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Cannot determine Insteon Engine - Comm issues


Omegared

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I have about 4 SwitchLinc Dimmers, a couple of 6/8 button keypads, ToggleLincs, and a few battery operated devices (LeakSensor, Mini remote, motion detectors). This is a new install so this is the first wave of devices that I want to add. So far, I have only installed 2 of SwitchLincs Dimmers, 1 x 6 button keypad dimmer and 1 ToggleLinc. I wanted to start test linking to the ISY, unfortunately I have not been able to link a single device.

 

I've been reading the troubleshooting suggestions from other users on this forum for the last 4 days, and none of the steps I have taken to troubleshoot my system have helped. I have done a hard reset of the installed switches - I tried unplugging the ISY first / then PLM / plugged back the PLM and wait 30 sec/ plug back ISY. I have even tried a Restore Modem (PLM), although that was likely pointless since I have no links tables.

 

Here is the hardware, firmware and log info:

 

ISY 994i ZW (firmware : Insteon_UD994_OADR_v.4.3.26 / UI : Insteon UD994 v.4.3.26) - PS: What's OpenADR and is that the correct firmware for my ISY?

PLM 2413S V2.0 (PLM status/info: XX.XX.XX v9E / Connected)

 

Level 3 comm log: 

 

 

Mon 03/28/2016 02:27:20 PM : Start Insteon Device Linking Mode

Mon 03/28/2016 02:27:20 PM : [LNK-BGN     ] 02 64 01 00 06 
Mon 03/28/2016 02:27:43 PM : Stop Insteon Device Linking Mode, Final processing to follow
Mon 03/28/2016 02:27:43 PM : [LNK-END     ] 02 65 06 : : Unexpected, ignored (65)
Mon 03/28/2016 02:27:43 PM : [All         ] Writing 0 bytes to devices
Mon 03/28/2016 02:27:43 PM : [All         ] Writing 0 bytes to devices
Mon 03/28/2016 02:28:44 PM : [33 65 D7    ] Added to list of devices to link to ISY
Mon 03/28/2016 02:28:45 PM : [iNST-TX-I1  ] 02 62 33 65 D7 0F 0D 00
Mon 03/28/2016 02:28:45 PM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 33.65.D7 0F 0D 00 06                 (00)
Mon 03/28/2016 02:28:53 PM : [iNST-TX-I1  ] 02 62 33 65 D7 0F 0D 00
Mon 03/28/2016 02:28:53 PM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 33.65.D7 0F 0D 00 06                 (00)
Mon 03/28/2016 02:29:02 PM : [iNST-TX-I1  ] 02 62 33 65 D7 0F 0D 00
Mon 03/28/2016 02:29:02 PM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 33.65.D7 0F 0D 00 06                 (00)
Mon 03/28/2016 02:29:06 PM : [33 65 D7 0  ] Failed to add device, reason 3
Mon 03/28/2016 02:29:06 PM : [All         ] Writing 0 bytes to devices
Mon 03/28/2016 02:32:24 PM : [        Time] 14:32:25 0(0)
Mon 03/28/2016 02:46:49 PM : [ZWAVE-TX        ] [01030015E9]
Mon 03/28/2016 02:46:49 PM : [ZWAVE-RX        ] ACK
Mon 03/28/2016 02:46:49 PM : [ZWAVE-RX        ] [011001155A2D5761]...
Mon 03/28/2016 02:46:49 PM : [ZWAVE-TX        ] ACK
Mon 03/28/2016 02:46:49 PM : [ZWAVE-FW        ] Version 4.55 Static Controller Library
Mon 03/28/2016 02:46:49 PM : [uZW-CMD 17      ] Get Dongle Version
Mon 03/28/2016 02:46:55 PM : [All         ] Writing 0 bytes to devices
 

 

The pairing attempt above is with a ToggleLinc that is about 10' from the PLM/ISY. I'm also guessing that the ToggleLinc (#2466SW ) is not a dual-band device(?).

I tried Link Mode first, placed the ToggleLinc into link mode, when I press Finish nothing happens.

