Insteon 3-Way (2nd switch FOUND)

[larryllix]

Not necessarily...  When I lived in one of the Chicago suburbs (conduit required by code), I had to pull some extra conductors through various parts of the house, and in order to ensure that I didn't confuse myself I chose colors that weren't already used anywhere in the house -- orange, yellow, and light blue.  Because I had to wire the basement for a rec room and a workshop later on, I saved money by buying 500' spools of the orange and yellow -- the point being that the basement got wired with white, orange, and yellow wiring, all completely legit, per code (it was inspected and passed), and not at all "control cable".

 

Also, using the conduit as ground was completely acceptable in Chicago and surrounding counties.  I did pull one run to my home office for the computer equipment with a ground wire and it's own outlet -- if I recall correctly, one uses a specially marked and colored outlet to signify such a dedicated run.

 

Regarding the original post, I think code demands a switch at each entrance to an attached garage.  So removing the switch by that door, unless the door is permanently sealed and completely inoperable (not just "unused, it has to be sealed in some way), it may be a code violation to remove that switch.  Just sayin.

Definitely all possible. We used thinwall or flex, as ground, a long time ago, though. It had to be run with metal studs for some time.

The colours could definitely be nice to identify wire usage and he stated there was conduit and if the price was right?

 

We'll see if the neutral is blue though.

[apostolakisl]

I'm sure conduit as a ground is electrically sound, but it isn't code around here.  Grounded conduit or not, you are required to have a ground wire here.

 

It really doesn't matter.  You just need to figure out which wire at box a is the other end of the same wire at box b, and so on.  While I'm sure that many of us who have screwed around with these a bunch could do this without unhooking everything and ohming it out, it is kind of hard to figure this out any other way when using a forum as the only means of communication.

 

Keeping the eye on the ball, you need a hot, neutral, and load wire at the switch box and at the fixture you need the other end of the load wire and a neutral.  Anything else is capped.  The only trick is that it is possible that one of those wires may need to be spliced through at the unused switch box.

[KHouse]

Since the switches are inside the garage at the man-door, the seond switch may have been intended for a light outside that door--do you have a light there?

 

Al

 

Thanks Al.

 

You're probably right.  There is no light there...but maybe they planned for one and in the end it didn't work out?  Or...they sided over the location of the "outdoor" box and who knows where it's at.  We'll be re-doing the siding in the next year or so...so I guess we'll find out.  Again, that one switch only has 1 wire coming into it...so don't think it actually operates anything.

[KHouse]

Thanks everyone for the replies and help.  Unfortunately yesterday I got way more involved with cleaning out the attic than I had planned, and since I had some friends over helping we went into that project for the full day, and I was unable to look at this switch.

 

Now that that is over... back to this switch.  I'll grab the info some of you requested (voltage readings, etc), and report back this evening when I get home from work.  Thanks again for everyones help!  Really hoping we can figure this out!

[stusviews]

It's already figured out. What connects to what depends on your readings

[KHouse]

It's already figured out. What connects to what depends on your readings

 

   Sounds good.  I'll report back with the readings later on today.

[KHouse]

Sorry I could not get the #'s last night (late at work), but grabbed them this morning.  Disconnected the wires at the fixtures, and disconnected the wires at the switches.  Circuit breaker back on, this is what I get:

 

Box #1 (Inside the house - will be Switchlinc).  Has multiple wires in it.  Several blues capped together, several whites capped together, several reds capped together.

 

Switch: 3 Orange wires.  All read 0 volts.

 

Box # 2 (Soon to be Defunct / Remove Box).  Just the orange wires, blue wire, and 1 white wire by itself not connected to anything (reads 0 volts).

 

Switch: 2 orange wires.  Both read 0 volts.  1 blue wire.  Reads 120 volts.  (connected to the black screw, then continues on to the single pole switch next to it).

 

Light Fixtures:

Orange wire reads 0 volts.

White wire reads 0 volts.

 

A couple of the fixtures have multiple orange and white wires, and a  couple of them have a single white and single orange wire.

One light fixture box has a blue wire that goes into the box, then back out of the box not connected to anything.  The remainder of the boxes have no other wires in them.

 

Pictures for reference.

 

Thanks again for everyone's help!!

 

*To mwester's earlier point.  I am in the Chicago suburbs as well.  House built in the early 1990's.  No ground wire anywhere....just the conduit/boxes for grounding.

 

**I put some electrical tape and/or duct tape on the wires as a reference to what wire is what so that I could put it back together the same way.  Those pieces of tape were not there before.

 

***Pictures attached of Box 1, Box 2, Fixture Wiring, and Outside Fixture (the fixtures are fluorescent shop lights, which are hard wired to the fixture boxes).

 

Sorry about the picture orientation.  Doesn't matter how I orient them, the forum turns them when I upload them.

