Workaround programs for keypadlincs

[Mark Sanctuary]

----- The new way -----

 

This version is much more reliable and has much less wait time. This version came about from much discussion below and I brought it up to the top of the post. The ISY is using this program as a pass-through which it is making the (A) and ( buttons virtual controllers for the scene.

 

The reason to do this is the ISY will set all the lights according to its local levels thus avoiding the issue that the keypadlinc can only have one level for all the buttons on board. Lastly I have it check for both Off and On switched states so if for some reason the LED ends up off it will still work and return the LED back to an On state.

 

If
       Control 'Family Main (A) Evening Time' is switched On
    Or Control 'Family Main (A) Evening Time' is switched Off

Then
       Set  Scene 'Family Evening Time Scene' On

 

If
       Control 'Family Main ( Movie Time' is switched On
    Or Control 'Family Main ( Movie Time' is switched Off

Then
       Set  Scene 'Family Movie Time Scene' On

 

----- The old way -----

 

The keypadlinc has that darn quark that it can not store a different level for each button that has its LED turned on. So here is an example of some simple workaround programs to fix it.

 

If
   Control 'Family Main (A)' is On
Then
   Wait 5 seconds
   Set 'Family Main' 60%

If
   Control 'Family Main (B)' is On
Then
   Wait 5 seconds
   Set 'Family Main' 20%

This is working in parallel with the scenes that are also associated with these keypad buttons. Buttons © and (D) are both used for different off scenes so they don't need programs they just need the LED off on each button. There is a small delay for the light level to change but it at least works.

 

The 5 second wait is needed to let the linked scene complete first before turning on the load.

[Michel Kohanim]

Mark,

 

This is quite nice. One question though:

What you have is strikingly similar to just putting the keypad button in the same group as your lights and assign different onlevel/ramprates for each button light combinations?

 

With regards,

Michel

 

The keypadlinc has that darn quark that it can not store a different level for each button that has its LED turned on. So here is an example of some simple workaround programs to fix it.

 

If
   Control 'Family Main (A)' is On
Then
   Set 'Family Main' 60%

If
   Control 'Family Main (B)' is On
Then
   Set 'Family Main' 20%

This is working in parallel with the scenes that are also associated with these keypad buttons. Buttons © and (D) are both used for different off scenes so they don't need programs they just need the LED off on each button. There is a small delay for the light level to change but it at least works.

[Mark Sanctuary]

That does not work for me putting the main dimmer light in the same scene. It always takes on the keypadlinc default level. And in the ISY the load's slider in the scene always pops back to 100% when I try to change it in the scene. So should having the load in the scene let me set the level in the scene? If so we got a bug then.

[Mark Sanctuary]

I am going to try doing a "Factory Reset" and "Restore Device" on the keypadlinc's I have to see if I can clear up the issues I am seeing.

[Mark Sanctuary]

I did a “Factory Reset†on the keypadlinc's and the sliders are still snapping back to 100% in the scenes that are using the keypadlinc “All Off†workaround where you drop in the "load" and a "non-load" into the same scene.

 

I have not done a "Factory Reset" on the ISY before and have had lots of fiddling and testing since I first bought my ISY which started at firmware update 1.7 I think. I could have done something to corrupt my database (restoring an older ISY backup in a newer firmware version) in the past. I think I might just do a "Factory Reset" on my ISY and start from scratch, what do you think?

[Michel Kohanim]

Mark,

 

Factory resetting ISY should be your last resort and I don't recommend it now.

 

I am rather uncertain at what the problem is you are trying to solve. The KPL sub-buttons (a,b,c,d) do not have levels. Are you trying to turn on the KPL load button using one of its sub buttons? If so, why?

 

With kind regards,

Michel

I did a “Factory Reset” on the keypadlinc's and the sliders are still snapping back to 100% in the scenes that are using the keypadlinc “All Off” workaround where you drop in the "load" and a "non-load" into the same scene.