Adding via New Insteon device (I left the device type on Auto Discover) gives the "Cannot determine Insteon Engine" error.

Same scenario occurs when I attempt to link the Switchlincs, but these are installed on the same electrical line about 40' away along with the 6-button keypad.

 

I've read that the most commonly associated issues that have to do with communication are usually a result of improper bridging of electrical legs or electrical noise on circuit.

Since the only devices installed so far that can Dual-Link are the 6-button keypad and 2 x Switchlinc, and all of these are installed in the same switch box (i.e. same line), then I have not likely bridged the 2 phases? Do I keep adding the rest of the dual-band devices hoping that this solves the linking issue?

 

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If you can install two dual-band devices in near proximity but on different legs it may bridge.  You can look at your breaker panel and observe which leg the breaker is on in relation to the other.  The 120v breakers will be on one leg and alternate legs vertically and horizontally as shown below.

 

A             B

B             A

A             B

B             A

 

The best way to bridge IMO is using either two range extenders, lamplincs, on/off modules or a combination of any as they have more powerful RF transmitters than hardwired devices.

 

 

Jon...

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The Event Trace does not have the expected sequence of messages.  The message in Red below is missing which should have been generated when ToggleLinc Set button was pressed for 3-5 seconds.

 

Mon 03/28/2016 08:09:10 PM : Start Insteon Device Linking Mode

Mon 03/28/2016 08:09:10 PM : [LNK-BGN     ] 02 64 01 00 06 

 

Mon 03/28/2016 08:10:10 PM : [LNK-STAT    ] 02 53 M(01) gid=00 33.14.23 0141 43 

Mon 03/28/2016 08:10:10 PM : [33.14.23 00] Linked device type=01.41 fw=43

Mon 03/28/2016 08:10:10 PM : [33 14 23 0  ] Added to list of devices to link to ISY

Mon 03/28/2016 08:10:10 PM : [33.14.23 00] Device already added, ignored

Mon 03/28/2016 08:10:10 PM : [LNK-BGN     ] 02 64 01 00 06 

 

Once the necessary Dual Band devices have been powered on and confirmed they are on opposite 120v legs I suggest using New INSTEON Device.  Enter Insteon address of device being added to ISY.  Enter Name of choice and leave Auto Discover.  Be sure Event Trace is in LEVEL 3.  Click Ok and trace activity.  Post event trace if device does not add successfully.

 

Be sure the PLM is not on a circuit with other electronics that could interfere with Insteon traffic. 

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If you can install two dual-band devices in near proximity but on different legs it may bridge.  You can look at your breaker panel and observe which leg the breaker is on in relation to the other.  The 120v breakers will be on one leg and alternate legs vertically and horizontally as shown below.

 

A             B

B             A

A             B

B             A

 

The best way to bridge IMO is using either two range extenders, lamplincs, on/off modules or a combination of any as they have more powerful RF transmitters than hardwired devices.

 

 

Jon...

 Not correct. Breakers on the same horizontal level on the same leg of the split, single-phase electric supply. Breakers do alternate vertically.

 

A     A

B     B

A     A

B     B

A     A

.

.

.

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 Not correct. Breakers on the same horizontal level on the same leg of the split, single-phase electric supply. Breakers do alternate vertically.

 

A     A

B     B

A     A

B     B

A     A

.

.

.

 

Oops.. Thanks,

 

 

Jon...

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Thank you guys. As long as this error is an "expected behavior" caused by the possibility that the 2 legs of the circuit are not bridged, then I'll keep moving forward and add a few more dual band devices. I was checking to see if it's not a blatant issue comm issue with either the ISY or PLM. On the next wave of device purchases I am going to get 2 lamplincs, thank you for the recommendation.

 

Lee, you mentioned:

 

 

 

Once the necessary Dual Band devices have been powered on and confirmed they are on opposite 120v legs 

 

I read about the 4 tap test for the PLM on a few forums, is that still a recommended or useful test to run that I have bridged the 2 phases? The posts I read don't provide a lot of info regarding the test..

