This is really hard for me... where do I begin?

[MWareman]

You talk about cloud being free and services dying off because of that, thus making a point to pay for the infrastructure and I agree you have to pay to keep a service going if you like it.

 

But then in the next breath you say you dont want your investment to become obsolete. So wouldnt this be the reason to pay once and be done so it can be on your local machine?

Not once have I said cloud is free.... Cloud has costs. In many cases, vendors have alternate income streams such that they can absorb the cost of the service, making it appear free to the consumer. Amazon do this (to run the cloud services behind Alexa). Smarthome do this (to run the cloud service behind the Hub). Wink also do this... thru their logo program manufacturers pay them. IFTTT is a 'free' (to consumers) cloud service, that costs vendors $1000's per year to be on.

 

My concern it with buying a device that won't run without its associated cloud service. ISY is *not* in that category.

That being said - I also want to integrate with some cloud-only services that I simply cannot do directly, but I can easily do via the Portal (and it's IFTTT capability thru the Maker channel). I can tweet a command to my home and have my home react to it - via IFTTT (maker channel) and the portal for instance. I can send a text message to my Twilio number and have my ISY respond to it - again via the Portal. I couldn't do this before the Portal was available.

 

Now, these integrations can also be put together 'for free' using mostly open source software and hardware. However, ID rather pay $25/yr for this to just work than invest the many hours that would otherwise be required.

Edited May 10, 2016 by MWareman

[Scottmichaelj]

Not once have I said cloud is free.... Cloud has costs. In many cases, vendors have alternate income streams such that they can absorb the cost of the service, making it appear free to the consumer. Amazon do this (to run the cloud services behind Alexa). Smarthome do this (to run the cloud service behind the Hub). Wink also do this... thru their logo program manufacturers pay them. IFTTT is a 'free' (to consumers) cloud service, that costs vendors $1000's per year to be on.

 

My concern it with buying a device that won't run without its associated cloud service. ISY is *not* in that category.

That being said - I also want to integrate with some cloud-only services that I simply cannot do directly, but I can easily do via the Portal (and it's IFTTT capability thru the Maker channel). I can tweet a command to my home and have my home react to it - via IFTTT (maker channel) and the portal for instance. I can send a text message to my Twilio number and have my ISY respond to it - again via the Portal. I couldn't do this before the Portal was available.

 

Now, these integrations can also be put together 'for free' using mostly open source software and hardware. However, ID rather pay $25/yr for this to just work than invest the many hours that would otherwise be required.

 

 

I think your misunderstanding me. I know "technically" cloud services are not free. I am not going to counter your points as I feel we getting off topic as to what the OP is after. You have made your point and I have as well. I think bringing up other alternatives is what was asked and depending on the person "man hours" can add up and maybe a valid point or may not. So while there is a benefit to the ISY portal if he did not want to go that route I offered him an alternative. I think your getting a bit over technical of what he wants. Sure you feel the ISY portal is a good investment, so by all means pay. I am not disputing you, this or the fee etc. However there are alternatives that are free to use and therefore wanted to point it out. It won't take that long to setup and then he can decide if its right for him or if he wants to pay. The other thing was justification of use/purchase. He may find like myself the novelty quickly wears off with the Echo. I am also putting my money where my mouth is to sorts by offering my time to help him over the phone set it up.

 

Not to continue to push the issue, but does raise what I think is a valid point? Is the ISY a "Home Automation" controller or a HUB? I keep hearing people say I can tell it to turn on the lights or scenes or when I walk into the house do this. My response is, Home Automation is not doing those things but those things being done for you automatically. Whats the difference of telling the Echo to do something or hitting a switch? The INPUT is done by the USER, instead of truly being automated. Your just adding a "feature".

[Scottmichaelj]

Thanks Scott, After I get it the software installed, I'll definitely be contacting you!  I'm really interested in getting better control of my Hunter-Douglas shades.  Their proprietary remote really sucks, I'd love to be able to use my IR remote, or the Echo.

 

WRK, thanks for your detailed post, it's very helpful.  Dogs are funny, our dog is a slow learner, when the doorbell rings, she runs to the actual chime in the hallway, not the front door. I like your idea of a motion sensor to turn on a light for that purpose.

 

~Jay

 

 

Depending on the shades I can help you too. I am familiar with the Platinum Bridge. The power view is a whole other beast. Whenever your ready or if you need help installing the software let me know.

[Teken]

My thoughts on the topic at hand is its always great to have options. The free market was built upon the principle of having options and I see all of these different platforms as an option for those either technically inclined or not.

 

I know in past threads Michel replied back that he struggled with making the ISY Portal a subscription based service. Like me, he isn't a fan of subscription based services but made it so. My understanding is the portal will be a nice extension of the ISY and not reliant on it.

