 9999999999999999 times above. But (IF) they are honest about it and unbias they know I am right.

 

As I stated to GT this isn't about yelling out to people you're stupid, lazy, and inept. That simply gets people upset and angry and the message gets lost on the receiver.

 

There seriously comes a time when someone needs to speak up and stop sugar coating topics. You and I can relate because you and I share like views on many issues.

 

Insteon not withstanding - Ha!

[Guest Digger]

Teken,

 

I find you calling people cheap azzes, stupid and lazzy etc very offending. 

 

I will just block you so I don't have to see you calling people who do not agree with you all kinds of names etc.

 

Again you are entitled to your opinions but you may want to be a little less offending on how you characterize anyone who you feel does not do things they way you think they should.

[Teken]

Teken,

 

I find you calling people cheap azzes, stupid and lazzy etc very offending.

 

I will just block you so I don't have to see you calling people who do not agree with you all kinds of names etc.

 

Again you are entitled to your opinions but you may want to be a little less offending on how you characterize anyone who you feel does not do things they way you think they should.

Again, you decided to read what you wanted and ignored the key fundamental of the information provided.

 

Regardless my comments had no reflection on you or any other person in this forum or others.

 

It does pertain to how people use, abuse, and believe it's fine in doing so.

 

I won't lose any sleep honestly because ultimately these are facts.

 

We both can agree to disagree on this but let's call a spade a spade.

 

Ignoring to reply back about my specific question about why such wares like the ELK alarm panel is not being used in any of the business / industries. Is the perfect example of proving my point.

 

It surely meets several UL listings we a know this. Does it meet them all, no!

 

Even if it did - you guessed it - it still would NOT be used in any of the industries I called out, ever.

 

End of story . . .

 

 

=========================

To bestow knowledge is power - But only if it promotes positive results in others.

 

The highest calling in life is to serve ones country faithfully - Teach others what can be. Do what is right and not what is popular.

[Guest Digger]

Teken,

 

Unforrtunately I can not block you as that feature is not enabled this forum (I asked Michel). SO I will just sign off and leave.

 

Again your posts are offensive when you call people Cheap Azzes, Stupid and lazy.  There is no need for that just because people dont agree with your beliefs etc.

[Teken]

Teken,

 

Unforrtunately I can not block you as that feature is not enabled this forum (I asked Michel). SO I will just sign off and leave.

 

Again your posts are offensive when you call people Cheap Azzes, Stupid and lazy. There is no need for that just because people dont agree with your beliefs etc.

Well that's unfortunate, really. Once again ignoring the facts listed above doesn't change the fundamentals does it?

 

If you so choose to ignore what I have restated several times as to using the offending phrases that is your problem.

 

Again we both can agree to disagree I am fine with that.

 

Lastly, your failure to address any of my points as listed only affirm the facts. Anyone who has even spent five minutes to google the topic will quickly realize everything I stated is valid and supported by facts.

 

 

=========================

To bestow knowledge is power - But only if it promotes positive results in others.

 

The highest calling in life is to serve ones country faithfully - Teach others what can be. Do what is right and not what is popular.

[Guest Digger]

Teken,

 

I was told by another member that now you are now slandering  me.  I have no time to nor do I care to "google" your opinions.  I really dont care what your opinions are I just find it offensive that you call people who do not beleive in your opinions stupid, lazy etc.  You can believe whatever you want but to call people names who do not have the same beliefs is something that really doesn't belong on a forum like this.

 

I don't even know why I wasted my time to even come back and look. 

 

Goodbye.

[Teken]

What is with all the drama?

 

LOL . . .

 

Address the facts already and stop the crying about names not even directed toward you or otherwise.

 

It's the state of the market end of story move along.

[Guest Digger]

Again I was told by a friend you continue to attack.

 

Michel please delete my account ASAP since you seem to agree with Teken.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Teken]

Again I was told by a friend you continue to attack.

 

Michel please delete my account ASAP since you seem to agree with Teken.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Digger,

 

Listen, you and I don't have to agree on anything simply put. Don't let my writings affect your involvement in any social media whether it be here or otherwise.

 

Your replies of name calling, delete my account, etc indicate other issues you need to resolve. If people can not have a open discussion and discourse of random topics why even bother talking at all.

 

If you felt offended than I shall state that was never my intent and would feel compelled to say sorry. So I am sorry if you're offended by my writings and point of view. I make no apologies in stating my ideas, thoughts, and views, ever.