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I read about the 4 tap test for the PLM on a few forums, is that still a recommended or useful test to run that I have bridged the 2 phases? The posts I read don't provide a lot of info regarding the test..

 

It's the only way to be sure the opposite legs of the split, single-phase electric supply are bridged for Insteon signals (unless you have a hard-wired coupler).

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Just for the record, on my panel, an older GE my breakers ( half height ) follow this pattern

 

A A

A A

B B

B B

A A

A A

B B

B B

 

etc.

 

That's true for, as you stated, half-height breakers. Any one standard breaker can be replaced with two half-height breakers, each on the same leg.

 

Just wondering, do you not have any 220/240VAC devices which require yoked full height breakers--or a master breaker/interrupt (which is sometimes in a separate box)/?

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Just wondering, do you not have any 220/240VAC devices which require yoked full height breakers--or a master breaker/interrupt (which is sometimes in a separate box)/?

 

I'm thinking this question is for Broyd, but I'll just throw my info in the mix, in case it might provide some insight to the original issue:

 

Most of the appliances are pretty standard 220/240 devices (AC, Dryer, Oven, etc), they are all on two-pole breakers..

 

However, it's an older house that I'm renovating and I ran out of space on the main panel, so I connected a secondary half-panel (connected to the main panel via a two-pole 50 amp breaker).

There are a few 220/240 devices on the secondary panel such as AC unit and dryer.

 

Can this secondary breaker panel provide additional challenges to bridge the phases?

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Sub-panels (panels that are fed from the main panel) are not a problem. Panels with separate feeds from the power company should each be bridged.

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Thanks for all your help, after adding a few additional dual-band devices over the weekend everything started working and have been able to link all the dimmers and other devices to the ISY. yey!

 

However, nothing is ever easy and I seem to have a hold-out. The culprit is the same ToggleLinc switch (2466S) which I originally posted the log above, it was the device I was mainly testing during the early process and was giving me issues with linking (the "Cannot Determine Insteon Engine" error).

I did a hard reset, turned the switch on and off, and then by some miracle it now linked. Shortly after successful link however, it followed by the "Cannot communicate with device" and red exclamation mark.

Here is the synopsis so far:

I just did some troubleshooting on it and the strangest thing is happening... I can only communicate with the ToggleLinc when the switch is at OFF.

When the switch is ON, I get the Exclamation mark and no communication error. When it's OFF, I can Query it and it recognizes that it needs to receive updates (the icon next to the device is the green "11010" icon).

It was refusing to Write the Updates to device giving me the "cannot communicate error" repeatedly, so I just pulled the switch out of the wall to check wiring, seems ok.

With the device still pulled out of the wall, I turned the device on and off a few times, placed it OFF and again by some miracle it just accepted to write updates to device!!

Now, I can query it when it's OFF and send an "ON" command and it works, it turns on the exterior lights. However, as soon as it does, I get the communication error and the red exclamation mark.

I have to go and manually turn the switch OFF for it to re-communicate.

 

Here is the level 3 log of sending the "ON" command and then once the error appears.. I try to send "OFF" command, nothing happens:

 

 

Sun 04/03/2016 08:40:57 PM : [iNST-TX-I1  ] 02 62 33 65 D7 0F 11 FF

Sun 04/03/2016 08:40:57 PM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 33.65.D7 0F 11 FF 06          LTONRR (FF)
Sun 04/03/2016 08:41:01 PM : [D2D EVENT   ] Event [33 65 D7 1] [ERR] [1] uom=0 prec=-1
Sun 04/03/2016 08:41:01 PM : [  33 65 D7 1]      ERR   1
Sun 04/03/2016 08:41:07 PM : [iNST-TX-I1  ] 02 62 33 65 D7 0F 13 00
Sun 04/03/2016 08:41:07 PM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 33.65.D7 0F 13 00 06          LTOFFRR(00)
 

 

Any ideas? Is it a defective device or bad wiring or ... supernatural occurrences (kidding)?