 

Unfortunately at some point there will be features or services which are dependent on the portal where it literally makes the user dependent on it.

 

So this is a slippery slope to be in moving forward . . .

 

Speaking for myself only its very hard for me to accept paying anyone for something I own. But on the other hand I see great value in the portal because in a round about way it helps the company see steady revenue. The reality is its near impossible to keep making money over the long term simply on new buyers alone.

 

Once you buy the controller and all of software modules - what other reoccurring income will UDI ever see?

 

None . . .

 

So, for me spending $49.00 USD every two years is a small return on investment which UDI has given me ten times over. Anyone who has been here long enough knows I have no problem throwing anyone under the bus. Much less expressing my thoughts about various topics that come up from time to time.

 

Even though I wish UDI would take on a different approach on various features / services. Ultimately the company and its product is the best in class in almost every area from customer service, support, and product development. The UDI team has been working hard in the development of the Z-Wave platform and know at some point it will be the market leader in the same.

 

Michel is passionate about his company, people, and the world as a whole.

 

 

 

 

[stusviews]

For me, HA involves controlling each and every device in my home that needs controlling from wherever I am in my home as well as having events occur without intervention. Most of those device do not need intervention when I am away.

 

I've accomplished most of HA using the ISY. I have a Keypad in a desktop enclosure within reach of nearly every seat we use. Most wall switches are Keypads (ISY). Virtually ever window covering is motorized and plays out on schedule (ISY) although we have manual control too, for example, Somfy wall controllers and handhelds and, also, Keypads and Mini Remotes (ISY). But every one of those needs to be within easy reach. Pragmatically, voice is the best controller when I'm on a ladder, under the desk or more commonly, both hands are occupied.

 

OTOH, being able to control those devices using your voice is just pure fun, but the equipment to allow and maintain that easily requires paying rent. There are single cost solutions that do not involve reinventing the wheel, but they do require making the wheel .

[MWareman]

 

 

There are single cost solutions that do not involve reinventing the wheel, but they do require making the wheel .

I think that right there captures the distinction between subscribing to a Portal, and rolling your own. What correct for each person depends mostly on their wheel making skills.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello everyone,

 

Thanks so very much for the lively discussion and all the input and feedbcak. As Teken suggested, as a company, our philosophy is pretty much anti-cloud. This said, we had no choice but to use the cloud for certain services such as Echo and IFTTT. To be perfectly frank, we are still paying off the initial development costs for the portal.

 

Although we will add a lot more features to the portal, this said, these features will only be isolated to services that are cloud dependent. If there is any way to avoid the cloud, we will.

 

Thanks again,

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[Jay M]

hi Michel, thanks for contributing.

 

I also hate being cloud dependent, but like you said, sometimes it's necessary and very helpful.  My favorite cloud service is Dropbox.  If the cloud goes away, my files are still on my computers.  

 

Port forwarding, and messing with the router and stuff like that never works for me.  I can't even get Plex to work outside of my house.  

 

Maybe I'll give the portal service a try.  I've blown $50 on a steak before.

 

Software development must cost a fortune.  I own a $700 audio mixer that works with a free iPad app, I also work on a $25,000 mixer that has a free app, but it's not as good as the app for the $700 mixer.  Then I spoke to a guy who makes a $250,000 mixer, and he was griping that his customers are expecting a free iPad app.  From a customer's point of view, the more more you pay for hardware, the more that should included with it.  I think from his perspective, they only sell a handful of mixers a year, so to spend $20,000 to develop an app is seen as a complete loss.  In my opinion, iPad integration is an essential feature for any digital mixer.

 

Because I paid significantly more for the ISY than I would have paid for the Insteon Hub, I kind of expect the portal to be included in the cost.  From Nest, to Hue, to DIY security systems, and even my car, you set up a free account to access them remotely.  Most consumer products don't require you to pay extra.  

 

ISY is a niche product with no real competitors.   My only option is to take it or leave it.  I'm happy that such a powerful and affordable system exists for the DIY market.  I can't afford a real home automation solution.  Insteon + ISY gives a lot of power and reliability at a fraction of the cost of a "real" system. 

 

~Jay

[Goose66]

I think that right there captures the distinction between subscribing to a Portal, and rolling your own. What correct for each person depends mostly on their wheel making skills.

Well, and the utility of their time. I love to tinker, and I was early in writing Alexa skills. But it takes more time than I have to create and maintain an actual working solution. I am doing the same thing now with chat bots, but I don't think I will have a marketable solution from it. Just want to make sure I understand the latest "thing" (which is necessary for my career so that I can relate to my clients).

Edited May 11, 2016 by kingwr

[stusviews]

From a customer's point of view, the more more you pay for hardware, the more that should included with it.