 

I have not done a "Factory Reset" on the ISY before and have had lots of fiddling and testing since I first bought my ISY which started at firmware update 1.7 I think. I could have done something to corrupt my database (restoring an older ISY backup in a newer firmware version) in the past. I think I might just do a "Factory Reset" on my ISY and start from scratch, what do you think?

[Mark Sanctuary]

I want to apologize if I am not conveying the issue well thru typing, it makes since to me on this side of the keyboard. I will create a step by step walkthrough of the issue I am seeing.

 

1. I start by finding my “all†scene which has my keypadlinc load in it. You can see here that I have the “Family Main (KP load)†and the “Family Main (KP D)†both in this scene. There is also another keypadlinc in this “all†scene too but I only need to demonstrate just with one of them because they all do this behavior.

 

 

2. Next I go into the scene by selecting the scene title. There I can see my sliders and, ah yes, the keypadlinc load is snapped to 100% while all the rest of the scene is still set at 50%.

 

 

3. So let’s fix the keypadlinc load to match the rest of the devices that are at 50% already. Now I have changed the main scene settings right, you would think.

 

 

4. At this point I would normally copy this to all the other “controllers†in the scene so all of them have the same scene settings, but wait, this is the first point where I can demonstrate the issue. I click on another scene, any scene, it does not mater. Then I click back on my “all†scene and this is what I see, the slider has popped back to its 100%. (((mumbles some words that no ears should here)))

 

 

So if I do try this by clicking on the “Family Main (KP D)†and try to set the level it behaves the same there too. After doing these steps if I try the keypadlinc (D) physical button nothing has changed, it still uses its default level to match the on of the LED button. So doc what do you think is wrong with the patient?

[Michel Kohanim]

Mark,

 

Ah, I see now. I bet you moved devices in 2.4.8 which had a known bug where it could not remove some of the links (related to a PLM bug). In 2.4.9, we have put a work-around to alleviate this a little bit. So, would you be kind enough to:

 

1. If you have your old backup from before 2.4.8, expert your programs, and then do File->Restore ISY and then followed by File->Restore Devices.

 

2. If you do not have your old back, please remove the KPL button from all your scenes, then remove the KPL itself, add it back, and try again.

 

With sincere apologies for the inconvenience.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[Mark Sanctuary]

Sounds good; no worries I am always up to a challenge. I will have to do the remove because I only keep the latest backup. I guess I should be keeping at lease one backup generation back. I think I have seen these issues for a long time, maybe all the way back to when the keypadlinc all off code in firmware 2.3 came out. I am excited to get this working correctly. I will let you know the outcome.

[Michel Kohanim]

Mark,

 

Thanks so very much for the enthusiasm. That might be true because this release is only trying to cover up a PLM defect (deletes the wrong records).

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

Sounds good; no worries I am always up to a challenge. I will have to do the remove because I only keep the latest backup. I guess I should be keeping at lease one backup generation back. I think I have seen these issues for a long time, maybe all the way back to when the keypadlinc all off code in firmware 2.3 came out. I am excited to get this working correctly. I will let you know the outcome.

[Mark Sanctuary]

Darn, that did not fix it.

 

1. I removed all the keypadlinc links.

2. I removed the keypadlincs from the ISY.

3. I restored all the devices left to make sure they where all updated

- (first time in a long time that restore devices did not give me an error)

4. Made a backup without the keypadlincs.

5. Factory reset the keypadlincs.

6. Tap added the keypadlincs back into the ISY.

7. Adding the keypadlincs a,b,c,d and load buttons to their scenes.

8. Tried to set the levels on the load for some of the scenes.

 

The snaping of the levels is still happening.

[Michel Kohanim]

Mark,

 

I am so sorry to hear that; we'll get to the bottom of this one way or another.

 

Ok, maybe I misunderstood the whole thing. So, let me see:

Are you trying to assign different on level/ramp rates for the same KPL load button, when controlled by another sub-button from the same KPL?