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Thanks for all your help, after adding a few additional dual-band devices over the weekend everything started working and have been able to link all the dimmers and other devices to the ISY. yey!

 

However, nothing is ever easy and I seem to have a hold-out. The culprit is the same ToggleLinc switch (2466S) which I originally posted the log above, it was the device I was mainly testing during the early process and was giving me issues with linking (the "Cannot Determine Insteon Engine" error).

I did a hard reset, turned the switch on and off, and then by some miracle it now linked. Shortly after successful link however, it followed by the "Cannot communicate with device" and red exclamation mark.

Here is the synopsis so far:

I just did some troubleshooting on it and the strangest thing is happening... I can only communicate with the ToggleLinc when the switch is at OFF.

When the switch is ON, I get the Exclamation mark and no communication error. When it's OFF, I can Query it and it recognizes that it needs to receive updates (the icon next to the device is the green "11010" icon).

It was refusing to Write the Updates to device giving me the "cannot communicate error" repeatedly, so I just pulled the switch out of the wall to check wiring, seems ok.

With the device still pulled out of the wall, I turned the device on and off a few times, placed it OFF and again by some miracle it just accepted to write updates to device!!

Now, I can query it when it's OFF and send an "ON" command and it works, it turns on the exterior lights. However, as soon as it does, I get the communication error and the red exclamation mark.

I have to go and manually turn the switch OFF for it to re-communicate.

 

Here is the level 3 log of sending the "ON" command and then once the error appears.. I try to send "OFF" command, nothing happens:

 

 

Any ideas? Is it a defective device or bad wiring or ... supernatural occurrences (kidding)?

 

I can only communicate with the ToggleLinc when the switch is at OFF. <<-- This may indicate the load on the switch is creating such noise that it can't communicate or (and far fetched) a wiring issue.  What type of bulb is being used?

 

 

Jon...

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The load which is controlled by this switch is 2 Exterior lamps. Each lamp has 2 bulbs - Luminus 23W (equivalent to 100w) spiral CFLs.

 

I'm not sure what other devices are found on this particular power line, I can check that tomorrow by turning off the the breaker and verifying.

 

I have another ToggleLinc (same model) installed on another line, that one only controls 1 exterior lamp (2 bulbs) as opposed to 4. That ToggleLinc gave me an red exclamation error once, immediately after I linked it, but it's been error free since.

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CFL's are notorious for creating noise and interfering with Insteon comms.  Pull them out then test again (doesn't even need to be anything in the socket.)

 

 

Edit:  Be sure to cover up the sockets when finished for safety.

 

 

 

Jon...

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CFL's are notorious for creating noise and interfering with Insteon comms.  Pull them out then test again (doesn't even need to be anything in the socket.)

 

 

Edit:  Be sure to cover up the sockets when finished for safety.

 

 

 

Jon...

 

Thanks! Will do!

 

If test is successful and the fault lies with the CFLs... should I replace with LEDs?

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Thanks! Will do!

 

If test is successful and the fault lies with the CFLs... should I replace with LEDs?

 

LED's can also cause issues but yes... that is the way.  I use Cree (homedepot) without issue while others disagree so you might investigate a little (search the forum.)

 

 

Edit:  All my Cree's are the high end dimmable type (has the exterior heat sink)

 

Jon...

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I've has success dimmable with Sylvania and Cree bulbs, but not with dimmable Philips. All three brands non-dimmable LEDs have worked for me.

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That's true for, as you stated, half-height breakers. Any one standard breaker can be replaced with two half-height breakers, each on the same leg.

 

Just wondering, do you not have any 220/240VAC devices which require yoked full height breakers--or a master breaker/interrupt (which is sometimes in a separate box)/?

Sorry for the delay stusviews, I hadn't looked at this thread in a while. Yes, I do have 220/240 volt breakers. For 40 amps or less, the breakers consist of two half height breakers riveted together with the trip/reset toggles tied together with a pin. But there is no internal connection. The breakers larger than 40 amps are two full height breakers bonded as above but they have a bar bonding the toggles.