 

Regardless, it doesn't address the facts I presented here.

 

You asked me questions and I replied back with examples and facts. You on the other hand have not for what ever reason and that is fine. I am not here to fight or argue with people I am simply here to share my thoughts and views. Having opposing views is the greatest things ever allowed in the free world.

 

Stay, leave, doesn't matter to me really . . .

 

Letting someone like me stop you from participating is really a decision up to you. 

[Guitartexan01]

I would just like to say that I believe Teken really doesn't intend to be offensive most of the time. usually he delivers good information backed by solid advice. He can at times be long winded, but that's alright. He just tends to comes across a bit course when people may disagree or choose a different path.

Teken, I know you are trying to help people realize and recognize things. just approach it with the thought that how would 'I' take it if this seemed 'directed at me', even though your just 'directing' in general. Lots of members out here in the ether take it that you're pointing at them, even though you may not be.

Let's all get along and keep the lines of communication open. We learn as we go and there's always room to shake hands and put the thing behind us. This forum is big enough for everyone to have their own opinions and not force them on others. We can lay out facts and discuss from there.

 

 

GT

[Teken]

I would just like to say that I believe Teken really doesn't intend to be offensive most of the time. usually he delivers good information backed by solid advice. He can at times be long winded, but that's alright. He just tends to comes across a bit course when people may disagree or choose a different path.

Teken, I know you are trying to help people realize and recognize things. just approach it with the thought that how would 'I' take it if this seemed 'directed at me', even though your just 'directing' in general. Lots of members out here in the ether take it that you're pointing at them, even though you may not be.

Let's all get along and keep the lines of communication open. We learn as we go and there's always room to shake hands and put the thing behind us. This forum is big enough for everyone to have their own opinions and not force them on others. We can lay out facts and discuss from there.

 

 

GT

 

You're correct and once again I apologize if the method in which I stated my thoughts were offensive to others. As stated, I see great value in this endeavor which the Z-Wave camp has taken. It will push the HA industry and their competitors to take note and hopefully they too will see value in doing the very same.

[apostolakisl]

I think  it is safe to say that there are not 2 ways to do  this stuff (right and wrong), there are infinite gradations.  

 

Principles to follow:

1) Security investment should be adjusted according to the value of the item(s) being secured.

2) Security investment should be adjusted according to the probability of a loss event

3) Security system should be adjusted to have acceptable levels of user convenience/annoyance.  

4) Understand that nothing is secure, only less insecure.

 

Understanding those 4 principles, and then understanding what the various security products are capable of should allow an appropriate installation.  Building codes, UL listings, etc exist mostly for legal reasons.  At their heart, they try to make those 4 things work, but in specific situation they could be way off base.

 

Now before someone says you can't apply a value a human life yadda yadda yadda, well you can and you do (yes, that includes you, the guy who say you can't) all the time everyday of our lives.

 

Other considerations

1) Locks only keep out honest"ish" people

2) Security alarms only notify people who must then act (the shutgun with a trip wire, or the 220v electrified door handle are not good ideas!).  OK, maybe the snare wire that catches the crook by the ankle and hangs him from the ceiling is a good idea, at least it sounds like a fun one.

[Teken]

I think  it is safe to say that there are not 2 ways to do  this stuff (right and wrong), there are infinite gradations.  

 

Principles to follow:

1) Security investment should be adjusted according to the value of the item(s) being secured.

2) Security investment should be adjusted according to the probability of a loss event

3) Security system should be adjusted to have acceptable levels of user convenience/annoyance.  

4) Understand that nothing is secure, only less insecure.

 

Understanding those 4 principles, and then understanding what the various security products are capable of should allow an appropriate installation.  Building codes, UL listings, etc exist mostly for legal reasons.  At their heart, they try to make those 4 things work, but in specific situation they could be way off base.

 

Now before someone says you can't apply a value a human life yadda yadda yadda, well you can and you do (yes, that includes you, the guy who say you can't) all the time everyday of our lives.

 

Other considerations

1) Locks only keep out honest"ish" people

2) Security alarms only notify people who must then act (the shutgun with a trip wire, or the 220v electrified door handle are not good ideas!).  OK, maybe the snare wire that catches the crook by the ankle and hangs him from the ceiling is a good idea, at least it sounds like a fun one.