 

If this is the case, then you cannot (and I am so very sorry if I misunderstood your original question) because the linkage between the KPL buttons is not a group command; it's simply LED "follow me" logic on the KPL.

 

If this is not the case, then please send me an email to tech@universal-devices.com so that we can discuss it over the phone and figure out the next steps.

 

With sincere apologies,

Michel

 

Darn, that did not fix it.

 

1. I removed all the keypadlinc links.

2. I removed the keypadlincs from the ISY.

3. I restored all the devices left to make sure they where all updated

- (first time in a long time that restore devices did not give me an error)

4. Made a backup without the keypadlincs.

5. Factory reset the keypadlincs.

6. Tap added the keypadlincs back into the ISY.

7. Adding the keypadlincs a,b,c,d and load buttons to their scenes.

8. Tried to set the levels on the load for some of the scenes.

 

The snaping of the levels is still happening.

[Michel Kohanim]

Mark,

 

Reproduced the problem. No worries ... it's a bug!

 

So very sorry for all the exercise in ISY.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

Mark,

 

I am so sorry to hear that; we'll get to the bottom of this one way or another.

 

Ok, maybe I misunderstood the whole thing. So, let me see:

Are you trying to assign different on level/ramp rates for the same KPL load button, when controlled by another sub-button from the same KPL?

 

If this is the case, then you cannot (and I am so very sorry if I misunderstood your original question) because the linkage between the KPL buttons is not a group command; it's simply LED "follow me" logic on the KPL.

 

If this is not the case, then please send me an email to tech@universal-devices.com so that we can discuss it over the phone and figure out the next steps.

 

With sincere apologies,

Michel

 

Darn, that did not fix it.

 

1. I removed all the keypadlinc links.

2. I removed the keypadlincs from the ISY.

3. I restored all the devices left to make sure they where all updated

- (first time in a long time that restore devices did not give me an error)

4. Made a backup without the keypadlincs.

5. Factory reset the keypadlincs.

6. Tap added the keypadlincs back into the ISY.

7. Adding the keypadlincs a,b,c,d and load buttons to their scenes.

8. Tried to set the levels on the load for some of the scenes.

 

The snaping of the levels is still happening.

[Mark Sanctuary]

Ok, maybe I misunderstood the whole thing. So, let me see:

Are you trying to assign different on level/ramp rates for the same KPL load button, when controlled by another sub-button from the same KPL?

 

If this is the case, then you cannot (and I am so very sorry if I misunderstood your original question) because the linkage between the KPL buttons is not a group command; it's simply LED "follow me" logic on the KPL.

I think this is what I am trying to do (set different load levels for each a,b,c,d button on the same keypadlinc), but that is what I thought the workaround the ISY had implemented was intended to handle. Forgive me if I have gotten this wrong, it has been a while since 2.3 and my memory could have gotten tangled up.

 

I am trying to set the level to 60% on the KPL load in the scene that is linked to KPL button (A). And I am trying to set the level to 20% on the KPL load in the scene that is linked to KPL button (. The load is wired to the eight main can lights in our family room which I want to be able to have button (A) at 60% for family time and button ( at 20% for movie time.

 

Reproduced the problem. No worries ... it's a bug!

If that is the case that it's a bug I would love to have this capability fixed. If it is not a possible fix then the sliders should not be removed, but should be disabled in the scene, so we can see that the load is included in the scene, but they don't tease/tempt me to want to try and use them then.

 

Overall I really would like to find the solution to this very sad keypadlinc shortcoming (caused by Smarthome's shortsightedness) thru a workaround in the ISY mainsail code or thru a little ISY program.

[Mark Sanctuary]

Thanks for calling me Michel and discussing the keypadlinc and that it will never be able to have multiple levels saved to the buttons. The design of the keypadlinc will not ever make it possible.

 

The idea you gave me to work around it are good. I am considering the idea of adding a INSTEON In-LineLinc Dimmer added to the junction box in the attic and take the keypadlinc dimmer out of the loop completely which removes all the confusion of the keypadlinc device.