 

Quality matters more. For example, I have an audio amplifier that has only left volume, right volume and an on/off switch that originally sold for more than $1000 nearly five decades ago. It still has unbelievable sound. At 200wpc, I can raise the volume beyond the point of pain without discernible distortion.

 

Too, a bare bones Ferrari costs considerably more than a fully equipped Ford

[oberkc]

Hijack alert!!!  Turning myself in.

 

 I own a $700 audio mixer that works with a free iPad app

 

 Cannot pass this one up.  What mixer? (I use the Behringer X32 rack, and it has been very nice.) 

 

Sorry I could not help myself. 

 

Alert terminated.

[Jay M]

Hijack alert!!!  Turning myself in.

 

 Cannot pass this one up.  What mixer? (I use the Behringer X32 rack, and it has been very nice.) 

 

Sorry I could not help myself. 

 

Alert terminated.

 

 

 

It's ok, this thread is already out of control!  I was referring to the Mackie DL1608.  If I'm not mistaken, it was the first iPad controlled mixer... or maybe Presonus was, but Presonus required that a computer be attached to the mixer for the iPad app to work.  I also own an X32.  The ability to roam the venue as you mix is invaluable.  The $25,000 mixer I was referring to is a Yamaha CL3, and the $250,000 mixer was the top of the line Digico.  Mackie and Behringer can have about 10 devices attached controlling it, but the Yamaha can only have one.  It would be nice if Yamaha could do what the cheap stuff does. It's also a pain in the butt to get that one iPad to work with the Yamaha, whereas on the cheap Mackie and Behringer it's as easy as attaching to public WiFi.

 

~Jay

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Jay M,

 

My pleasure and thanks so very much for the feedback. I totally understand your point and it makes a lot of sense. Please note that you have 30 day money back guarantee so if you don't like it, you can return it free of charge.

 

Thanks again and with kind regards,

Michel

[oberkc]

It's ok, this thread is already out of control!  I was referring to the Mackie DL1608.  If I'm not mistaken, it was the first iPad controlled mixer... or maybe Presonus was, but Presonus required that a computer be attached to the mixer for the iPad app to work.  I also own an X32.  The ability to roam the venue as you mix is invaluable.  The $25,000 mixer I was referring to is a Yamaha CL3, and the $250,000 mixer was the top of the line Digico.  Mackie and Behringer can have about 10 devices attached controlling it, but the Yamaha can only have one.  It would be nice if Yamaha could do what the cheap stuff does. It's also a pain in the butt to get that one iPad to work with the Yamaha, whereas on the cheap Mackie and Behringer it's as easy as attaching to public WiFi.

 

~Jay

Yes, i looked at the 1608 mackie. The one that best matched my interests was the behringer x18 air, but it was only a rumor when I was upgrading. I have used one of the yamaha boards like that one, and also regularly use the 32AI Presonus boards (really like the workflow and ipad app).

 

Sound mixing is one of my hobbies and passions.

[larryllix]

Quality matters more. For example, I have an audio amplifier that has only left volume, right volume and an on/off switch that originally sold for more than $1000 nearly five decades ago. It still has unbelievable sound. At 200wpc, I can raise the volume beyond the point of pain without discernible distortion.

 

Too, a bare bones Ferrari costs considerably more than a fully equipped Ford

I should dig my old 64K byte statuic memory board out of the dump then. The memory quality should kms (US=miles)  better than the massive GigaByte memories today for only $20, as I paid almost $1000 for it, populated to 32K with 16 x 2K rams, but it was only 2MHz access speed?  Buyers anyone?

 

Wait!... I paid almost $100 for a box of 10 floppies too...

 

DIT: The floopies were not $1000

Edited May 12, 2016 by larryllix

[stusviews]

I should dig my old 64K byte statuic memory board out of the dump then. The memory quality should kms (US=miles)  better than the massive GigaByte memories today for only $20, as I paid almost $1000 for it, populated to 32K with 16 x 2K rams, but it was only 2MHz access speed?  Buyers anyone?

 

Wait!... I paid almost $1000 for a box of 10 floppies too...

 

The 50 year old amp I'm referring to sells for more than $1000 now. Sometimes, one is available on eBay for a bit less

 

BTW, I've been using floppy disks ever since they were 8" in diameter. You really fell into it if you pair $1000 for a box of 10. Were they gold plated?

 

Here's a current eBay link for the amp. I don't know why it has an Apple logo.

Edited May 12, 2016 by stusviews

[Teken]

McIntosh was a very high end audio maker in the past and continues to be. But sadly the seller is having a wet dream if he believes that amp will fetch $1200.XX USD.

 

The whole Ad screams sucker . . .