 

Absolutely, life is very much about balance, compromise, and individual use cases. One thing people rarely mention is insurance and how it will ultimately make you whole.

 

I don't care where you live or what kind of system you have. If your home is sucked up by a tornado nothing will make you whole other than insurance. Your home lights on fire from what ever reason - Insurance is the only thing that will make you whole.

 

Insurance obviously won't make a person whole if loss of life is the outcome.

 

With respect to security many of us have been blinded by the use of technology and the convenience it offers. I won't sit here typing and lie to anyone that I don't appreciate, enjoy, or use any of the technology.

 

I do, otherwise why would I be in this forum?

 

The primary driver is stick to the basics as with anything in life. No grade 1 smart lock will protect the front entrance made of complete glass. This is seen everywhere I go from the ghetto to the hills of the rich and famous.

 

With respect to the Z-Wave UL listing it will be very interesting to see what companies will go through the effort to meet this certification. As I mentioned above if (name who ever) company uses the same proven methods as others in the security industry but the only difference is its Z-Wave enabled.

 

We have a winner . . .

 

I am rather surprised it hasn't been done in reverse for all these years? Meaning why haven't we seen (name what ever company) use existing tech and simply add in Z-Wave?

 

Sadly this industry has always been super slow in adopting and using new technology. Lots of it I can understand because back in the day you simply could not trust cellular, IP. The service and bandwidth was simply too slow and restricted. 

 

My fear is some companies are pushing the envelope of security where its just to cater to the current fad. You can mark my words you will see BLE and WiFi only alarm systems not just from the toy like companies but from mid tier vendors.

 

The biggest threat to the industry as a whole is full on operating systems in the main board. When a alarm panel can be impacted by common file extensions or requires a reboot.

 

You have literally crossed the barrier of stupid on every level . . .

 

There isn't one major security alarm panel in the industry that has ever required a user to reboot their main panel because it was locked up using certified firmware code.

 

Can you imagine I had to tell someone to reboot their alarm panel because some process was hung?!?!?

 

We have all seen this with Android phones - 25 years ago if you told me the humble cell phone could be affected by a virus I would have laughed at you. No one is laughing because these devices are no longer a phone they are a full on computer which is poorly designed to limit access to the core services they were intended for.

 

This is why when I see and play with these multi purpose alarm panels that have great bells and whistles but at the heart of them is Linux kernal.

 

People need to take pause why that is unacceptable and the wrong thing to do. If we quickly change gears for a moment when the Americans and Mosad were able to off load highly proprietary code to blow up Irans nuclear program.

 

Does anyone want to know how near impossible that feat was? This code and operating system for a lack of a better word is not common in the wild. It is made and heavily guarded by the Siemens company who did in fact helped both of these countries to alter the code to make the devices go out of control and explode.

 

Meaning there was zero possibility such an event could ever happen because the operating system is so uncommon and controlled nobody can hack it.

 

The only way it could be is by the maker of said code!

 

What does that have to do with security alarm panels? Because you're going to see a shift in none proprietary OS to more common Linux / Unix based systems. You will also see in the market place completely cloud hosted services using thin client solutions.

 

Thin clients have never been intended for any home or business security ever. Yet people in the industry believe this is the best move going forward!

 

This is the endless perversion of technology I see everyday. People taking good tech and using it for unintended use cases and expecting a positive outcome.

 

The reality is when you see tens of thousands of toy like devices like Wink, Smartthings, being sold and gobbled up by the masses when compared to a ISY. What does that tell you about the people who bought them?

 

Its also disturbing to see the very same thing happen in the energy monitoring arena. We have the likes of Smappy, Neurio, Sense, and their like telling people they can accurately measure and tell you everything running in your home by two CT's and software alone?

 

I suppose all the huge and known companies like Brultech, Eaton, Leviton, HOBO, all got it wrong when they monitor all the breakers with individual CT's? 

[Jamison_IO]

I only read the first couple walls of text, but I do know a fair amount about UL and the process and Teken has a point (but damn, dude, you sure have a way of putting it!) - most standards are only evaluating safety, primarily from a electrical shock and fire hazard perspective. UL 1023 is a life safety standard, so it is more rigorous (most on the duty cycle side), but for the most part it is enclosures, water/dust ingression, over/under voltage, etc. It is definitely not a measure of quality only that is meets the minimum levels set by the standards writer. 

 

If you are curious about the standard at all, let me know I have a copy.