kohai Posted February 25, 2016 Posted February 25, 2016 A relative of mine has a vacation home. It seems there's always something that crops up and remote monitoring of "things" could be helpful to cut off problems early. I'm curious what some of you would choose to monitor. Scenario: - The home is pre-wired for an alarm system but nothing is installed. - 1 furnace, 1 zone (I think), furnace is in crawl space under house - 2 water heaters on top floor, softwater as well - DSL internet (poke-your-eye-out slow) - Home is empty 80% of the time, guests stop by all times of year - Winter gets 2-4 ft of snow - Summer gets into the 90s F at hottest time of year in the day (has air conditioning) - Winters get down to 0 F at coldest time of year @ night What would you add to monitor the house? (I have some ideas based on problems that have occurred but I'm curious to hear your ideas.)
Teken Posted February 25, 2016 Posted February 25, 2016 Before all of the bells and whistles I would encourage them to review their home owners insurance policy and determine (IF) it has enough coverage and the proper coverage. None of the bells and whistles will make a person whole or compensate them against: Flood, Fire, Act of God, Break In, Vandalism, 3rd party liability, etc. Next, is a good neighbor that is on site most of the time when they are not . . .
kohai Posted February 26, 2016 Author Posted February 26, 2016 As a starting point, if choosing an alarm system, which are known to have easy integration with ISY? (I am only familiar with DSC using nodelink)
DennisC Posted February 26, 2016 Posted February 26, 2016 As a starting point, if choosing an alarm system, which are known to have easy integration with ISY? (I am only familiar with DSC using nodelink) I would suggest Elk M1 Gold alarm system and the ISY Elk module. Dennis
MWareman Posted February 26, 2016 Posted February 26, 2016 I would suggest Elk M1 Gold alarm system and the ISY Elk module. Dennis This. ISY and the Elk M1 (via the M1XEP module) have native integration. Less to go wrong. They also make a pretty powerful combination! All my security sensors are also automation triggers...
kohai Posted March 4, 2016 Author Posted March 4, 2016 Is the ELK a DYI install for someone that is technical enough to handle an ISY ok?
MWareman Posted March 4, 2016 Posted March 4, 2016 Is the ELK a DYI install for someone that is technical enough to handle an ISY ok?Officially, no. However, plenty of us have been successful (myself twice).
stusviews Posted March 4, 2016 Posted March 4, 2016 My understanding is that the Elk is especially meant for a DIYer. There is some technical reading, but if you can create simple programs, then you can program the Elk. In any case, as MWareman indicated, there's lot's of help on this forum.
DennisC Posted March 4, 2016 Posted March 4, 2016 Is the ELK a DYI install for someone that is technical enough to handle an ISY ok? That's going to depend on how much you want to install (door/window sensors, motion sensors, etc) and how comfortable you are with doing wiring. Dennis
kohai Posted March 4, 2016 Author Posted March 4, 2016 That's going to depend on how much you want to install (door/window sensors, motion sensors, etc) and how comfortable you are with doing wiring. Dennis There's 6-7 wires pre-run. My hesitation is that I have no idea where they run to. Wiring would be fine for me, but possibly tracing a wire that's behind a door jam and having to drill a hole and fish it out might take some finesse.
DennisC Posted March 4, 2016 Posted March 4, 2016 There's 6-7 wires pre-run. My hesitation is that I have no idea where they run to. Wiring would be fine for me, but possibly tracing a wire that's behind a door jam and having to drill a hole and fish it out might take some finesse.Installing an alarm system takes a little bit of finesse to insure no damage is done. Drilling holes, installing hidden switches, running wiring, and removing (and reinstalling) molding is part of the work. You need to determine what you want to install and how to complete the install and determine if you have the skill to accomplish the result you are looking for. Dennis
jerlands Posted March 4, 2016 Posted March 4, 2016 There's 6-7 wires pre-run. My hesitation is that I have no idea where they run to. Wiring would be fine for me, but possibly tracing a wire that's behind a door jam and having to drill a hole and fish it out might take some finesse. You can look at the window/door jam and likely see if a recessed sensor was installed. If so then you can test with ohm meter to see which pair goes where. Jon...
kohai Posted March 10, 2016 Author Posted March 10, 2016 If you were going to do a whole house water shut off (like http://www.elkproducts.com/product-catalog/elk-wsv-professional-grade-water-shutoff-valve ), would you go with the ELK model or with a z-wave model or put a z-wave module on the ELK? I know there are others out there like Watercop that are z-wave capable. http://www.floodcop.com/watercop-family-of-products/
Teken Posted March 10, 2016 Posted March 10, 2016 If you were going to do a whole house water shut off (like http://www.elkproducts.com/product-catalog/elk-wsv-professional-grade-water-shutoff-valve ), would you go with the ELK model or with a z-wave model or put a z-wave module on the ELK? I know there are others out there like Watercop that are z-wave capable. http://www.floodcop.com/watercop-family-of-products/ Regardless of the brand you buy some considerations of installing a bypass loop is paramount. Also, (IF) where this home resides has a fire sprinkler system it can not be installed before the water supply. The newly revised ELK unit has a real manual handle which is perfect. Others that use a simple plastic top dial are a disaster waiting to happen because you will never really know if the valve is fully open / closed. You also have to accept you will be turning that dial many times to either position and you will never know if its fully open / closed unless you checked prior to install. Prior to the install, basic tests such as the following need to be completed and documented. - Verify the rate of speed from open to close. - Cycle the device 50 times, a open-close is one cycle, you may be shocked to see what you find. - Confirm the ball valve position is fully open / closed and use a flash light to validate the position of the ball valve. - Confirm the position of the dial and note any variance from the home position. - Measure the current draw for the unit and cycle it 20-30 times to see if it holds steady. - Know the manufacturers cycle life limit and operate with in that threshold. - Ask yourself how do you know the valve is open / closed? Magic? How does the system determine each state? - What happens when you manually turn the valve with those having a top dial for open / close? Is there voltage present? - How does the system operate during a low voltage condition and does it default to some unknown state?