See THQL and THQP breakers.

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I've removed the CFL's, left a covered empty socket, and tried communicating with the SwitchLinc while it was ON. Still giving me Communication error, but it's intermittent now, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't:

 

 Fri 04/08/2016 09:50:20 : [iNST-TX-I1  ] 02 62 33 65 D7 0F 19 00

Fri 04/08/2016 09:50:20 : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 33.65.D7 0F 19 00 06          LTSREQ (LIGHT)
Fri 04/08/2016 09:50:29 : [iNST-TX-I1  ] 02 62 33 65 D7 0F 19 00
Fri 04/08/2016 09:50:29 : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 33.65.D7 0F 19 00 06          LTSREQ (LIGHT)
Fri 04/08/2016 09:50:38 : [iNST-TX-I1  ] 02 62 33 65 D7 0F 19 00
Fri 04/08/2016 09:50:38 : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 33.65.D7 0F 19 00 06          LTSREQ (LIGHT)
Fri 04/08/2016 09:50:42 : [D2D EVENT   ] Event [33 65 D7 1] [ERR] [1] uom=0 prec=-1
Fri 04/08/2016 09:50:42 : [  33 65 D7 1]      ERR   1
Fri 04/08/2016 09:53:08 : [iNST-TX-I2CS] 02 62 33 65 D7 1F 2F 00 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 D0
Fri 04/08/2016 09:53:08 : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 33.65.D7 1F 2F 00 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 D0 06        (00)
Fri 04/08/2016 09:53:17 : [iNST-TX-I2CS] 02 62 33 65 D7 1F 2F 00 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 D0
Fri 04/08/2016 09:53:17 : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 33.65.D7 1F 2F 00 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 D0 06        (00)
Fri 04/08/2016 09:53:26 : [iNST-TX-I2CS] 02 62 33 65 D7 1F 2F 00 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 D0
Fri 04/08/2016 09:53:26 : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 33.65.D7 1F 2F 00 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 D0 06        (00)
Fri 04/08/2016 09:53:50 : [iNST-TX-I1  ] 02 62 33 65 D7 0F 19 00
Fri 04/08/2016 09:53:50 : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 33.65.D7 0F 19 00 06          LTSREQ (LIGHT)
Fri 04/08/2016 09:53:59 : [iNST-TX-I1  ] 02 62 33 65 D7 0F 19 00
Fri 04/08/2016 09:53:59 : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 33.65.D7 0F 19 00 06          LTSREQ (LIGHT)
Fri 04/08/2016 09:54:08 : [iNST-TX-I1  ] 02 62 33 65 D7 0F 19 00
Fri 04/08/2016 09:54:08 : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 33.65.D7 0F 19 00 06          LTSREQ (LIGHT)
Fri 04/08/2016 09:54:09 : [iNST-SRX    ] 02 50 33.65.D7 33.5C.61 2F 0D FF           (FF)
Fri 04/08/2016 09:54:09 : [std-Direct Ack] 33.65.D7-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=3
Fri 04/08/2016 09:54:09 : [D2D EVENT   ] Event [33 65 D7 1] [ERR] [0] uom=0 prec=-1
Fri 04/08/2016 09:54:09 : [  33 65 D7 1]      ERR   0
Fri 04/08/2016 09:54:09 : [D2D EVENT   ] Event [33 65 D7 1] [sT] [255] uom=0 prec=-1
Fri 04/08/2016 09:54:09 : [  33 65 D7 1]       ST 255
Fri 04/08/2016 09:54:09 : [D2D EVENT   ] Event [33 65 D7 1] [OL] [255] uom=0 prec=-1
Fri 04/08/2016 09:54:09 : [  33 65 D7 1]       OL 255
Fri 04/08/2016 09:54:09 : [D2D EVENT   ] Event [33 65 D7 1] [RR] [28] uom=0 prec=-1
Fri 04/08/2016 09:54:09 : [  33 65 D7 1]       RR  28
 

 

Could there be a short on the wiring? Since it's an outside junction box, would rust on the wires cause this?

any other leads that I can investigate as to why it would be this intermittent?