Edited May 17, 2016 by KHouse

[larryllix]

Sorry I could not get the #'s last night (late at work), but grabbed them this morning.  Disconnected the wires at the fixtures, and disconnected the wires at the switches.  Circuit breaker back on, this is what I get:

 

Box #1 (Inside the house - will be Switchlinc).  Has multiple wires in it.  Several blues capped together, several whites capped together, several reds capped together.

 

Switch: 3 Orange wires.  All read 0 volts.

 

Box # 2 (Soon to be Defunct / Remove Box).  Just the orange wires, blue wire, and 1 white wire by itself not connected to anything (reads 0 volts).

 

Switch: 2 orange wires.  Both read 0 volts.  1 blue wire.  Reads 120 volts.  (connected to the black screw, then continues on to the single pole switch next to it).

 

Light Fixtures:

Orange wire reads 0 volts.

White wire reads 0 volts.

 

<snippage>

You removed the wires at the fixtures nullifying the purpose of the testing at the switch wires.

 

Since the "Soon to be defunct" switch wiring was all dead I conclude you have the 3way switches in the neutral and more rewiring will be necessary to make a SwitchLinc work.

 

The feed to the light string  will have to be found.

Edited May 17, 2016 by larryllix

[KHouse]

You removed the wires at the fixtures nullifying the purpose of the testing at the switch wires.

 

Since the "Soon to be defunct" switch wiring was all dead I conclude you have the 3way switches in the neutral and more rewiring will be necessary to make a SwitchLinc work.

 

The feed to the light string  will have to be found.

 

Earlier apostolakisl mentioned I needed to disconnect all the wires, including at the fixtures.  Should I reconnect the fixtures and get another reading at the switches?

 

The soon to be defunct switch had the blue wire, which was the only wire that read voltage.  The switch which I would like to be the Switchlinc has all orange wires, all of which had 0 readings.

[apostolakisl]

Earlier apostolakisl mentioned I needed to disconnect all the wires, including at the fixtures.  Should I reconnect the fixtures and get another reading at the switches?

 

The soon to be defunct switch had the blue wire, which was the only wire that read voltage.  The switch which I would like to be the Switchlinc has all orange wires, all of which had 0 readings.

 

If you disconnected everything and now you get power on 1 wire at one box, you know where your hot is entering the system.  If that hot is in the box where you want the switch, then that part is done.  If not, you need to find a path to get the hot to the switchbox.  This is where ohming out the other wires comes in.  You find a wire that goes from hot location to switchbox, then you splice them.  You might need to go through the fixture box to get there depending on how it was wired in the first place.  Then you need a wire that goes from switchbox to fixture for the load.  You already have neutrals at all locations as I understand.  So at this point your done.

 

Process to follow

1) Cap and mark your hot

2) At the switchbox, splice one of the wires (not the hot) to ground/neutral

3) Go to fixture box and test each wire to ground.  If one of those wires has 0 resistance, then you can mark off that wire as the load wire.

4) If none of the wires ohm out to 0, then go to the other switch box and find the wire there.  label each end the same for future reference

5) Repeat for the other wires in the primary switch box.

 

At that point, you might be done provided you can get hot and a load wire to the switchbox.  If not, you need to go to the other switchbox and do the same process.  Once you have all the wires labeled, you connect what needs to be connected to get a load and a hot at the switchbox.

Edited May 17, 2016 by apostolakisl

[KHouse]

Inside the switch box, there are a bunch of blues capped off together.  Would this maybe be the HOT coming in, and then one of the splices runs out to that defunct box?

 

If so, could I just take power from this group of capped blue wires for the HOT I need for the Switchlinc?

 

 

[KHouse]

Or...would it just be easiest for me to pickup another Switchlinc, put one in both boxes, and wire accordingly for 2 Switchlincs in a "3-way" (controller / responder)?

 

If that's the easiest route to go, I'd spend the $50 and be done.  If it is, could someone explain how to wire that, and that's what I'll do?

 

Or if Ohm'ing everything out is best, I'll do that.

[apostolakisl]

Inside the switch box, there are a bunch of blues capped off together.  Would this maybe be the HOT coming in, and then one of the splices runs out to that defunct box?

 

If so, could I just take power from this group of capped blue wires for the HOT I need for the Switchlinc?

 

Yes, you could leave them together and add your switchlinc hot to the mix.  Do your other boxes have any blue wires?  Are they also hot?  If not, then this means the hot has entered that box on one of those blues and then got spliced to the other blues to deliver power to something else unrelated, like a different light or outlet. 

[KHouse]

No other boxes we have looked at have a blue in it...except for one of the fixtures which has a blue come in the box and out of the box (passing through the box) but not connected to anything.

[apostolakisl]

No other boxes we have looked at have a blue in it...except for one of the fixtures which has a blue come in the box and out of the box (passing through the box) but not connected to anything.

OK, then no need to unhook the spliced blues.  They obviously have daisy chained the hots through that box to get power to some other box for something else.  If you did take them apart, you would need to resplice them since presumably something down stream would go dead if you didn't.