 

Please consider the idea I suggested that the sliders for the keypadlinc “load†be disabled (grey out) when they are in a scene with one of the “non-load†buttons since a user can't really adjust them anyways. It is important they are at least there visually so you know you have added them to the scene.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Mark,

 

You are quite welcome.

 

Well, the load button slider do actually work but they only change the "local" settings for the KPL (as they should). Taking them out might cause more confusion but, as you know, we are always eager to hear what our users think.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

Thanks for calling me Michel and discussing the keypadlinc and that it will never be able to have multiple levels saved to the buttons. The design of the keypadlinc will not ever make it possible.

 

The idea you gave me to work around it are good. I am considering the idea of adding a INSTEON In-LineLinc Dimmer added to the junction box in the attic and take the keypadlinc dimmer out of the loop completely which removes all the confusion of the keypadlinc device.

 

Please consider the idea I suggested that the sliders for the keypadlinc “load” be disabled (grey out) when they are in a scene with one of the “non-load” buttons since a user can't really adjust them anyways. It is important they are at least there visually so you know you have added them to the scene.

[Mark Sanctuary]

Could not sleep so why not check the forum...

 

If the slider has some function then we don't want to remove the ability to control it. But somehow can it be conveyed visually to the user what the real function is. With the sliders in the list one would think when seeing the slider there, "oh I can set the lighting level for the load dimmer in my scene". Maybe a "local" icon (not sure what a local icon would look like) next to the slider with hover bubble text.

 

What are local keypadlinc settings?

 

Is the local settings the one default on load level that all the non-load buttons share?

 

How do you make the non-load buttons function if they don't send scene commands?

 

Isn't everything that is linked to a non-load button a scene even if it's just one link?

[Michel Kohanim]

Mark,

 

I think you and I are talking about two different things:

 

Let's say you have a scene:

Scene XYZ:

KPL1.1 - Controller

KPL1.B - Controller

InlineLinc - Responder

 

Now:

If you click on XYZ, then there are are sliders for KPL1.B

If you click on KPL1.1, then there are NO sliders for KPL1.B

If you click on KPL1.B, then there are NO sliders for KPL1.1

 

So, which sliders are you talking about? This scenarios have been tested numerous times. If you see a slider where one should not be, please do send me the screen shots.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

 

1. There is NO slider for the Load button if you click on the sub-button

 

Could not sleep so why not check the forum...

 

If the slider has some function then we don't want to remove the ability to control it. But somehow can it be conveyed visually to the user what the real function is. With the sliders in the list one would think when seeing the slider there, "oh I can set the lighting level for the load dimmer in my scene". Maybe a "local" icon (not sure what a local icon would look like) next to the slider with hover bubble text.

 

What are local keypadlinc settings?

 

Is the local settings the one default on load level that all the non-load buttons share?

 

How do you make the non-load buttons function if they don't send scene commands?

 

Isn't everything that is linked to a non-load button a scene even if it's just one link?

[Mark Sanctuary]

Yes its the same thing other than my KPL load is as a responder.

 

Scene XYZ:

KPL1.1 (load) ------ Responder

KPL1.B (non-load) - Controller

InlineLinc ----------- Responder

 

XYZ scene should have a slider for the load KPL.1 button. But what is level slider setting? Is it the level on the load when I push KPL1.B? What is local level?

 

hee hee

[Michel Kohanim]

Mark,

 

I think we have to go back to the basics:

 

If you click on XYZ, then adjusting the sliders for KPL1.1 and ILL are applied IF AND ONLY IF you scene is activated by ISY

 

If you click on KPL1.B:

It can only turn on/off our KPL1.1 (load) --> NO SLIDER

The onlevel/ramp rates for the ILL, take effect IF AND ONLY IF activated by KPL1.B (when you click on the B button)

 

Regards,

Michel

 

Yes its the same thing other than my KPL load is as a responder.