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It looks like something else is powered on some cycle that when On device 33.65.D7 does not either receive or cannot send response.   There is no response for multiple Query and 0x2F commands.  When 33.65.D7 does ACK the Hops Left=3 indicates good comm.  See what else is powered that turns On and Off.

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Could there be a short on the wiring? Since it's an outside junction box, would rust on the wires cause this?

 

A short circuit would cause the circuit breaker to pop. Copper wires don't rust, but if the connection is not tight, an insulating film can build on the surface of the wires (which can be scraped off with a knife).

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  • 1 month later...

i'm receiving an error linking a new switch (2474dwh) ... see level 3 event log below ... i've done an "airgap" reset twice with no luck ... the switch is in a ten foot radius of 7 other successfully linked switches... i'm using UD firmware rev v,4.4.6 ... there are >70 switches and devices all working perfectly in my home ... any ideas what may be wrong? thanks in advance, dan

 

Thu 05/26/2016 07:10:56 AM : [3d e7 22    ] Added to list of devices to link to ISY
 
Thu 05/26/2016 07:10:56 AM : [iNST-TX-I1  ] 02 62 3D E7 22 0F 0D 00
 
Thu 05/26/2016 07:10:56 AM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 3D.E7.22 0F 0D 00 06                 (00)
 
Thu 05/26/2016 07:10:57 AM : [iNST-SRX    ] 02 50 3D.E7.22 39.00.97 23 0D 02           (02)
 
Thu 05/26/2016 07:10:57 AM : [std-Direct Ack] 3D.E7.22-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=0
 
Thu 05/26/2016 07:10:57 AM : [iNST-TX-I1  ] 02 62 3D E7 22 0F 10 00
 
Thu 05/26/2016 07:10:57 AM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 3D.E7.22 0F 10 00 06          ID-REQ (00)
 
Thu 05/26/2016 07:11:06 AM : [iNST-TX-I1  ] 02 62 3D E7 22 0F 10 00
 
Thu 05/26/2016 07:11:06 AM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 3D.E7.22 0F 10 00 06          ID-REQ (00)
 
Thu 05/26/2016 07:11:07 AM : [iNST-SRX    ] 02 50 3D.E7.22 39.00.97 23 10 00    ID-REQ (00)
 
Thu 05/26/2016 07:11:07 AM : [std-Direct Ack] 3D.E7.22-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=0
 
Thu 05/26/2016 07:11:07 AM : [iNST-SRX    ] 02 50 3D.E7.22 01.24.42 83 01 65           (65)
 
Thu 05/26/2016 07:11:07 AM : [std-Broadcast] 3D.E7.22-->01.24.42, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=0
 
Thu 05/26/2016 07:11:07 AM : [3D E7 22 0  ] Calibrating engine version
 
Thu 05/26/2016 07:11:07 AM : [iNST-TX-I2CS] 02 62 3D E7 22 1F 2F 00 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 D0
 
Thu 05/26/2016 07:11:07 AM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 3D.E7.22 1F 2F 00 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 D0 06        (00)
 
Thu 05/26/2016 07:11:16 AM : [iNST-TX-I2CS] 02 62 3D E7 22 1F 2F 00 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 D0
 
Thu 05/26/2016 07:11:16 AM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 3D.E7.22 1F 2F 00 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 D0 06        (00)
 
Thu 05/26/2016 07:11:25 AM : [iNST-TX-I2CS] 02 62 3D E7 22 1F 2F 00 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 D0
 
Thu 05/26/2016 07:11:25 AM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 3D.E7.22 1F 2F 00 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 D0 06        (00)
 
Thu 05/26/2016 07:11:29 AM : [3D E7 22 0  ] Failed to add device, reason 9
 
Thu 05/26/2016 07:11:29 AM : [All         ] Writing 0 bytes to devices
 

 

ISY-Events-Log.v4.4.6__Thu 2016.05.26 07.11.45 AM.txt

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