 

You can tell he didn't take very much care in the power amplifier as its been beaten to death. On the Audiogon rating scale he would get a F for cosmetics alone. I personally don't believe he spent $800.00 to supposedly get the amp tuned. If he did it just means hes just another sucker who falls in the same audio camp who truly believe spending $2K on a power cable will *Open the sound stage* like its some kind of fairy dust to these people.

 

Having been heavily invested in the high end audio / video arena the single most negative thing that has come out of the field. Are the countless pansy reviewers who use words and phrases only a used car salesmen could appreciate.

 

Companies like Bryston, Krell, Livingston, Nakamichi, etc don't need unicorn fairy dust to sell there wares. The equipment is just solid and built to last unlike all of the latest toys on the market place.

 

Back in the day companies like Bob Carver, DBX, Onkyo, Sony, Denon, all made incredible A/V gear. Sadly, most of the stuff being churned out is pretty mediocre. 

[stusviews]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/McIntosh-MC2200-Solid-State-Amplifier-200w-Type-044637-/351708797655?hash=item51e37a5ad7:g:wYcAAOSwHnFVoAwX

 

http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/wsh/ele/5548035394.html

 

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/solid-state-mcintosh-mc-2200-200-wpc-at-8-ohms-plus-2016-04-30-amplifiers-11050-2468-port-washington-ny

Edited May 12, 2016 by stusviews

[Teken]

LOL much better shape . . .

 

Didn't notice you added in the Minneapolis link and out of all of them that one looks to be in great shape. The one going for $900.XX is also in decent shape but has some blemishes on the front in the center unless thats a piece of fluff / dust. 

Edited May 12, 2016 by Teken

[larryllix]

LOL. With all that audiophile hype I thought it would at least be a tube amp and the tubes would be worth that much.

 

Those amps look really familiar from the good ole' days. These were the days when power ratings  had no "peak Watts", or "RMS Watts" or "Average Watts" rating BS, just real power and heated our houses too.

[larryllix]

 

The 50 year old amp I'm referring to sells for more than $1000 now. Sometimes, one is available on eBay for a bit less

 

BTW, I've been using floppy disks ever since they were 8" in diameter. You really fell into it if you pair $1000 for a box of 10. Were they gold plated?

 

Here's a current eBay link for the amp. I don't know why it has an Apple logo.

Yeah, the floppies were a typo. should have been $100 and hardsectored which lost out due to MS taking over and I had to drive to Toronto to get them, not found beside the kiddie candy at the grocery checkout as in later years.

Always wanted an 8" drive at home because they could handle 77 tracks and over 100K of storage. Makes ya' laugh now.

[stusviews]

I, too, was hesitant about a solid state McIntosh (not MacIntosh) amp--until I heard it. Here's what these amps sell for new.

 

I got most of my audio gear about 30 years ago. The amp was 20 years old then. The sound is incredible, especially after being services by Northridge Electronics.

[larryllix]

They must be running full class A push-pull outputs (think EasyBake)  to get that good a sound with the technology back then. I know FETs can do it better but the initial decades of solidstate transistors had a nasty crossover distortion.

 

The tube amps, cherished so much, had much higher levels of distortion but peoplr liked it 'cause it was "good" distortion and not harsh to the human ear.

[stusviews]

BTW, McInstosh amps have always been conservatively rated. I also have a 50wpc amp (MC250), that was tested by McIntosh Labs (while I observed) at 75wpc and still within rated distortion levels.

 

I have to admit, I've never heard of "good" distortion

[larryllix]

BTW, McInstosh amps have always been conservatively rated. I also have a 50wpc amp (MC250), that was tested by McIntosh Labs (while I observed) at 75wpc and still within rated distortion levels.

 

I have to admit, I've never heard of "good" distortion

Tube amps with 2-5% distrotion were very common. They were not all that great of a quality.

 

When the solidstate amps came into being even with low 0.1 - 0.5% distortion figures people didn't like the sound of them. The crossover distortion from the class AB or class B amplifiers switching from push to puil annoys human ears and left engineers wondering why.

 

Tubes have smother crossover in a gentler linear switching fashion. Their 2-5% distortion figures are mostly harmonic distortion and smotther to human ears. Think winding lead guitars with the smooth distortion eg: Carlos Santana, Eric Clapton etc.. It just isn't as annoying and simulates the harmonics naturally found in many instruments.

 

I think the crossover distortion is also consatnt with transistor switching so that very soft levels of music leave crossover distortion figures into the 10-20% distortion at low levels. Of course they always rate them at full output where the distortion is a low percentage. Harmonic distortion is typically a fixed ratio to the volume.

 

Many claim CDs have a terrible sound and the sampling frequency (44.1kHz?) math proves they do, at high frequencies.

 

This sounds like your expensive amps use Class A outputs and no transistor crossover switching distortion is heard simulating the old tube smoothness. I bet it gets hot when it works though..