kohai Posted March 10, 2016 Author Posted March 10, 2016 Regardless of the brand you buy some considerations of installing a bypass loop is paramount. Also, (IF) where this home resides has a fire sprinkler system it can not be installed before the water supply. The newly revised ELK unit has a real manual handle which is perfect. Others that use a simple plastic top dial are a disaster waiting to happen because you will never really know if the valve is fully open / closed. You also have to accept you will be turning that dial many times to either position and you will never know if its fully open / closed unless you checked prior to install. Prior to the install, basic tests such as the following need to be completed and documented. - Verify the rate of speed from open to close. - Cycle the device 50 times, a open-close is one cycle, you may be shocked to see what you find. - Confirm the ball valve position is fully open / closed and use a flash light to validate the position of the ball valve. - Confirm the position of the dial and note any variance from the home position. - Measure the current draw for the unit and cycle it 20-30 times to see if it holds steady. - Know the manufacturers cycle life limit and operate with in that threshold. - Ask yourself how do you know the valve is open / closed? Magic? How does the system determine each state? - What happens when you manually turn the valve with those having a top dial for open / close? Is there voltage present? - How does the system operate during a low voltage condition and does it default to some unknown state? So, if I cycle it 50 times and I'm shocked, what am I shocked by? What would I be looking for? You obviously have experience with this. What is your preferred brand/model?
Teken Posted March 10, 2016 Posted March 10, 2016 So, if I cycle it 50 times and I'm shocked, what am I shocked by? What would I be looking for? You obviously have experience with this. What is your preferred brand/model? You will either see nothing in that it completes the full cycle from open to close with out issue. Or you will notice the time from open to close takes longer, current starts to rise, the motor starts to labor and get hot, the ball valve position is no longer coming back to the home position. Meaning if you look straight down the valve assembly you will start to notice some creep of the ball valve. This (play) is very common on low tolerance ball valves in the market. Another test to conduct on the motorized ball valve assembly is to activate the assembly and remove power. Observe what happens when you reapply power you may be surprised as to what happens. Lastly, as I indicated you really want to verify how the device operates during high / low voltage conditions.
DennisC Posted March 10, 2016 Posted March 10, 2016 If you were going to do a whole house water shut off (like http://www.elkproducts.com/product-catalog/elk-wsv-professional-grade-water-shutoff-valve ), would you go with the ELK model or with a z-wave model or put a z-wave module on the ELK? I know there are others out there like Watercop that are z-wave capable. http://www.floodcop.com/watercop-family-of-products/ I have the Elk water valve installed at two locations and both are connected to an Elk M1 Gold panel. I would stay with the Elk water valve for several reasons. First, I consider water shut off a critical operation and I do not trust wireless solutions or any protocol like Insteon or Zwave for critical operations. If I consider an application critical it gets hard wired to my Elk. I also like that the Elk valve when wired to my M1 Gold panel provides status feedback. The status circuit is wired to the panel as a non alarm connection and I know when the valve is open and closed. Dennis
kohai Posted March 10, 2016 Author Posted March 10, 2016 I have the Elk water valve installed at two locations and both are connected to an Elk M1 Gold panel. I would stay with the Elk water valve for several reasons. First, I consider water shut off a critical operation and I do not trust wireless solutions or any protocol like Insteon or Zwave for critical operations. If I consider an application critical it gets hard wired to my Elk. I also like that the Elk valve when wired to my M1 Gold panel provides status feedback. The status circuit is wired to the panel as a non alarm connection and I know when the valve is open and closed. Dennis Good point, if it is critical then hard wire it. I assume that an ISY can still trigger the ELK valve via the ELK module. I've got a hot water heater under a sink upstairs that I wouldn't mind a leak sensor monitoring it (plus the regular water heaters).
larryllix Posted March 11, 2016 Posted March 11, 2016 There's 6-7 wires pre-run. My hesitation is that I have no idea where they run to. Wiring would be fine for me, but possibly tracing a wire that's behind a door jam and having to drill a hole and fish it out might take some finesse. There is a pair of tools that installers se called a "Toner" .Yo connect the signal end on the wire end yo see and locate the other end of the cable with the receiving probe style end. Then you drill a hole and pull the end of the cable through. Cover with the MS or other device when yo mount and connect them. You may be able to borrow one for and evening from a friend Telecom or cable TV worker, I am not sure if you can rent them at rental places.
jerlands Posted March 11, 2016 Posted March 11, 2016 There is a pair of tools that installers se called a "Toner" .Yo connect the signal end on the wire end yo see and locate the other end of the cable with the receiving probe style end. Then you drill a hole and pull the end of the cable through. Cover with the MS or other device when yo mount and connect them. You may be able to borrow one for and evening from a friend Telecom or cable TV worker, I am not sure if you can rent them at rental places. That's a good idea and some are fairly inexpensive. Jon...
DennisC Posted March 11, 2016 Posted March 11, 2016 Good point, if it is critical then hard wire it. I assume that an ISY can still trigger the ELK valve via the ELK module. I've got a hot water heater under a sink upstairs that I wouldn't mind a leak sensor monitoring it (plus the regular water heaters). The Elk controls the water valve through a relay on the panel, so yes, it can be controlled through the ISY. Status is connected to a non alarm zone. Dennis
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