 

Scene XYZ:

KPL1.1 (load) ------ Responder

KPL1.B (non-load) - Controller

InlineLinc ----------- Responder

 

XYZ should have a slider for the load KPL.1 but what is it setting then. A level the load will be if you push KPL1.B?

[Mark Sanctuary]

Oh this slider is for only when activated by the ISY. Thats confusing because my idea is set it a forget it. I only use the ISY to test and build my scenes. Then I use the buttons the rest of the time for real world use. So having a slider to only adjust launched from ISY is going to help in programs

 

...wait...wait...

 

I could use a program to listen to the (non-load) to launch the scene. Only bummers are if the ISY is down then it would not work, and there might be a bit more of a delay when launched.

 

If
       Control 'Family Main ( Movie Time' is On

Then
       Set  Scene 'Family Movie Time' On

[sceaton]

 

If you click on XYZ, then adjusting the sliders for KPL1.1 and ILL are applied IF AND ONLY IF you scene is activated by ISY

 

Woah ... this is DEFINITELY NOT what I expected, nor want!

 

If you click a node in "My Lighting" I expect you to be setting the local onlevel and ramp rate. (you are, then you have to know to air-gap to take effect)

 

If you click a SCENE name, however, I expect the sliders to be adjusting the onlevel and ramp rate of those responders for that scene, REGARDLESS of who is controlling it. (ISY, a KPL, SWL, Divine Intervention, etc)

 

I should be able to set a KPL button as a controller of a scene to fade on a group of lights. All of the responders in that scene should have their own custom on level and ramp rates; instead you're saying (and I'm witnessing) that they all default to instant ON. I'd need to write a program so that they ISY can call the scene and have the onlevel and ramp rates respected.

 

I still want scenes written out to the devices with the appropriate onlevel/ramp rates. When you write that link into each device of a scene, why aren't you writing the onlevel/ramp rate set in the scene?

 

I'm still new to the ISY, so maybe I'm missing something 'cause this seems really basic ... I had this functionality when programming scenes manually by tapping switches.

[sceaton]

Okay, you're right mark, I'm hijacking your thread ... I'll continue my confusion over here: http://forum.universal-devices.com/viewtopic.php?p=1722#1722

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello sceaton,

 

You can do all that you suggest and quite easily. If you don't mind, please read this thread http://forum.universal-devices.com/viewtopic.php?t=14 .

 

I think it will surely shed some light on how things work. In summary:

 

1. Setting on level and ramp rate on devices under My Lighting only impact the local on level/ramp rate; i.e. they take effect if and only if you do something to the device physically.

 

2. When you click on a scene, adjusting the on level/ramp rate for all the controllers and responders on the scene take effect if and only if they are activated by ISY (such as a schedule that turns on/off that scene)

 

3. Now, you can click on any controller within a scene, and then you are able to adjust the on level and ramp rate for all other devices in that scene. These settings will only take effect if you do something to the controller (such as your KPL button) physically.

 

In short, you have full flexibility of adjusting on level/ramp rates any which way you want.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[Mark Sanctuary]

Oh this slider is for only when activated by the ISY. That’s confusing because my idea is set it a forget it. I only use the ISY to test and build my scenes. Then I use the buttons the rest of the time for real world use. So having a slider to only adjust launched from ISY is going to help in programs

 

...wait...wait...

 

I could use a program to listen to the (non-load) to launch the scene. Only bummers are if the ISY is down then it would not work, and there might be a bit more of a delay when launched.

 

If
       Control 'Family Main ( Movie Time' is On

Then
       Set  Scene 'Family Movie Time' On

I used this idea above and it works great. Since its both controlled by the keypadlinc and in the future my universal remote I don't mind so much that the ISY is handling it directly. Besides I can remember when the ISY/PLM has locked up lately, I think its been a couple of months since the last time.

 

I will update my first post so it reflects what has been learned and discussed here.

 

Thanks Michel!