 

If I understand correctly, your hot blues are in the box that you are putting the switchlinc.  If so, all you need now is a wire between that box and the fixture.  This is your load.

Edited May 17, 2016 by apostolakisl

[KHouse]

Yes, you understand correctly.  It seems like the blues in the box are hots.  So then splice in my LINE from the Switchlinc into the bundle of blues?

 

As for the LOAD to the fixtures...I assume it's got to be one of the tow travelers I connect to?  How do I determine which/what is the LOAD?

 

And then what do I do with the wiring at the defunct box?  Just disconnect and cap everything?

Edited May 17, 2016 by KHouse

[apostolakisl]

Yes, you understand correctly.  It seems like the blues in the box are hots.  So then splice in my LINE from the Switchlinc into the bundle of blues?

 

As for the LOAD to the fixtures...I assume it's got to be one of the tow travelers I connect to?  How do I determine which/what is the LOAD?

 

And then what do I do with the wiring at the defunct box?  Just disconnect and cap everything?

 

Yes, put the black wire on the insteon switch to the blues.

 

Well one trick is to do the ohming out to find a wire that would work for the load.

 

The other thing you can do is connect the other wires to your hot one at a time and look for one of the wires at the fixture to be hot.  When you find one, connect it to the load wire on the insteon switch and connect the end at the fixture to the hot on the light.

 

Just cap the wires at the other box and any unused wires at the other two boxes.  If there are multiple neutrals, keep them spliced together.   Otherwise, cap the rest separately.  

Edited May 17, 2016 by apostolakisl

[KHouse]

In the second example, you're saying to take one of the three orange wires, and connect it to the blues. Then test the fixture orange wire. If that wire shows voltage (hot)...then that would become the LOAD wire.

 

Try the three orange wires one by one until I get HOT at the fixtures?

[apostolakisl]

In the second example, you're saying to take one of the three orange wires, and connect it to the blues. Then test the fixture orange wire. If that wire shows voltage (hot)...then that would become the LOAD wire.

 

Try the three orange wires one by one until I get HOT at the fixtures?

Yes.  Just don't get shocked.

 

If indeed one of those wires that you connect at the switchlinc box is hot at the fixture, then use this wire to connect to the red (load) lead on the Insteon switch and the other end connects to the hot on the light.  You stated you had neutrals already at both boxes so connect the fixture and switchlinc neutrals to the neutrals already there.

[KHouse]

Yes.  Just don't get shocked.

 

If indeed one of those wires that you connect at the switchlinc box is hot at the fixture, then use this wire to connect to the red (load) lead on the Insteon switch and the other end connects to the hot on the light.  You stated you had neutrals already at both boxes so connect the fixture and switchlinc neutrals to the neutrals already there.

 

So I have neutrals in the switch boxes, in the fixture box, theres just an orange and a white (which are both hard wired to the light fixture).  No separate neutrals capped together, like in the switch boxes.  I assume this is how it should be?  The white (neutral?) in the fixture box connects to the fixture.  Sorry, still trying to learn all the lingo and what is found in what box.  To date, my experience has been only with Switchlincs, the Garage Opener kit, and integrating smoke alarms (wireless).  Nothing with actual fixtures yet...so don't know if just two wires (orange and white) is correct, or if there should be two wires and then some capped off neutrals in the box too (like in the switch boxes).

 

I think that's a silly question...but just want to be sure.  Doesn't take more than 2 minutes to ask and hopefully not burn down the house!

Edited May 18, 2016 by KHouse

[KHouse]

Ok.  I think we got it.

 

The switch had 3 oranges.  1 went UP in the box, and 2 went out of the side.  A blue also went UP, so figured that orange is the standout, and the likely wire to the fixtures.

 

Connected that orange to the LOAD, the LINE to the blues, and the neutral to the new netruals.

 

Breaker back ON, switch OFF, no volts on the orange at the fixture.  Switch turned ON...120 volts!

 

I think that means we have it.  Going to re-wire the fixtures, cap everything in the defunct box, and the Switchlinc is already wired up.  But...how the heck am I going to fit all these wires and the oversized switchlinc box back into this box.  No idea.

 

I'll report back once I have lights that turn on and off.

[KHouse]

Well folks, looks like we have success!

 

In the switchbox, Switchlinc LINE to the blues, LOAD to the one orange which goes to the fixtures, neutral to neutrals, (no ground), capped the other two orange wires (travelers).

 

In the defunct box.  Removed both switches, capped all the wires individually.  Will get a plate cover tomorrow, cut out the pegboard around this box, and we're done.

 

Everything is in, some special organizing was necessary to make the Switchlinc fit, but we're all good to.  Breaker is on, lights work.

 

Now to add this new switch to the ISY and create some programs for them.

 

Thanks to apostolakisl, stusviews, larryllix, mwester, oberke, paulbates, and algorithm for all of your help.  And especially thanks to apostolakisl for walking me through these last few steps.  It's awesome to have a great forum/resource like this to turn to.